andimetrum
Impervious to calculation
Looking forward to hearing how it goes. I think just getting the custom fit will help immensely. Especially for a dude your size!
Moving on up: The GI to Forged Evolution
rocketman84
New member
- Thread starter
- #27
Alright, after a brief delay, here are the DAY ONE results...
First of all, I have to say that these irons look incredible at address. The smaller face and thinner topline make these (IMO) far superior than the GI's, as there is frankly less distraction when addressing the ball and therefore minimizes (or eliminates) one of the unavoidable 2,857 thoughts that enter your mind before hitting the damn thing. There is simply less club to take your eye off of the ball.
Now, I will speak to the downside (which, as I will explain, is actually an upside) of the aforementioned smaller face and thinner topline. These clubs, to be appreciated fully, need to be hit in the center of the clubface. I know this goes without saying, BUT my point is that the smaller profile of the club forces me to focus more on making "perfect" contact. With the GI irons of old, I didn't really think about where on the face I would need to hit the ball because the face was so big and forgiving. Oddly enough, in retrospect, I think that many of my mishits in the past may have been partially due to this lack of specificity at contact.
Moving on to the first few swings, I really like the hard-stepped stiff shafts. I know there were a few concerns from THPers about this being perhaps too drastic of a change from my old R flex irons, but I am happy to report that the swing feels more free and smoother without being overswung. Since this is such a personal aspect of these clubs, I won't dwell on the shafts.
Through impact, when struck well, these clubs feel incredible. It's hard to describe, except that the blend of strength and control with these heads is absolutely addictive. It makes you want to hit the sweet spot every time just for the FEEL of the ball "clicking" off of the grooves and leaving the earth like a rocket ship, spinning so fast that it feels like a breeze in your face. Okay, that last part might be a slight exaggeration, but you get the idea.
Considering the new clubs with their stiffer shafts and smaller heads with more specific faces, I was pleasantly surprised with how accurate these were right out of the gate. Beginning with the scoring irons and PW, it was like a point-and-shoot video game. Despite what you may have heard or read about these clubs being "only able to move the ball one way or the other", these clubs are dead-aim straight when you want them to be. And then like a disguise out of Get Smart, they take on a different character and produce a controllable and effective draw/fade of the ball on command. With the GI irons, I always felt like I had to change the ball placement, club face angle, swing plane and speed to move the ball at all, and even then it was a crap shoot as to how much the ball would move. These player irons, with their smaller, more specific faces (as you may have noticed, I am using 'more specific' as opposed to 'less forgiving', gotta stay positive!) really provide the tools to the player that is looking for a club that does what you want in a much more subtle way, giving you more confidence and a much more consistent swing throughout the bag. I simply cannot say enough about the feel of these clubs.
Now for the topic that we all would love to deny ever happens, but it does...I was dreading the mishits with these player irons. I will say that, unlike some of the threads I have read on THP, these are not as forgiving as GI irons. HOWEVER, I will say that mishits with these new sticks were not nearly as penalized as I had expected. Yes, I lost distance (10-20yds depending on the severity of the error) and yes I felt the feedback immediately in my hands. But, the shots still went straight AND the feedback was not painful at all. It's again difficult to put into words, but the feedback simply informed me WHERE on the face I had made contact that was not the sweet spot so that I could make the adjustment and correct the mistake. Amazing. This is an aspect of these clubs that I would encourage anyone considering making the switch to player irons to take heed of. GI clubs, because of their amazing forgiveness, do not give you the specific feedback that allows you to improve your contact in the way, oddly enough, that their name would suggest. If you want serious improvement of your ball striking, make the switch and then make the decision to commit to learning to hit these clubs well. That is all I can say about that. *Stepping down from soapbox*
Well, I hope that this first of many threads has been helpful or at least a little entertaining for those curious about the switch from GI clubs to player irons. There will be much more to come, including my next post which will discuss my first round on the course with the new player's irons.
Check back soon and find out more!
First of all, I have to say that these irons look incredible at address. The smaller face and thinner topline make these (IMO) far superior than the GI's, as there is frankly less distraction when addressing the ball and therefore minimizes (or eliminates) one of the unavoidable 2,857 thoughts that enter your mind before hitting the damn thing. There is simply less club to take your eye off of the ball.
Now, I will speak to the downside (which, as I will explain, is actually an upside) of the aforementioned smaller face and thinner topline. These clubs, to be appreciated fully, need to be hit in the center of the clubface. I know this goes without saying, BUT my point is that the smaller profile of the club forces me to focus more on making "perfect" contact. With the GI irons of old, I didn't really think about where on the face I would need to hit the ball because the face was so big and forgiving. Oddly enough, in retrospect, I think that many of my mishits in the past may have been partially due to this lack of specificity at contact.
Moving on to the first few swings, I really like the hard-stepped stiff shafts. I know there were a few concerns from THPers about this being perhaps too drastic of a change from my old R flex irons, but I am happy to report that the swing feels more free and smoother without being overswung. Since this is such a personal aspect of these clubs, I won't dwell on the shafts.
Through impact, when struck well, these clubs feel incredible. It's hard to describe, except that the blend of strength and control with these heads is absolutely addictive. It makes you want to hit the sweet spot every time just for the FEEL of the ball "clicking" off of the grooves and leaving the earth like a rocket ship, spinning so fast that it feels like a breeze in your face. Okay, that last part might be a slight exaggeration, but you get the idea.
Considering the new clubs with their stiffer shafts and smaller heads with more specific faces, I was pleasantly surprised with how accurate these were right out of the gate. Beginning with the scoring irons and PW, it was like a point-and-shoot video game. Despite what you may have heard or read about these clubs being "only able to move the ball one way or the other", these clubs are dead-aim straight when you want them to be. And then like a disguise out of Get Smart, they take on a different character and produce a controllable and effective draw/fade of the ball on command. With the GI irons, I always felt like I had to change the ball placement, club face angle, swing plane and speed to move the ball at all, and even then it was a crap shoot as to how much the ball would move. These player irons, with their smaller, more specific faces (as you may have noticed, I am using 'more specific' as opposed to 'less forgiving', gotta stay positive!) really provide the tools to the player that is looking for a club that does what you want in a much more subtle way, giving you more confidence and a much more consistent swing throughout the bag. I simply cannot say enough about the feel of these clubs.
Now for the topic that we all would love to deny ever happens, but it does...I was dreading the mishits with these player irons. I will say that, unlike some of the threads I have read on THP, these are not as forgiving as GI irons. HOWEVER, I will say that mishits with these new sticks were not nearly as penalized as I had expected. Yes, I lost distance (10-20yds depending on the severity of the error) and yes I felt the feedback immediately in my hands. But, the shots still went straight AND the feedback was not painful at all. It's again difficult to put into words, but the feedback simply informed me WHERE on the face I had made contact that was not the sweet spot so that I could make the adjustment and correct the mistake. Amazing. This is an aspect of these clubs that I would encourage anyone considering making the switch to player irons to take heed of. GI clubs, because of their amazing forgiveness, do not give you the specific feedback that allows you to improve your contact in the way, oddly enough, that their name would suggest. If you want serious improvement of your ball striking, make the switch and then make the decision to commit to learning to hit these clubs well. That is all I can say about that. *Stepping down from soapbox*
Well, I hope that this first of many threads has been helpful or at least a little entertaining for those curious about the switch from GI clubs to player irons. There will be much more to come, including my next post which will discuss my first round on the course with the new player's irons.
Check back soon and find out more!
cmoors
Resident Swinger
I love this thread because I'm doing relatively the opposite 
We're both 12 handicaps, so this will be a good test. I went from a "Game Enhancement" club (Cobra FPs) to a "Game Improvement" club.
The only thing I'm not sure of is how much the shaft change effected my ballstriking vs. the head change, since I changed both. I'm starting to think the shaft fitting had way more to do with it (it being better ballstriking) than the head change (for me).
Let's hope we both get lower
We're both 12 handicaps, so this will be a good test. I went from a "Game Enhancement" club (Cobra FPs) to a "Game Improvement" club.
The only thing I'm not sure of is how much the shaft change effected my ballstriking vs. the head change, since I changed both. I'm starting to think the shaft fitting had way more to do with it (it being better ballstriking) than the head change (for me).
Let's hope we both get lower
im digging this thread...I switched about a month ago from TM Burners to TM combo MB/MC and am having some difficulty. I started out much like you, very optimistic. First I was missing on the heel and now i'm missing on the toe. Its driving me crazy. I played in a scramble last week and had so many bad shots. I will say that I have zero confidence standing over the ball right now because of all the misses. Im going to stick it out for the rest of the year....hopefully I can work things out. If not, im going back to my burners. Any way, I will enjoy watching and learning from your journey since im right there with you. Best of luck!!
- Admin
- #32
I am enjoying your feedback and glad you like your new clubs.
But I could not disagree more with this statement.
This is something that I believe some want to convince themselves that a players iron will work better for them. Its not a training aid. My opinion anyway.
I play and have almost every set of irons on the market today. GI irons offer plenty of feedback and the minute I miss even by a single groove high or low or mm's out on the toe or heel, the feedback tells me so. Its not the same jarring feedback you get from a 70s blade, but there is feedback there.
With the logic above, why do we not all use smaller headed drivers to tee off with so that we can improve our tee game? Using something smaller that provides more feedback does not mean one will improve their ball striking. It means one CAN improve their ball striking, the same way one CAN improve their ball striking with any irons. Its about learning how to swing the club properly. No iron in the world will do that for a golfer and the notion that because it has a smaller "sweet spot" that it will train someone to be a better ball striker is just not true in my opinion.
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the_paulo
Euro target practice
Thanks for the update Rocketman, nice write up.
I'm not so sure you can teach yourself better striking from your mishits either (it tends to just dent my confidence more than anything), but if it works for you then good news.
I'm not so sure you can teach yourself better striking from your mishits either (it tends to just dent my confidence more than anything), but if it works for you then good news.
I'm enjoying reading your thread Rocket. Good luck with the new irons.
RadRob
Active member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2011
- Messages
- 2,006
- Reaction score
- 6
- Location
- San Luis Obispo County, California
- Handicap
- 13 GHIN
I wanted to respond to JB's quote above. In general, I agree with this view. If a person wants to become a better ball striker then the main components are their abilities, desire and practice. But I also believe that the equipment can make a difference.
I've spent 35 years golfing (off and on) and have never developed a consistent swing. That's mostly because I haven't taken golf all that seriously, it's partly because I'm just not all that coordinated. But I do know that good equipment can breed better play.
My GI irons, because they are relatively forgiving, allow me pretty good results while not hitting center face. That result being "good enough" got me by and I got fairly confident with my GI irons. I switched over to more of a players iron that required me to be more exact with my swing. It was very frustrating, and I've taken lessons and practiced a lot. I now (for the first time ever) am developing a more consistent swing, and now have the beginnings of the ability to self diagnose when things go bad.
Those two things are eye opening for me, and I'm on the road to being a different and better golfer. I attribute this to my new irons "forcing" me to learn how to play better, and truthfully, forcing me to be less lazy. Sure, I had the desire, the instruction, and some abilities, but the irons are a precision instrument that are helping me get there. Sometimes I've felt that I bit off more than I could chew, and getting frustrated is a danger, but I do feel that the "right" iron can definitely help train you to strike the ball better.
So hitting an iron with a small sweet spot will not "make you better", but finding an iron that challenges your game, and challenges you to get better, isn't an unrealistic idea. So in that regards, equipment does make a difference.
This thread's not about me, and I don't want to derail the original posters thread with these thoughts. So let me finish by stating that I applaud Rocketman's choice of irons and shafts that challenge him to think about his game a bit differently and focus more on cause and effect of the golf swing. I'm looking forward to Rocket's progress with his new irons.
JWLI
Banned
Let me take a stab at this discussion with this:
At work the other day, a customer pulls in driving a mint condition, fully restored 1962 Corvette.
Now I'll bet that my wife's 2006 Altima probably handles better, brakes better, rides better and is far more fuel efficient than that Corvette, but if someone were to offer me either of those two cars, I'd take the Corvette without batting an eyelash. The reason is not because the Corvette is mechanically or technologically "better", but because it's all about a feeling, an image, an era and a style that just screams "Classic" and few modern cars (if any) can match that feeling.
I think the whole "Forged" versus "Cast" argument is the same thing. Today's Cast clubs are very likely (by comparison) "better" in many ways than forged clubs both modern and older. But the term "forged" has a feel to it just like that Corvette does because they were the originals. They were the ones that people my age learned the game with and once mastered, they conjure up a feeling of "being a golfer" in the same way that that Corvette conjures up a feeling of owning a "real car". And if someone plays better golf because they believe that a forged club makes them play better then there's nothing to argue about because you'd be arguing about a feeling.
I think too that the industry itself is largely responsible for this argument because they coined the term "Game Improvement" and applied it to what are largely cast clubs. So logically, if something is called "Game Improvement", the implication is that these clubs are somehow easier to hit and more forgiving than the "other clubs" which happen to be forged clubs (mostly blades). The implication further suggests that if one desires a "Game Improvement" club, they must be having problems with those other clubs and these new things will make it easier to play the game and the conclusion would be that those who CAN play the other clubs must be better golfers.
This of course is not true and although the original cast clubs of yesteryear were hard as rocks and offered little in the way of feedback compared to those "buttery smooth" forged blades, cast clubs have come a very long way and are nothing like the old ones. But for those who either grew up in those days or who immerse themselves in the imagery of those days, there can be nothing like the feeling of forged no matter how irrelevant the comparison to cast may be today. Just like that vintage Corvette and the 21st century Altima, the Altima is technologically far superior to the Corvette, but it will never replace the Corvette's "feel" and it will never take its place as a "real car".
Sorry for the long post, but that's my two cents worth.
At work the other day, a customer pulls in driving a mint condition, fully restored 1962 Corvette.
Now I'll bet that my wife's 2006 Altima probably handles better, brakes better, rides better and is far more fuel efficient than that Corvette, but if someone were to offer me either of those two cars, I'd take the Corvette without batting an eyelash. The reason is not because the Corvette is mechanically or technologically "better", but because it's all about a feeling, an image, an era and a style that just screams "Classic" and few modern cars (if any) can match that feeling.
I think the whole "Forged" versus "Cast" argument is the same thing. Today's Cast clubs are very likely (by comparison) "better" in many ways than forged clubs both modern and older. But the term "forged" has a feel to it just like that Corvette does because they were the originals. They were the ones that people my age learned the game with and once mastered, they conjure up a feeling of "being a golfer" in the same way that that Corvette conjures up a feeling of owning a "real car". And if someone plays better golf because they believe that a forged club makes them play better then there's nothing to argue about because you'd be arguing about a feeling.
I think too that the industry itself is largely responsible for this argument because they coined the term "Game Improvement" and applied it to what are largely cast clubs. So logically, if something is called "Game Improvement", the implication is that these clubs are somehow easier to hit and more forgiving than the "other clubs" which happen to be forged clubs (mostly blades). The implication further suggests that if one desires a "Game Improvement" club, they must be having problems with those other clubs and these new things will make it easier to play the game and the conclusion would be that those who CAN play the other clubs must be better golfers.
This of course is not true and although the original cast clubs of yesteryear were hard as rocks and offered little in the way of feedback compared to those "buttery smooth" forged blades, cast clubs have come a very long way and are nothing like the old ones. But for those who either grew up in those days or who immerse themselves in the imagery of those days, there can be nothing like the feeling of forged no matter how irrelevant the comparison to cast may be today. Just like that vintage Corvette and the 21st century Altima, the Altima is technologically far superior to the Corvette, but it will never replace the Corvette's "feel" and it will never take its place as a "real car".
Sorry for the long post, but that's my two cents worth.
- Admin
- #37
JWLI,
I would recommend listening to this THP Radio show with club making icon John Hoeflich. I think you would really enjoy it.
http://thehackersparadise.com/?p=13612
I would recommend listening to this THP Radio show with club making icon John Hoeflich. I think you would really enjoy it.
http://thehackersparadise.com/?p=13612
JWLI
Banned
I checked it out and it was very interesting and surprisingly frank in regard to the future of the industry as well as current successes and failures. It's nice to know that an "Industry Guy" can be as candid as he was.
Question: Regarding the pro's not being able to tell the difference between cast and forged, I take it that the survey refers to current PGA Tour pro's right?
I'd be interested to know how the pro's on the Senior Tour would respond to that same survey since they're the ones who grew up with forged blades.
Do you think the outcome would be the same or do you think they'd be able to see more of a difference?
- Admin
- #39
Actually the test has been done many times over the past 2 decades with Hoeffy. Same results every time.
Based on our testing, there is no difference. Its a process to make a club, not a type of club. As Hoeffy has said years ago, the casting process was not the same. Today, with vacuum casting, there is no feel difference. Its about metal, weighting and shape. Not process. Marketing is a heck of a thing.
I've played both. A well struck shot with today's cast clubs feels just as "pure", i.e., buttery, as any forged club I've ever hit.