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Cast VS Forged

SuperStroke
I wont dispute the blades with you CT, however there are lots of clubs now that are "players clubs" with no offset that are not blades.
 
JB said:
I wont dispute the blades with you CT, however there are lots of clubs now that are "players clubs" with no offset that are not blades.
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As I said, my old Maxfli Revolution irons were multi-material cavity backs with minimal offset and thin topline. I loved those clubs but they finally started looking so bad from use that I got ashamed to carry them. LOL. I even tried to find another set on eBay, but never had any luck. Then, I discovered my first set of blades...they were the closest thing I could find to the look and feel I wanted, so I have stuck with them since.
 
Fourputt said:
...Both are immeasurably hard as far as the ball is concerned...
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Bam. That's what my brain latches onto when thinking about it. Add to that the fact that between me and that clubhead there's a bendy stick, a piece of rubber, and usually even a thin layer of leather on one hand. I would think the ball, the shape/design of the clubhead (since that affects the interaction of the clubhead with the ball,) the shaft, and even the grip (since those two affect the interaction of the clubhead with your hands) would play a much more realistic role in feel than the material of the clubhead.

Now to toss into the actual metallurgy discussion -- if one clubhead were cast and one were forged of the exact same metal, wouldn't the forged head actually be harder? Grain-alignment during the forging process causes strain-hardening, right? I didn't pay a whole lot of attention in that one MatE class I had to take, but I think I remember it that way.
 
Just for my own knowledge of cast v forged, would this be a true statement.

It doesn't matter so much what the process is when a club is made, but what does matter is the metal that is used to make it.

There seem to be strong arguments that the whole cast vs. forged debate is irrelevent since no one can tell them apart if a club is made the same. I have seen the light, I get it. Why do manufacturers use both styles then? Is one cheaper to do? Why is a Titleist AP-1 cast, and the AP-2 forged? Do they use different metals for each and it is easier/better/cheaper to do one metal cast and the other is better off forged? Is it better for the block of metal that Mizuno uses for the MP line to be forged instead of melted down and cast? I am just trying to understand.
 
Part of it is money. Part of it is HUGE marketing because people believe that forged makes a difference.
 
StLCardsFan said:
Just for my own knowledge of cast v forged, would this be a true statement.

It doesn't matter so much what the process is when a club is made, but what does matter is the metal that is used to make it.

There seem to be strong arguments that the whole cast vs. forged debate is irrelevent since no one can tell them apart if a club is made the same. I have seen the light, I get it. Why do manufacturers use both styles then? Is one cheaper to do? Why is a Titleist AP-1 cast, and the AP-2 forged? Do they use different metals for each and it is easier/better/cheaper to do one metal cast and the other is better off forged? Is it better for the block of metal that Mizuno uses for the MP line to be forged instead of melted down and cast? I am just trying to understand.
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The process of casting is considerably cheaper than forging. Can't answer any of the rest, but I can at least give you that one. It's also easier/cheaper to forge a softer metal, so don't assume the soft metals they're forging those fancy clubs out of is to give you some better experience - they're more likely doing it to increase their profit margins. Obviously they want to make it good and make you happy, but in the end a company's goal is to make money :blob:
 
That's interesting, because I've played Mizuno MP-32's for going on 5 years now, and I've had Cleveland wedges in my bag most of that time (including now) and I would swear on my own life I can feel an enormous difference between the feel of, say, my pitching wedge (forged) and my sand wedge (cast). I mean, really it's not even close. The Cleveland feels like a brick on the end of a broom handle compared to the Mizuno when I chip side-by-side with the two. I've even been waiting for the Mizuno wedges with the grooves that comply to the new rule so I can update the wedges and get something with some feel.

Now I will say that the Cleveland wedge (a 588 RTG) performs very well (otherwise why have it), but in terms of feel, there's no comparison with my forged Mizuno PW.
 
Placebo effect, you have bought into the marketing claims pure & simple.
 
dynarider said:
Placebo effect, you have bought into the marketing claims pure & simple.
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I would bet my life I can tell the difference between my PW and my SW by feel. I actually think there is some reverse marketing going on by the club manufacturers trying to convince people that they should be paying the same for a cast set as they would for forged, even though forged is more expensive to make. Think about it. If I'm a VW dealer and I can convince you to pay BMW prices for a VW, I'd be doing pretty well for myself.
 
The difference in feel is not really about them being forged or cast, but more about how they are made (shape and weighting). Even Tom Stites that made your very clubs has said it is about the metal and the layout and not the process.
 
JB said:
The difference in feel is not really about them being forged or cast, but more about how they are made (shape and weighting). Even Tom Stites that made your very clubs has said it is about the metal and the layout and not the process.
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What I've always understood (and what I think the original post confirms) is that softer steel has always been used for forging vs. the harder steel used for casting. I don't profess to know the how's and why's of it (I am anything but a metallurgist), but whether it be the process or the materials themselves, I do believe there is a difference in feel between the two. It may also be a matter of shape to an extent (think cavity back vs. blade). If I hit my old TM 300's, it feels like there is a towel wrapped around the head compared to my MP-32's. There are no doubt other factors as well. I have a buddy with MP-52's (I think), which are made from the same material my irons are, but he puts cheap, generic grips on them. They have no feel compared to mine, but I think that has more to do with the grips than the clubs.

Nevertheless, if you asked me if there is a difference in feel between cast and forged clubs, my answer would be a resounding yes. (And for what it's worth, I think there is a difference in feel between different brands of forged irons as well). I may well be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
 
years ago there were a lot of differences between the two. different metals and everything else. Now there is not. Enter this. The clubs you would need the most feel on are wedges, yet 90% of the pros play cast wedges. And while I think marketing is some of it, look around at the bags and many do not even play the wedges that they are under contract with.

Plenty of club designers, metallurgists, and touring professionals have chimed in on the issue and will be quoted in the article we are finishing up. The funny thing is, that it seems the only people that can "tell the difference" if two clubs are the same are the amateur golfers. Based on our sample that we have spoken to.
 
JB said:
years ago there were a lot of differences between the two. different metals and everything else. Now there is not. Enter this. The clubs you would need the most feel on are wedges, yet 90% of the pros play cast wedges. And while I think marketing is some of it, look around at the bags and many do not even play the wedges that they are under contract with.

Plenty of club designers, metallurgists, and touring professionals have chimed in on the issue and will be quoted in the article we are finishing up. The funny thing is, that it seems the only people that can "tell the difference" if two clubs are the same are the amateur golfers. Based on our sample that we have spoken to.
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Don't forget shafts also play a part in how a club feels
 
Absolutely, as do grips, and golf balls.
 
timbertoes said:
You all realize, that not being able to tell a difference, takes all the fun out of it :)
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QFT and AMEN!

Maybe prices will go down..............:banghead:
 
JB said:
Plenty of club designers, metallurgists, and touring professionals have chimed in on the issue and will be quoted in the article we are finishing up. The funny thing is, that it seems the only people that can "tell the difference" if two clubs are the same are the amateur golfers. Based on our sample that we have spoken to.
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I can point you to several touring pros, top national amateurs, highly-regarded PGA teaching professionals and one swing coach to a 9-time major champion, all of whom I know personally, who will tell you otherwise.

I ain't the only one who thinks this is a marketing ploy on the part of manufacturers who want to convince people to pay as much for a cast set it cost them $100 to make as for a forged set that cost them $500 to make.
 
Please do send the links. We would love to hear these people say that they can tell forged from cast. We have our article coming out this week with tons of great info and we hope everybody enjoys. Great club makers were involved from Nike, Mizuno, Nickent, Eidolon, Callaway and more chimed in with great information and quotes. Tour players like Fred Couples, Davis Love, Brian Gay, Anthony Kim, and about 12 others all have quotes in the article as well. We even had two professors that are involved.

Edit: While we put the finishing touches on this article if any of "your" players would like to be quoted or interviewed on the subject, please have them contact us.
 
JB said:
Please do send the links. We would love to hear these people say that they can tell forged from cast. We have our article coming out this week with tons of great info and we hope everybody enjoys. Great club makers were involved from Nike, Mizuno, Nickent, Eidolon, Callaway and more chimed in with great information and quotes. Tour players like Fred Couples, Davis Love, Brian Gay, Anthony Kim, and about 12 others all have quotes in the article as well. We even had two professors that are involved.

Edit: While we put the finishing touches on this article if any of "your" players would like to be quoted or interviewed on the subject, please have them contact us.
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They aren't links, they're friends, and I don't drop names.
 
Then email them over to admin@thehackersparadise.com
We would love to talk with your people such as your friend that is the 9 time major winner and hear what they have to say on the subject.
 
Then email them over to admin@thehackersparadise.com
We would love to talk with your people such as your friend that is the 9 time major winner and hear what they have to say on the subject.
 
herr_ryan said:
I can point you to several touring pros, top national amateurs, highly-regarded PGA teaching professionals and one swing coach to a 9-time major champion, all of whom I know personally, who will tell you otherwise.

I ain't the only one who thinks this is a marketing ploy on the part of manufacturers who want to convince people to pay as much for a cast set it cost them $100 to make as for a forged set that cost them $500 to make.
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Now this is funny, I am not sure how all of these people are comparing forged and cast? Considering most of your cast heads are 17-4 and forged are mainly 8620 and 1025. Of course forged is always going to feel softer than cast when you are comparing 1025 to 17-4.

YOU CANNOT COMPARE FORGED AND CAST AND DO IT PROPERLY WITH DIFFERENT METALS AND DIFFERENT DESIGNS. ANYONE THAT TELLS YOU DIFFERENT IS TRYING TO SELL YOU SOMETHING.

The statement above is common sense, everyone knows 1025 is softer than 17-4. I mean of course my MP-14's feel softer than the TA 845's I have. Not only completely different designs, but 1025 vs/ 17-4. Just look at the rockwell hardness scale to see which will feel softer.

Now compare a very similar design in cast 8620 and forged 8620 and you will then know if there truely is a difference, there is no other way to actually know unless you are marketing something and are wanting to push your agenda.
 
Chris,
100% agree with you. I think you will find his response in our request to interview those people for the article as expected.

We have a phone call coming your way as well this week for the piece.
 
SunsetBeachGolf said:
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Now this is funny, I am not sure how all of these people are comparing forged and cast? Considering most of your cast heads are 17-4 and forged are mainly 8620 and 1025. Of course forged is always going to feel softer than cast when you are comparing 1025 to 17-4.

YOU CANNOT COMPARE FORGED AND CAST AND DO IT PROPERLY WITH DIFFERENT METALS AND DIFFERENT DESIGNS. ANYONE THAT TELLS YOU DIFFERENT IS TRYING TO SELL YOU SOMETHING.

The statement above is common sense, everyone knows 1025 is softer than 17-4. I mean of course my MP-14's feel softer than the TA 845's I have. Not only completely different designs, but 1025 vs/ 17-4. Just look at the rockwell hardness scale to see which will feel softer.

Now compare a very similar design in cast 8620 and forged 8620 and you will then know if there truely is a difference, there is no other way to actually know unless you are marketing something and are wanting to push your agenda.
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Excellent post.
 
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