We've launched the new forums! Read more here

Cast VS Forged

SuperStroke
herr_ryan said:
They aren't links, they're friends, and I don't drop names.
Click to expand...

herr_ryan said:
I don't have a friend that is a 9-time major winner.
Click to expand...

Really? Your post made it seem that way, so we were confused. We would still love to speak with your friends that are teaching professionals to get their take on this debate for the article since it seems pretty one sided at this point.
 
JB said:
Really? Your post made it seem that way, so we were confused. We would still love to speak with your friends that are teaching professionals to get their take on this debate for the article since it seems pretty one sided at this point.
Click to expand...

I know the swing coach for a 9-time major champion. I will talk to a couple people and see if anyone is interested in contributing. If they are, I will surely let you know.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JB
So...why don't club makers make some cast wedges out of 1018, 1025, etc. From what I've read, it would be cheaper than conventional casting with harder metals like 8620.

Should be a win win, softer feel for users and cheaper production costs.
 
From the people we have spoken to, it is because they do not have to. The two most popular wedges sold and played on all the tours are cast out of harder metals and nobody has any issues with them.
 
bioman said:
So...why don't club makers make some cast wedges out of 1018, 1025, etc. From what I've read, it would be cheaper than conventional casting with harder metals like 8620.

Should be a win win, softer feel for users and cheaper production costs.
Click to expand...

Quite frankly, 1018 and other 10 series steels aren't really the best steels for golf clubs. The metal is soft enough to bend with hard use, resulting in the necessity of having to constantly check and adjust them to proper lie and loft. The grooves will also wear faster than with a harder steel. The average golfer would not be happy with the performance of such a club. Besides it isn't really much cheaper to cast 1020 than it is to cast any other steel. The only reason for the 10 series to be used for forging is because they are soft.

I used to have a set of MacGregor RPM irons, cast from manganese bronze. I loved those clubs, and I've wished many times that I hadn't sold them when I got a new set. They were softer than 17-4 SS but harder than any forged irons. Manganese bronze is a tough metal which wears well, making it a good material for golf clubs, IMO. It's only negative is that it is a bit brittle. I heard of guys having trouble with the long irons breaking at the hosel, but I never had a problem with them.
 
Cool video
http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/forging/video-sound-test.php


Why does a forged head sound so different to a cast head?

Because the air bubbles produced in the casting process affect sound vibration. You can think of it this way: fill two wine glasses with water, one with fizzy carbonated and the other with still. Then flick or tap the glass with a pen, or something. The sound is totally different. The fizzy water glass gives a dead 'pip' while the still water creates a longer 'di-i-i-ng'. The bubbles absorb the sound. And so it is with golf clubs. Cast heads dampen the sound quickly because there is air inside the metal. That's why they sound and feel dead. Our mild carbon steel forged heads, with no bubbles, produce a longer sound duration which gives more feedback.
 
That was sent to us a while back. The funny thing is that Mizuno has been quoted elsewhere as saying that they know that there are no air bubbles in cast heads anymore. Years ago it was a major issue in casting. But vacuums have changed that. The reason they sound different is because different metals are used. The same reason they feel different.
 
BigLeftyinAZ said:
Cool video
http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/forging/video-sound-test.php


Why does a forged head sound so different to a cast head?

Because the air bubbles produced in the casting process affect sound vibration. You can think of it this way: fill two wine glasses with water, one with fizzy carbonated and the other with still. Then flick or tap the glass with a pen, or something. The sound is totally different. The fizzy water glass gives a dead 'pip' while the still water creates a longer 'di-i-i-ng'. The bubbles absorb the sound. And so it is with golf clubs. Cast heads dampen the sound quickly because there is air inside the metal. That's why they sound and feel dead. Our mild carbon steel forged heads, with no bubbles, produce a longer sound duration which gives more feedback.
Click to expand...

===

Yeah, Mizuno is trying to sell you something with this video are they?

Like many others of us have said earlier, casting no longer has the air bubbles, hot or cold spots like they did 10 -15 years ago.

Until the same designed head with the same weight and with the SAME metal is made cast and forged then NO ONE can truly say anything one way or another.

ANYONE that says there is a difference without having the above to compare is either just drinking koolaid, smoking crack, or trying to sell you something one way or another.
 
I still don't understand why anyone even cares about this.

Go hit some clubs and buy the ones you like best.
 
Harry Longshanks said:
I still don't understand why anyone even cares about this.

Go hit some clubs and buy the ones you like best.
Click to expand...

I agree with you 100%. It goes back to my theory of marketing vs real.
 
I don't think it's really about the type of steel or whether it's soft or hard. I think the biggest difference between cast clubs and forged clubs is the "grain".

When a clubhead is forged from a billet, it's done along its long axis which preserves and tightens the grain of the metal that was created when the billet was drawn. Cast clubs do not have a grain since they are formed from molten metal and that metal simply cools and hardens.

The difference is like a piece of real wood versus a piece of particle board. The real wood has a grain and if one knocks on that piece of wood, it "rings" and transmits the vibration along its entire length. A piece of particle board has no grain because it's made from small bits of wood fibers, wood dust and glue and if one knocks on a piece of particle board, it has a sort of "dead" sound and doesn't transmit vibration very well at all.

The 'feel" of a forged club is the result of the metal's grain. A golf ball struck anywhere on the face of a forged club will cause a vibration throughout the entire piece of metal and that can be felt in the hands as that vibration or that "ring" travels up the shaft (assuming a steel shaft). A golf ball struck by a cast club can be felt, but not in the same way that it is in a forged club because the cast metal doesn't transmit vibrations as efficiently or as nuanced as does forged steel because it lacks a grain.

This is why when a shot is struck off-center with a forged club, a player will often say how far off it was by the way the club felt because a forged metal can telegraph even very subtle differences in feel depending upon where on the face the ball was struck. Most people cannot detect that kind of subtlety with cast clubs because they don't transmit vibration the way forged metal does.



-JP
 
JPsuff said:
I don't think it's really about the type of steel or whether it's soft or hard. I think the biggest difference between cast clubs and forged clubs is the "grain".

When a clubhead is forged from a billet, it's done along its long axis which preserves and tightens the grain of the metal that was created when the billet was drawn. Cast clubs do not have a grain since they are formed from molten metal and that metal simply cools and hardens.

The difference is like a piece of real wood versus a piece of particle board. The real wood has a grain and if one knocks on that piece of wood, it "rings" and transmits the vibration along its entire length. A piece of particle board has no grain because it's made from small bits of wood fibers, wood dust and glue and if one knocks on a piece of particle board, it has a sort of "dead" sound and doesn't transmit vibration very well at all.

The 'feel" of a forged club is the result of the metal's grain. A golf ball struck anywhere on the face of a forged club will cause a vibration throughout the entire piece of metal and that can be felt in the hands as that vibration or that "ring" travels up the shaft (assuming a steel shaft). A golf ball struck by a cast club can be felt, but not in the same way that it is in a forged club because the cast metal doesn't transmit vibrations as efficiently or as nuanced as does forged steel because it lacks a grain.

This is why when a shot is struck off-center with a forged club, a player will often say how far off it was by the way the club felt because a forged metal can telegraph even very subtle differences in feel depending upon where on the face the ball was struck. Most people cannot detect that kind of subtlety with cast clubs because they don't transmit vibration the way forged metal does.



-JP
Click to expand...

I am looking for anything scientific that shows anything of what you said is true. I provided the rockwell hardeness scale to show the hardness of metals in a scientific fashion, not with marketing hype.

If the vibration was so much better in a forged head then all of the major manufacturers would definately forge and then mill all of their putters. A forging and then milling is cheaper(I know this to be fact as I could If I were large enough save tons of money forging and then milling my putters) However since this is not the case all of the major putter companies mill from a solid block, the grain in a solid block is in all one direction and not aligned to the shape of the clubhead.

Now putters are not swung nearly as hard as irons so that may be some difference but until I see something that actually proves what you say about vibration I will stand behind the fact that the Rockwell hardness scale is scientific where you can see a quantitatively see a difference in the hardness of the metals. Also due to the fact that I have putter heads that are almost exactly the same and one head is 303 stainless and the others are all 1018 carbon and they are 100% block milled and I can tell a major difference between the two blindfolded as can everyone else I have tested.

It is easy to see that 1018 8620 1025 is much softer than 17-4. This is not a small difference it is a LARGE difference in hardness. This is the reason cast feels harder the metal is harder.

If you think Davis Love or Freddy Couples could not have told you how far off the center they hit their 845's back in the day just as well as they can the Titleist forgeds or Bridgestone forged then you are sorely mistaken. You can tell just as easily, I played golf at a high level playing college golf and then the mini tours for a couple of years and I could do the same thing.

Anything anyone tells you without something proven scientifically about why their clubs are better are just trying to market you into buying their clubs instead of someone else's.
 
SunsetBeachGolf said:
I am looking for anything scientific that shows anything of what you said is true. I provided the rockwell hardeness scale to show the hardness of metals in a scientific fashion, not with marketing hype.

If the vibration was so much better in a forged head then all of the major manufacturers would definately forge and then mill all of their putters. A forging and then milling is cheaper(I know this to be fact as I could If I were large enough save tons of money forging and then milling my putters) However since this is not the case all of the major putter companies mill from a solid block, the grain in a solid block is in all one direction and not aligned to the shape of the clubhead.

Now putters are not swung nearly as hard as irons so that may be some difference but until I see something that actually proves what you say about vibration I will stand behind the fact that the Rockwell hardness scale is scientific where you can see a quantitatively see a difference in the hardness of the metals. Also due to the fact that I have putter heads that are almost exactly the same and one head is 303 stainless and the others are all 1018 carbon and they are 100% block milled and I can tell a major difference between the two blindfolded as can everyone else I have tested.

It is easy to see that 1018 8620 1025 is much softer than 17-4. This is not a small difference it is a LARGE difference in hardness. This is the reason cast feels harder the metal is harder.

If you think Davis Love or Freddy Couples could not have told you how far off the center they hit their 845's back in the day just as well as they can the Titleist forgeds or Bridgestone forged then you are sorely mistaken. You can tell just as easily, I played golf at a high level playing college golf and then the mini tours for a couple of years and I could do the same thing.

Anything anyone tells you without something proven scientifically about why their clubs are better are just trying to market you into buying their clubs instead of someone else's.
Click to expand...


There's nothing scientific here, it's just my opinion.

I've played cast clubs and I've played forged clubs and I like forged better because of the feedback. I like knowing where I hit the ball on the clubface and forged allows me to know that in fractions of an inch. The cast clubs I've played simply don't transmit the vibrations as delicately or as sensitively as forged steel does.

The grain is the reason why forged steel bends while cast steel snaps Just like standing on a piece of wood spanned across two cement blocks will generally have the wood bending but not breaking while the same sized piece of particle board will snap in half. It's the grain. One has a grain and the other doesn't.

So if that grain makes that kind of difference in structure, it stands to reason that it must also make its presence known in other ways and I believe that one of those ways is the way in which the grain of forged steel transmits vibration.

Like I say, it's just my opinion. But that opinion is based on what I feel with different types of clubs and I'll go with that feel over all the science in the world any day.


-JP
 
You do realize that all forgings start out as liquid metal that is cast into blocks? This bs about "grain" is just that as both cast & forged parts begin life in the same way, being poured into molds & both have grain.....yes even cast parts have a grain.

I think you have spent too much time on Golfreview where the Mizuno zombies ramble on about grain flow forged clubs.
 
dynarider said:
You do realize that all forgings start out as liquid metal that is cast into blocks? This bs about "grain" is just that as both cast & forged parts begin life in the same way, being poured into molds & both have grain.....yes even cast parts have a grain.

I think you have spent too much time on Golfreview where the Mizuno zombies ramble on about grain flow forged clubs.
Click to expand...

I was going to say the same thing but did not have scientific docs to back it up. All metal starts off as liquid(that's how it is made)

Forged clubs can be bent because they are made of a softer metal, 17-4 is harder and less elastic than 1025 carbon.
 
I'm a retired machinist. I have machined parts from 17-4PH bar stock. Not castings... bar stock just like 1018 cold rolled or 1020 or 1025 hot rolled steels. 17-4 bar stock (also called free machining stainless) is made by running it through a rolling mill just like 1020 is. A foundry billet is heated red hot, then passed through a series of rolls to get the size of the stock desired. That process does "work" the material somewhat, as does forging, but simple one or 2 blow stamp forging like is used for forming a clubhead really doesn't change the material all that much. It takes repeated hammer forging (like what a blacksmith does, only modern shops use air hammers) to really have any impact on the metallic structure.

What that does in most cases is make the material a bit tougher, more bend resistant. We used to make large (200 lb) pinion gears from forgings. The forging made them tough, then the teeth were flame hardened after cutting for added wear resistance.

Whether all of that actually has any effect on feel, I can't say with scientific certainty. I can say that most of the difference in feel in the clubs I've used seems to come from their shape and weighting, not from the process they are made from.
 
dynarider said:
You do realize that all forgings start out as liquid metal that is cast into blocks? This bs about "grain" is just that as both cast & forged parts begin life in the same way, being poured into molds & both have grain.....yes even cast parts have a grain.

I think you have spent too much time on Golfreview where the Mizuno zombies ramble on about grain flow forged clubs.
Click to expand...


Forgings come from billets, which are made from ingots, which do indeed begin life as metal poured into a mold. Billets are bar of steel usually rolled, drawn or forged from an ingot and that's where it separates itself from a simple casting. As these processes progress and the metal is hot worked into shape, the inclusions, porosity, and grains within the steel ingot are forced to flow in the direction the part is being worked. This imparts directionality to the finished part or in short - it creates a grain. This type of steel is referred to as anisotropic. Anisotropism is the property of being directionally dependent.

Cast clubs (cast metals) are isotropic which means that the properties of the metal are identical in all directions, This makes the steel homogeneous and not directionally dependent which means that there is no grain. Cast clubs are made from pouring molten metal into a mold (just as ingots are) but afterward no further processing occurs except for cosmetic processes such as sanding, polishing or plating, non of which "works" the metal and thus cannot produce an anisotropic part.


-JP
 
SunsetBeachGolf said:
I was going to say the same thing but did not have scientific docs to back it up. All metal starts off as liquid(that's how it is made)

Forged clubs can be bent because they are made of a softer metal, 17-4 is harder and less elastic than 1025 carbon.
Click to expand...

We have had experts from companies chime in, quotes from scientists, and even your experience using the different metals. Chris, at some point, you just have to say its not worth it. The koolaid has been consumed. Science and expertise cannot match up with marketing.
 
JPsuff said:
Forgings come from billets, which are made from ingots, which do indeed begin life as metal poured into a mold. So they start out as castings.





Billets are bar of steel usually rolled, drawn or forged from an ingot and that's where it separates itself from a simple casting. As these processes progress and the metal is hot worked into shape, Not all forgings are forged hot, quite a few are done cold.





the inclusions, porosity, and grains within the steel ingot are forced to flow in the direction the part is being worked. This imparts directionality to the finished part or in short - it creates a grain. And as mentioned earlier, even cast parts have agrain. Simple enough to google that, hell you googled this little dealio
Click to expand...



Bolded my answers, not that it's going to make any difference.
 
dynarider said:
Bolded my answers
Click to expand...

I figured that out, but thanks for letting me know.


So they start out as castings.

And no one's arguing that - not even me.


Not all forgings are forged hot, quite a few are done cold.

True. But golf clubs are generally done hot, hence the reference.


And as mentioned earlier, even cast parts have agrain. Simple enough to google that, hell you googled this little dealio

First of all, isn't it, "Dillio?"

At any rate, cast metals do not have a grain. Cast parts can't have a grain because a casting is not worked (hot or cold) and as such no grain can be established. That's what isotropic means - that there is no directionality and that's because molten metal poured into a mold simply hardens in a homogeneous matrix which is generally equal in all directions. Castings aren't drawn, stamped or rolled and because of that the metal is not influenced to "flow" in any particular direction.

Forging does create a grain because the metal is worked. As Fourputt noted, the actual forging (stamping) process that creates a clubhead is not enough by itself to establish a strong anisotropic property in the metal. But most golf club heads are stamped from billets and billets are created by various forging processes which do create a grain and since most club heads are forged longitudinally, the grain which exists in the billet is enhanced by the forging.

As far as Google is concerned, I wanted a quick, simple explanation and rather than put something in my own words, which I admit can get rather lengthy, I Googled a bit of what I wrote because A. definitions are brief and to the point and B. I knew someone would Google the words and I figured that they'd wind up reading about steel and maybe learn something.

I can see that last part didn't work out so well.

And once again, as far as the "feel" or "feedback" being better with forged clubs as opposed to cast clubs, I prefaced and ended my post on that topic with obvious references to everything I wrote as being my opinion. Actually, that opinion is shared by a great many people who play golf and prefer forged clubs, so I'm hardly alone in thinking as I do and I'm sure that you are smart enough to know that. My reasons for that difference being the grain of forged metal are simply conclusions drawn from what I know about metals and various other materials (which is quite a bit, by the way).

So you can argue this point 'til you're blue in the face, but all you're doing is arguing about one opinion versus another, which is about equal to trying to prove that green is a better color than blue.

But as far as castings not having a grain, I'll argue that all day if you'd like because that's not an opinion, that's a fact.


-JP

P. S. This just occurred to me and I thought I'd mention it before someone points it out; there is something known as dynamic casting (I think it has a few other names as well) which is a process that attempts to induce a grain in certain types of casting operations. But most (if not all) golf club heads are cast statically and static casting has no grain.
 
Last edited:
The real answer is- Just play what you like,regardless of type of club head
 
Bingo!


-jp
 
Cast metal does indeed have a grain believe it or not, there are also different methods of casting which can improve & refine the grain.

Don't be so close minded on this, it's ok to admit you may not know everything.:D
 
dynarider said:
Cast metal does indeed have a grain believe it or not, there are also different methods of casting which can improve & refine the grain.

Don't be so close minded on this, it's ok to admit you may not know everything.:D
Click to expand...

You mean, I don't?

(Man! That sucks!)

I know that there are types of casting processes that attempt (and succeed) in establishing a sort of grain, but those are very complex and sophisticated casting methods which are usually reserved for critical stress applications such as those needed in aerospace or heavy industry.

But for golf clubs, static casting is all that's needed and that type of casting doesn't produce a grain.





By the way, is this still the five minute argument, or is it the full half-hour now?

:zsimpsons:


-JP
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top