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bobgeorge
07-14-2011, 10:12 PM
All, are there currently any new drivers that come with shafts 45" or less in length?

I have Nike MS Black that I cut down to 44.75" shaft length.

m-910
07-14-2011, 10:19 PM
I think the standard might be more like 45.75...

HoosierGolfer
07-14-2011, 11:17 PM
The standard has come up in the race for more distance. In truth, it comes down to your fitting, and what it shows. There is a optimal length for everyone, and it is more often than not, shorter than the length offered off the rack.

JRod
07-14-2011, 11:23 PM
Most "normal" drivers are 46" now, with tour models being 45.5 and 45.75"

JWLI
07-14-2011, 11:55 PM
Most "normal" drivers are 46" now, with tour models being 45.5 and 45.75"

...and the ones that actually work are at least an inch shorter :D

JRod
07-15-2011, 12:12 AM
...and the ones that actually work are at least an inch shorter :D

I would agree. I play a 45" driver. To each their own.

Danilo
07-15-2011, 12:22 AM
...and the ones that actually work are at least an inch shorter :D

All fitting...

Thainer21
07-15-2011, 12:31 AM
i play 45"

RedRum
07-15-2011, 02:16 AM
Seems Tour Edge Exotics Drivers usually come with 45" shafts... Mine did, but it is 3 years old now.

JWLI
07-15-2011, 09:58 AM
All fitting...

I won't disagree with fitting, but I'd say that in the "Best use of a hacksaw in all of golf" category, going an inch shorter would benefit most people most of the time.

JB
07-15-2011, 10:02 AM
going an inch shorter would benefit most people most of the time.

Up until a few years ago I would agree with you. Still do for a lot of golfers. But I would not say most anymore. Lighter and larger club heads have changed the way shafts can be made. So have better shaft technology and longer shafts dont have to be whippy anymore.

When we tested it last year, longer shafts gave more distance without sacrificing a huge amount of shot dispersion for the 14 golfers tested. All with indexes ranging from 14-24
Of course we only tested between 46 and 45 or close to thereabouts.

JWLI
07-15-2011, 10:26 AM
Up until a few years ago I would agree with you. Still do for a lot of golfers. But I would not say most anymore. Lighter and larger club heads have changed the way shafts can be made. So have better shaft technology and longer shafts dont have to be whippy anymore.

When we tested it last year, longer shafts gave more distance without sacrificing a huge amount of shot dispersion for the 14 golfers tested. All with indexes ranging from 14-24
Of course we only tested between 46 and 45 or close to thereabouts.

I'd agree with you in two aspects:
1. A beginner or very inexperienced golfer
2. A more experienced golfer who has grown up in the age of longer drivers.

In the case of all others, I think going from what was considered more or less "standard" (42" to 44" category) to something reaching 46" or more can be something that's hard to get used to; not just physically but mentally as well (in the way that some folks just will never get their heads around using a long putter).
In the case of the two other examples, the beginner and the "modern" golfer either have no idea of what a "good" length is or are at least well aware that long drivers exist and have no preconceived ideas of what a "proper" length is and would be more open to experimenting and would likely be more accepting of modern lengths.

Then there's the issue of a 46" driver simply being unnatural to begin with. Back when everything was based upon wrist-to-floor measurements, the natural progression of club lengths pretty much stopped at 43 inches for the driver and possibly 44 for someone extremely tall. So the notion of a 46" or longer driver is somewhat unnatural to begin with and I think the biggest concern I have with them is having them become a "special" club with a "special" swing. Let's face it, it's hard enough to learn a basic swing that can be used throughout the bag. To then add a special flatter swing for just the driver can complicate things quite a bit and can lead to a lot of confusion.

I've tried longer drivers in the past and have gone as long as 45 1/2 inches and I'll be the first to admit that when I connected with them perfectly, they were cannons. But I found that the percentage of pure hits versus all of the "other" hits was too small to justify the length and I went back to what I have now which is 44 1/4" and I'm hitting my drives very long and more importantly very straight.

I don't think that 46" drivers should be eliminated because there will certainly be a group of players who can hit them well. I just think that that group will never become the majority of golfers.

JB
07-15-2011, 10:30 AM
So the notion of a 46" or longer driver is somewhat unnatural to begin with and I think the biggest concern I have with them is having them become a "special" club with a "special" swing. Let's face it, it's hard enough to learn a basic swing that can be used throughout the bag. To then add a special flatter swing for just the driver can complicate things quite a bit and can lead to a lot of confusion.


Only for those that grew up playing shorter drivers. As you mentioned, everything is getting longer because shaft technology can allow that and for many many golfers, the difference between 46" and 44" is just not that much.

Those that grew up with the shorter drivers also in most cases grew up with smaller club heads. And while we heard the exact same thing when those came out (too big, accuracy suffers, etc), they adjusted over time and it is really almost the exception now instead of the rule when they are smaller. The same thing will happen here.

JWLI
07-15-2011, 10:46 AM
Only for those that grew up playing shorter drivers. As you mentioned, everything is getting longer because shaft technology can allow that and for many many golfers, the difference between 46" and 44" is just not that much.

Those that grew up with the shorter drivers also in most cases grew up with smaller club heads. And while we heard the exact same thing when those came out (too big, accuracy suffers, etc), they adjusted over time and it is really almost the exception now instead of the rule when they are smaller. The same thing will happen here.

Absolutely.

People can adjust to anything given time.
But I think that at least for now, no matter what the technology, it will still take some time for the majority of players to be able to successfully incorporate the flatter swing of a long driver into their games.
Who knows? Ten years from now a 46 inch driver may be considered short. But in the case of clubheads as you mentioned, the length of the club itself didn't change and I think that made it easier for people to adjust to the larger head. But the average height and overall proportions of a typical human are not going to change all that much so I DO believe that there is (or will be) a "length limit" on drivers and technology - no matter how advanced - will not be able to overcome that.

JB
07-15-2011, 10:50 AM
Absolutely.

People can adjust to anything given time.
But I think that at least for now, no matter what the technology, it will still take some time for the majority of players to be able to successfully incorporate the flatter swing of a long driver into their games.
Who knows? Ten years from now a 46 inch driver may be considered short. But in the case of clubheads as you mentioned, the length of the club itself didn't change and I think that made it easier for people to adjust to the larger head. But the average height and overall proportions of a typical human are not going to change all that much so I DO believe that there is (or will be) a "length limit" on drivers and technology - no matter how advanced - will not be able to overcome that.

There already is a length limit. We are not there yet. On THP Radio we had a shaft expert talk about this and he spoke exactly of the larger club heads being the main cause of longer shafts as most testing for them, showed that with the larger heads the shafts appeared short. He also went on to speak about the club head weight being far less and because of that, balance became an issue.

Most of the time those that are not "happy" with it are only those that grew up in the previous era of smaller club heads, steel driver shafts and drivers that were between 42-44". Not a knock on them or anything wrong with that, just another aspect of the game that is changing as technology in the shaft industry has gotten better.

JWLI
07-15-2011, 10:55 AM
There already is a length limit. We are not there yet. On THP Radio we had a shaft expert talk about this and he spoke exactly of the larger club heads being the main cause of longer shafts as most testing for them, showed that with the larger heads the shafts appeared short. He also went on to speak about the club head weight being far less and because of that, balance became an issue.

Most of the time those that are not "happy" with it are only those that grew up in the previous era of smaller club heads, steel driver shafts and drivers that were between 42-44". Not a knock on them or anything wrong with that, just another aspect of the game that is changing as technology in the shaft industry has gotten better.

LOL!

It's funny you should mention that because I was just thinking about that the other day. I think the reason I like my 425 head is that a 460 head on a 44 1/4" shaft looks weird and makes the club seem more like a toy than a tool. But at my length, the 425 head seems perfect.

Of course back when I was using wooden drivers, I thought my MacGregor M-85 head looked perfect too, so I guess it goes back to what you said about getting used to things. :D

JB
07-15-2011, 10:56 AM
LOL!

It's funny you should mention that because I was just thinking about that the other day. I think the reason I like my 425 head is that a 460 head on a 44 1/4" shaft looks weird and makes the club seem more like a toy than a tool. But at my length, the 425 head seems perfect.

Of course back when I was using wooden drivers, I thought my MacGregor M-85 head looked perfect too, so I guess it goes back to what you said about getting used to things. :D

HAHA.
Sure does.

bobgeorge
07-15-2011, 11:45 AM
For people that had fittings, do they ever recommend a shorter shaft than the stock lenght?

JB
07-15-2011, 11:51 AM
For people that had fittings, do they ever recommend a shorter shaft than the stock lenght?

Absolutely.

Canio
07-15-2011, 12:32 PM
I started golf with the persimmon heads with the steel shafts at about 43" length. I was lucky to hit a drive 220. It was really hit or miss on getting a driver that worked for you. I remember a picture of Arnold Palmer in his workshop with around 150 or more drivers that he had. I then had the fortune of discovering the Ping drivers again around 43". I think that they were the absolute BEST wood drivers ever! They were SO sweet. My distance increased to 240-250 with the Ping.

In the 80s I switched to the first TaylorMade metal wood burners with steel shafts, I think the length was still 43-44". The 3W TM went 230-240 and the driver increased to 260-270. My first graphite shaft was a Bob Mann driver at 45". Yep, mail order that I bought without trying it out at all. That driver was the best driver I've ever had. My distance increased to 280-300+, the max of my distance. I snapped the shaft in that driver and was never able to find an equal shaft to replace it.

From there I went to Callaway Big Berthas, Pings to my present Cleveland Launcher in lengths around 45". I never bought but I did try a Killer Bee at 48". I just could NOT control it at all. My distances came down as my age and handicap increased. I presently hit to about a 240-250 average to an very occasional 270-280.

I welcome any and all tech advances and increased shaft length. I'm sure that OG has the same memories! LOL!

lambertgolf
07-16-2011, 06:00 PM
The shorter the driver is the more control you have the less spin that is produced.

JB
07-16-2011, 06:02 PM
The shorter the driver is the more control you have the less spin that is produced.

Not always. While this can be the norm for many, it would depend on quite a lot of factors including arm length.
Also, there are many amateurs that need more spin, not less spin. It can create a higher ball flight producing more carry.

JRod
07-16-2011, 07:27 PM
For people that had fittings, do they ever recommend a shorter shaft than the stock lenght?

Yep I am pretty tall at 6'6" and was fit for a shaft .75" shorter than stock.

10YardDraw
07-16-2011, 08:53 PM
The 910 plays at 45", i play all my drivers at 45" so im glad it came at that length

McKillian
07-17-2011, 05:37 PM
I actually toyed with the idea to hack off 2 inches from one of the shafts I have for my 4dx. I rarely use it, and it would be fun to try a 42-43 (not sure if the shaft is 45 or 44) and really let it rip. Anyone tried it? I guess you loose some lenght and the shaft stiffens up a bit, But is it marginal or will it feel like hitting with a 2x4 plank?

HoosierGolfer
07-17-2011, 06:02 PM
I actually toyed with the idea to hack off 2 inches from one of the shafts I have for my 4dx. I rarely use it, and it would be fun to try a 42-43 (not sure if the shaft is 45 or 44) and really let it rip. Anyone tried it? I guess you loose some lenght and the shaft stiffens up a bit, But is it marginal or will it feel like hitting with a 2x4 plank?

I hit a 44 inch driver as far if not further than one longer. It is all about finding your optimal numbers. Cutting from the butt end will have very little to no effect on changing the shaft flex.

McKillian
07-17-2011, 06:14 PM
Great news. IŽll stop by a shop on my lunch tomorrow and buy a new grip. Then the shaft goes into the table saw. Man, this is going to be fun!

McKillian
07-19-2011, 10:29 AM
http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l561/McKillian/270403_10150237109102981_630462980_7287363_2724153 _n.jpg

HereŽs an afterpicture. I sawed off 5 centimeters, roughly 2 inches of my proforce V2 66g regular and put on a new golfpride velvet grip.

Hit the course yesterday for a quick 9 holes after a quick 20 balls warm-up.
Did it stiffen up? Yes, its a bit stiffer than before. based on feel alone IŽd say somewhere in between regular and stiff.
I did hit a couple of nice drives with it and I canŽt say I lost a lot of lenght off tee. Its hard to say when you donŽt have a monitor. I played my home course so I have a pretty fair estimate as to where my drives usually land.

The big wow-moment was on misshits, they lost a lot of side spinn which for me is great news.

The hardest part was tempo, the shortened shaft made me a bit overconfident so I overswung a bit on the last couple of holes.

2 inches might not sound like much, but the club almost feels like a toy.
I had a 44 inch shaft to start with (from the top of the clubhead to butt) and now its 42 inches.

IŽll hopefully get in a good 18 holes tomorrow at a pretty narrow course, it should be a good test!


ed: I hope you guys can see the picture.

bobgeorge
07-19-2011, 09:38 PM
I went to the Nike Facebook page & ask them what the effect of taking an inch off the MS Black & then is the reply I got:

"It shouldn't affect the stiffness that much...but at most: 2-3 CPM’s. The swing weight will be affected anywhere from 4-6 swing weights…if you want you can add some lead tape to the bottom of the head and every 1 inch of lead tape = 2grams added swing weight. Hope that helps!"

I am not really sure what CPMs are? Also on swing weight...since he is talking about adding swingweight I assume taking an inch off makes the swing weight lighter.

JWLI
07-20-2011, 04:04 PM
I went to the Nike Facebook page & ask them what the effect of taking an inch off the MS Black & then is the reply I got:

"It shouldn't affect the stiffness that much...but at most: 2-3 CPM’s. The swing weight will be affected anywhere from 4-6 swing weights…if you want you can add some lead tape to the bottom of the head and every 1 inch of lead tape = 2grams added swing weight. Hope that helps!"

I am not really sure what CPMs are? Also on swing weight...since he is talking about adding swingweight I assume taking an inch off makes the swing weight lighter.

CPM is Cycles Per Minute. In simple terms, it measures the amont of vibration in a shaft. To do this a shaft is fixed parallel to the ground with the butt end locked in a vise and the tip end is pulled downward to a fixed point and then let go. The shaft will vibrate up and down past parallel and that whole motion is a Cycle. The amount of times the shaft vibrates above and below parallel (a full cycle) as it expends its energy for one minute until it becomes still is represented as CPM. The more cycles it takes to stop the shaft, the stiffer the shaft and the less cycles, the more flexible the shaft. This is all usually measured over a period of one second and a multiplier is then used to represent the cycles as a more readable whole number rather than a single number with a whole bunch of little numbers after the decimal point.

For example, a typical stiff driver shaft may have a CPM of, say, 270 while a more flexible shaft may have a CPM of 260 and so on. So taking an inch off of the butt end of the shaft will have a negligible effect on CPM (but probably more than just 2 or 3 CPM). Going beyond an inch will begin to have a more definable effect on shaft stiffness (mainly in the butt end).

As far as swingweight goes, swingweight is basically a measurement of how much a club balances towards the clubhead in relation to the rest of the club and is measured from a standard point or fulcrum which is 14-inches from the butt end of the club.
By taking an inch off the back of the shaft, you've brought the head closer to the fulcrum point and that will make the head feel lighter. To compensate for this, you need to add weight to the head to regain the original feel or balance.
It's been my experience that 3 swingweight points are lost for every half-inch of material removed from the butt end of the shaft. This can vary from shaft to shaft but it's a good average to go by. I've always used 1/2-inch wide lead tape for weighting and at that width it takes about 3-inches of tape to equal one swingweight point (or roughly 3 grams, which is equal to a swingweight point), so in your case you'd need a fair amount of tape (about 18 inches) to compensate for the inch removed from the butt.
That sounds like a lot of tape but for a modern driver head it's really not as much as you might think.If your driver head has removable weights, it's much neater to just buy some heavier weights and change them out and then if there's any "fine tuning" needed, a small piece of tape can be used to get to an exact weight if that's what you're looking for.

Hope this helps! :D

bobgeorge
07-20-2011, 07:52 PM
Thanks JWIL,

That is a lot of great info! The Nike Machspeed Black does't have any screws to adjust. I just at the specs for the club & it say swing weigh is D3-D5 cutting an inch must make it a D0. Do you lead tape to the back or bottom of a club?

JWLI
07-20-2011, 08:01 PM
Thanks JWIL,

That is a lot of great info! The Nike Machspeed Black does't have any screws to adjust. I just at the specs for the club & it say swing weigh is D3-D5 cutting an inch must make it a D0. Do you lead tape to the back or bottom of a club?

I've always believed that the best place for weight is directly behind the face so on a driver I usually put tape above the trailing edge and up onto the body.

Butters
07-21-2011, 11:06 AM
I'm thinking about buying a SF 2.0 and cutting that down to 45". I'm only 5'6" and find that the shorter shafts help with my timing.

lcsmrtn
07-21-2011, 11:10 AM
I'm thinking about buying a SF 2.0 and cutting that down to 45". I'm only 5'6" and find that the shorter shafts help with my timing.

It's what I've done and it's made me a lot more accurate. Lost a touch of distance but being in the fairway more often is way better!

Butters
07-21-2011, 11:12 AM
Did you have to add any weight to the head?

lcsmrtn
07-21-2011, 11:18 AM
I put in a bit heavier shaft, but that's personal preference. I can't see that cutting that small an amount making a big difference in swingweight IMO. Try it out and see how it works, even by choking you'll be able to see if you can make out the difference.

liquidrage
07-21-2011, 11:27 AM
As I understand it a more flexible shaft helps close the clubface, so if I'm struggling with the occasional push-slice (it's not a horrible slice it's really a push with my normal fade in it) with the driver I probably shouldn't consider cutting it since it will stiffen up if ever so slightly making it slightly harder to close.

Or, would less length make the club easier to get around and close up overriding the minute change in stiffness?

It's an 08 Tour Burner 10.5 with stock Fujikura REAX 60g shaft.

I'm thinking of taking it down to 44.5 just to see and if not putting back in decent shaft. Or leaving it that way and picking up a new driver with an adjustable head so I can work out the push-slice on the range at neutral and play with a slight draw till I do.

JWLI
07-21-2011, 11:50 AM
As I understand it a more flexible shaft helps close the clubface, so if I'm struggling with the occasional push-slice (it's not a horrible slice it's really a push with my normal fade in it) with the driver I probably shouldn't consider cutting it since it will stiffen up if ever so slightly making it slightly harder to close.

Or, would less length make the club easier to get around and close up overriding the minute change in stiffness?

It's an 08 Tour Burner 10.5 with stock Fujikura REAX 60g shaft.

I'm thinking of taking it down to 44.5 just to see and if not putting back in decent shaft. Or leaving it that way and picking up a new driver with an adjustable head so I can work out the push-slice on the range at neutral and play with a slight draw till I do.

The old "Rule" used to be that if you're slicing, you'd need a more flexible shaft to promote more of a release to close the face.

But today, with all of the science surrounding the golf swing, the answer has to changed to: "It depends".
The flex of a shaft is largely determined by the way in which you load the shaft during your swing.
Generally, a good rule to follow is that if you swing smoothly and load the shaft evenly, then a more flexible shaft would help a slice.
But if you load the shaft aggressively from the top down, then a stiffer shaft will be more likely to help.
This is especially true with longer driver shafts and these days it's not uncommon for fitters to recommend shafts up to "X" flexes even for golfers with average swing speeds to compensate for the longer shaft being overly "whippy".

As always, the only way to tell for sure would be to go to a qualified fitter and get your swing / shaft checked out.