White Dogwood is a poorly designed hole

[blugold]

Alright, Masters post-mortem, after a discussion with a friend, hole 11 at Augusta National is a poorly designed hole. It's too long and the approach shot suffers because of it. Yesterday, guys were having 200+ into that green. The correct shot, the smart shot, is to miss the green to the right and then chip on and make a par putt. We saw two guy in contention go for that green, be aggressive, but over cook it and get penalized. That hole isn't exciting or a good hole. It's designed in a way that rewards players who intentionally bail short right. For the first hole in an iconic 3-hole stretch, Hole 11 is bad. It needs to be shorter. Entice aggressive shots, make players execute good golf and make the rewards obtainable. Don't encourage timidness and reward defensive golf. It's designed to have bogey be okay, and that makes it a bad hole.

I think Hole 11 at Augusta National Golf Club, White Dogwood, is a poorly designed hole.

 

[War Eagle]

Could be the best risk/reward hole in golf though, right?

 

[Slowmo]

I think part of the problem lies in that 200 for these guys is now a 7i or 8i and the tournament hosts want a mid iron into that green. I don't think it's a bad hole at all but now that almost everyone on tour wants to hit a fade it puts them in a position on the drive where the bailout is much more the safe play. Players used to go up the left side of the fairway with the idea of hitting the middle to right side of the green. Even Arnie used to say if he was left of the flag that he had pulled the shot massively.

 

[blugold]

I think part of the problem lies in that 200 for these guys is now a 7i or 8i and the tournament hosts want a mid iron into that green. I don't think it's a bad hole at all but now that almost everyone on tour wants to hit a fade it puts them in a position on the drive where the bailout is much more the safe play. Players used to go up the left side of the fairway with the idea of hitting the middle to right side of the green. Even Arnie used to say if he was left of the flag that he had pulled the shot massively.

I think they're more 7i or 6i honestly. Maybe even 5i. Just going off of this. That's doesn't leave room to really work a ball either directly and just forces the play to stick a stock shape with a lower lofted iron with limited stopping power. Let players come in from 175-195. We see more aggression and more excitement.

Could be the best risk/reward hole in golf though, right?

The reward is to miss the green, hardly makes for exciting golf. There's no chance to hold that green from 200+, unless a players lands it way short and let's the ball run on. There were just 4 birdies on the hole yesterday. I think that hole just encourages players to play to NOT blow up, versus give them a chance to do something exciting.

 

[mikeg_74]

I think it's one of the best second shot holes. The tee offers you the option to determine what the second shot will require. I love it because I think it's less about the approach or distance and more respecting the green complex and the undulations. You have to land it in a spot or you are looking at an impossible putt or worse, end up in the hazard. For a major, I think it's a proper test at the point when you need it.

 

[ericm007]

Alright, Masters post-mortem, after a discussion with a friend, hole 11 at Augusta National is a poorly designed hole. It's too long and the approach shot suffers because of it. Yesterday, guys were having 200+ into that green. The correct shot, the smart shot, is to miss the green to the right and then chip on and make a par putt. We saw two guy in contention go for that green, be aggressive, but over cook it and get penalized. That hole isn't exciting or a good hole. It's designed in a way that rewards players who intentionally bail short right. For the first hole in an iconic 3-hole stretch, Hole 11 is bad. It needs to be shorter. Entice aggressive shots, make players execute good golf and make the rewards obtainable. Don't encourage timidness and reward defensive golf. It's designed to have bogey be okay, and that makes it a bad hole.

I think Hole 11 at Augusta National Golf Club, White Dogwood, is a poorly designed hole.

I like the hole, you have to know your limitations, and pick the proper spots to be aggressive, 11 ain't it. Here's what some guy that had a bridge named after him once said.

If you ever see my approach shot on the green there, “you’ll know I missed my second shot.” Ben Hogan

Hogan always played short right and pitched to the flag, mainly making pars and moving on.

 

[Jeff Spicoli]

I think it's awesome to see these guys be uncomfortable and challenge them. They all know how to play the hole, where to miss it, and where you can't go. The safe landing area on the green is really small and it's obviously incredibly difficult to do from that distance with wind and the penalty area. If every hole was like this, I would say the course is designed poorly, but I'm okay with one hole testing them in this way.

 

[blugold]

I like the hole, you have to know your limitations, and pick the proper spots to be aggressive, 11 ain't it. Here's what some guy that had a bridge named after him once said.

If you ever see my approach shot on the green there, “you’ll know I missed my second shot.” Ben Hogan

Hogan always played short right and pitched to the flag, mainly making pars and moving on.

Yeah, that just confirms to me that it's a poorly designed par 4. It's a short par 5.

 

[BuffaloPlunger]

I have to disagree here. It’s major golf. You could argue two guys here couldn’t handle the pressure. Scottie executed it perfectly.

The play isn’t to bail out right, the play is to hit a shot where your miss leaves you on the right side

 

[Daluteh]

I have to disagree here. It’s major golf. You could argue two guys here couldn’t handle the pressure. Scottie executed it perfectly.

The play isn’t to bail out right, the play is to hit a shot where your miss leaves you on the right side

I like the statement that the play is to hit a shot where the miss is reasonable.

 

[echico]

The second 9 has eagle opportunities as well as tough tests. You can't look at 1 hole and say it is poorly designed without taking in the entire round. 12 is a tough par 3 then you get 2 reachable par 5s in the next e holes with a reasonable par e at 16. You want to drive guys to attack on their way in not to just hold a lead. The hole is great as it is.

 

[blugold]

I have to disagree here. It’s major golf. You could argue two guys here couldn’t handle the pressure. Scottie executed it perfectly.

The play isn’t to bail out right, the play is to hit a shot where your miss leaves you on the right side

The play is to bail right. It too strongly rewards cautious defensive golf. To miss, chip on and make a par putt. That's the play. That's the play because the hole is poorly designed, it's too long.

Sure, I can make the see the argument that Scheffler had earned the right to be cautious, but that's boring to me. I don't love seeing the carnage. I want birdies and fireworks.

 

[BuffaloPlunger]

I like the statement that the play is to hit a shot where the miss is reasonable.

Players are rewarded with an aggressive shot and that’s what you want in a major.

If you watch how Scottie played it yesterday, he was set up to miss right but was able to play the hole. I do find it odd Morikawa hit a draw into the green considering his stock flight is a fade

 

[blugold]

The second 9 has eagle opportunities as well as tough tests. You can't look at 1 hole and say it is poorly designed without taking in the entire round. 12 is a tough par 3 then you get 2 reachable par 5s in the next e holes with a reasonable par e at 16. You want to drive guys to attack on their way in not to just hold a lead. The hole is great as it is.

I don't think 11 accomplishes what you're saying here. I think it encourages cautious golf. It's near impossible to attack that hole.

 

[Greg Kulbick]

 

[BuffaloPlunger]

I don't think 11 accomplishes what you're saying here. I think it encourages cautious golf. It's near impossible to attack that hole.

I don’t think it encourages cautious golf. It encourages patient golf which is what one needs to win a major.

Changing it to a 5 doesn’t change the scores made. Keeping it a 4 makes it more entertaining because.

Overall I think hole is a really really good opportunity for a player chasing the leader to step up and hit a shot. Similarly, it’s a hole where the leader can step up and close out the tournament

 

[ericm007]

The play is to bail right. It too strongly rewards cautious defensive golf. To miss, chip on and make a par putt. That's the play. That's the play because the hole is poorly designed, it's too long.

Sure, I can make the see the argument that Scheffler had earned the right to be cautious, but that's boring to me. I don't love seeing the carnage. I want birdies and fireworks.

Stick to watching regular tour events and you should be happy.

 

[Jtubb17]

I agree with those who've said they like it. You're about to start down the stretch at a Major when you get to this hole. Having a test like this where the players have to hit a really good tee shot to set themselves up for a halfway decent shot at this green is fun. Miss your tee shot and you have to decide if you want to go for the hero shot or bail out and have one less hole to make up the strokes you're chasing. It's especially fun knowing that you have a tough par 3 next and you can expect to not be gaining a stroke there.

 

[echico]

I don't think 11 accomplishes what you're saying here. I think it encourages cautious golf. It's near impossible to attack that hole.

Right hold on here because there are fireworks coming. If you screw up hole 11 there are chances to make it up. You can't make every hole a scoring opportunity

 

[djt311]

I agree with those who've said they like it. You're about to start down the stretch at a Major when you get to this hole. Having a test like this where the players have to hit a really good tee shot to set themselves up for a halfway decent shot at this green is fun. Miss your tee shot and you have to decide if you want to go for the hero shot or bail out and have one less hole to make up the strokes you're chasing. It's especially fun knowing that you have a tough par 3 next and you can expect to not be gaining a stroke there.

My thoughts are pretty much ^^^this^^^

 

[blugold]

I agree with those who've said they like it. You're about to start down the stretch at a Major when you get to this hole. Having a test like this where the players have to hit a really good tee shot to set themselves up for a halfway decent shot at this green is fun. Miss your tee shot and you have to decide if you want to go for the hero shot or bail out and have one less hole to make up the strokes you're chasing. It's especially fun knowing that you have a tough par 3 next and you can expect to not be gaining a stroke there.

We saw 4 good tee shots from the last two groups. It's 320 to have 200 in (this is going to be a snoozefest hole in a few years with the new nerfed balls) and the best in the world are hitting 5i or 6i into that green. When the smart play on a par 4 is to miss the green in regulation, I think there's an issue.

 

[blugold]

Stick to watching regular tour events and you should be happy.

 

[blugold]

Right hold on here because there are fireworks coming. If you screw up hole 11 there are chances to make it up. You can't make every hole a scoring opportunity

It encourages a leader to run and hide, and that bores me.

 

[echico]

It encourages a leader to run and hide, and that bores me.

It encourages someone that is behind to attack, maybe. Then you get a lot of scoring chances after. You can't run and hide on hole 11.

 

[mikeg_74]

It encourages a leader to run and hide, and that bores me.

You see run and hide and I see course management. I am not making light of your position; I just think that this one hole positioned where it is to begin the back nine is in a perfect spot to make sure they are on top of their games. Whether its a mid or long iron, unless the green complex is redesigned, the play is front right and use your short game to walk away with par. Steal a birdie and you are up on the field.