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White Dogwood is a poorly designed hole

Eleven is so long because it's been lengthened and modified over the years as distances have increased. Back to the roll-back argument?
 
Not every hole should be a birdie hole. The 11th requires a precise 2nd shot into a very tricky green. I love it.
 
Wouldn’t say it’s a poorly designed hole, but it’s absurdly long for a par 4 with a design like that. If they want them hitting 4-6i on like they did back in the 80’s, that’s fine I guess? But then shouldn’t the green be more receptive to well struck shots? I’d miss to the right all day just the same if it’s an easier attempt for par than being on the very front of the green
 
echico said:
It encourages someone that is behind to attack, maybe. Then you get a lot of scoring chances after. You can't run and hide on hole 11.
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Disagree. That hole encourages players to miss short right, wedge on, and then putt. Again, I like the idea of having a risk reward hole. I adore them. But I think this one is poorly designed and mainly so because it's too long. Let guys go at that with 8i, not 5i and let's see what happens.
 
blugold said:
Disagree. That hole encourages players to miss short right, wedge on, and then putt. Again, I like the idea of having a risk reward hole. I adore them. But I think this one is poorly designed and mainly so because it's too long. Let guys go at that with 8i, not 5i and let's see what happens.
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Well you are wrong but I am not gonna dance with you
 
MWard said:
Wouldn’t say it’s a poorly designed hole, but it’s absurdly long for a par 4 with a design like that. If they want them hitting 4-6i on like they did back in the 80’s, that’s fine I guess? But then shouldn’t the green be more receptive to well struck shots? I’d miss to the right all day just the same if it’s an easier attempt for par than being on the very front of the green
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I would say it's poorly designed because of the length.
 
i'm generally not a fan of holes where guys are kinda aiming to miss the green. We have a long par 3 that plays similar. The best play is to aim left of the green and chip on. Not really a fan of that

However as @echico pointed out, the 9 also has many birdie chances. I mind the hole less if it still works OK in the flow of the course.
 
echico said:
Well you are wrong but I am not gonna dance with you
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Uno Reverse GIF by MOODMAN
 
blugold said:
We saw 4 good tee shots from the last two groups. It's 320 to have 200 in (this is going to be a snoozefest hole in a few years with the new nerfed balls) and the best in the world are hitting 5i or 6i into that green. When the smart play on a par 4 is to miss the green in regulation, I think there's an issue.
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As far as the nerfed balls go, Augusta can address that and reposition the tee box if necessary at that time. For now, the best in the world with a 5i or 6i are still way better than most of us with a 8i or 9i. I'd rather see them sweat for a hole and risk it all than change this hole up and have a 295 yard drive lead to a 9i or PW in. I enjoy seeing them pucker and have to play like I do on a long par 4 where I have 190 in with trouble around and nothing is on the line. If they bailout, sure I'm bored that they didn't go for it. If they go for it and blow it up a la Aberg yesterday, it's fun to say "what if"
 
Jtubb17 said:
As far as the nerfed balls go, Augusta can address that and reposition the tee box if necessary at that time. For now, the best in the world with a 5i or 6i are still way better than most of us with a 8i or 9i. I'd rather see them sweat for a hole and risk it all than change this hole up and have a 295 yard drive lead to a 9i or PW in. I enjoy seeing them pucker and have to play like I do on a long par 4 where I have 190 in with trouble around and nothing is on the line. If they bailout, sure I'm bored that they didn't go for it. If they go for it and blow it up a la Aberg yesterday, it's fun to say "what if"
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I am not one who loves to see the carnage. I think it leads to snoozefest Sunday back 9s.
 
I wonder what people's thoughts would be if this wasn't at Augusta National.

I kinda agree though....if the miss is just center of the green, or correct level of a green but a long putt, that I can get on board with. For the intent of many players to basically just be "miss the green, you're better off", seems dumb.
 
cmon man said:
Eleven is so long because it's been lengthened and modified over the years as distances have increased. Back to the roll-back argument?
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Of course they lengthened it, they want players coming into that green with mid and long irons, I think the result is a poorly designed hole.
 
IMG_4715.gif
Leave it as is, it is a really good par 4.

Plenty of 5, 6, 7 irons were hit there yesterday.
 
My point is that it may have been a better hole before they made all the changes over the years. It seems like a hole one would "survive" now and may be a poor "redesign".
 
blugold said:
I am not one who loves to see the carnage. I think it leads to snoozefest Sunday back 9s.
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That's fair. It did take 3 of 4 competitors out of it and made it a slow watch down the stretch so I see your point on that. I think one of those guys gets through there or it trips up Scotty and the conversation is a little different.
 
I guess I'm getting old, I remember watching players hit fairway woods into 13 and 15 in the 80s and 90s, IIRC it was still pretty exciting. Hole 11 to me is a very risky/little reward hole, if you need to take the risk do so, though I think most times you shouldn't.
 
blugold said:
The play is to bail right. It too strongly rewards cautious defensive golf. To miss, chip on and make a par putt. That's the play. That's the play because the hole is poorly designed, it's too long.

Sure, I can make the see the argument that Scheffler had earned the right to be cautious, but that's boring to me. I don't love seeing the carnage. I want birdies and fireworks.
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Then watch something like the Valero Tx Open and be satisfied. Watching most of the best in the game struggle to make par is reward enough.
 
blugold said:
Why does that make it good?
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Forcing the best players on the planet to hit mid irons into some holes is a good thing.

Letting them hit wedges and nine irons all the time is not. They have a nice mix on that course.

ANGC has a bunch of par four holes where guys can make 3, or they can make a six or seven. That makes them good holes in my book.
 
one could argue that Aberg's attempt from 220 on Sunday was the most consequential decision of the tournament.
is that mean the hole is poorly designed, or well designed?
 
Put me in the camp that thinks it’s a bloody fantastic hole!
 
Birdieputt said:
Then watch something like the Valero Tx Open and be satisfied. Watching most of the best in the game struggle to make par is reward enough.
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Lol. no. I don't like that hole because I think it's poorly designed. That means I don't like the Masters? Eff that. I just don't hold ANGC in hallowed regard above reproach. I think that's a hole that could be really exciting but instead is just a drive and iron shot that leads to a chipping contest and that bores me.
 
lambeau said:
one could argue that Aberg's attempt from 220 on Sunday was the most consequential decision of the tournament.
is that mean the hole is poorly designed, or well designed?
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Not much to do with it honestly. 16 has made or broke a lot of people's hopes. It's a very well designed hole.

Ben Hogan himself saying if he hit the green, it means he missed, makes it a weird design.
 
I think it's one of those of those holes where you know as soon as you hit your tee shot what your next shot strategy will be. If you don't get all of it and don't get it in the right place, the decision is taken from your hands unless you're willing to take on crazy-high risk.
 
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