Ask the Expert: Roger Cleveland's Answers to Your Questions

[JB]

The forging process doesnt make them soft, but it does give superior feel. Thats why most golf companies offer both cast and forged irons, because someone people prefer the superior feel of forgings and are willing to pay a little more for it.

Please explain how the process will give off better feel? It has been disputed by every expert in the game today including Tom Stites that believes in forging all clubs. And while some companies offer both, they readily admit more of it has to do with marketing. Ping and Taylormade, two of the biggest in the game of irons offer no forgings. Callaway barely does and will not coming up on any of their larger offerings. Cleveland will not any on any of their larger offerings either.

 

[Diane]

Sure, and they do, but I also think beginners should learn to enjoy the game first and use technology to their advantage. Beginners should learn to keep it simple and hit the clubs that produce the best results with the easiest of maneuvers.

I agree with you; however, I think learning to hit fewer clubs in different ways also keeps it simple.

Oh the other hand - that old equipment weeded out those who were only interested in slamming a ball off the tee.

 

[JB]

I agree with you; however, I think learning to hit fewer clubs in different ways also keeps it simple.

Oh the other hand - that old equipment weeded out those who were only interested in slamming a ball off the tee.

A person new to the game should never be thinking about opening and closing the club head. They should be thinking about making good contact with regular swings.

 

[Badger_Golfer]

Cast is made from metal that is molten, so when its poured into a mold their are air pockets in the metal.
Forgings are made from metal that is heated up to the point where its mallable but not yet molten and it is then pounded into shape with a brake press, so you dont get the air pockets.
Those air pockets in cast clubs muffle the feel.
I know enough about metalurgy to know that the 2 different processes make a big difference in how a club feels.
Just because the industry prefers to use a less expensive manufacturing process (casting) and is trying to convince us that cast is just as good doesnt make it true.

 

[Harry Longshanks]

A person new to the game should never be thinking about opening and closing the club head. They should be thinking about making good contact with regular swings.

I took Diane's comment to mean hitting harder/softer and forward/back in the stance, rather than working the ball.

And I agree with that. A beginner doesn't have enough distance control to need 14 clubs. Let 'em learn with a 3w, 4h, 5i, 7i, PW and putter.

 

[Diane]

A person new to the game should never be thinking about opening and closing the club head. They should be thinking about making good contact with regular swings.

You are right. I'm sorry I wasn't expressing myself well. I wonder if some newcomers just view their clubs as magic wands that will do the work rather than learn the dynamics of the swing as they progress. I could be wrong, but I think that's what JP was saying as well.

 

[JB]

There used to be air pockets for years in castings. That has not been the case since vaccuum castings have been done for 3-5 years now at a minimum. IT has been proven over and over again by cutting cast wedges open. Ping had a complete seminar on this and showed that no air pockets existed in vaccuum casting anymore. Forgings originally come from molten metal as well by the way.

 

[JB]

You are right. I'm sorry I wasn't expressing myself well. I wonder if some newcomers just view their clubs as magic wands that will do the work rather than learn the dynamics of the swing as they progress. I could be wrong, but I think that's what JP was saying as well.

JP used the exact quote that he learned by opening up a wedge rather than have a higher lofted wedge.

 

[Harry Longshanks]

Cast is made from metal that is molten, so when its poured into a mold their are air pockets in the metal.
Forgings are made from metal that is heated up to the point where its mallable but not yet molten and it is then pounded into shape with a brake press, so you dont get the air pockets.
Those air pockets in cast clubs muffle the feel.
I know enough about metalurgy to know that the 2 different processes make a big difference in how a club feels.
Just because the industry prefers to use a less expensive manufacturing process (casting) and is trying to convince us that cast is just as good doesnt make it true.

No offense Bucky, but that explanation is straight from the Mizuno website (i.e. marketing.) I watched the video too.

I'm not saying you are wrong, because I honestly don't know (nor do I care whether a club is cast or forged - I just pick the one I like best after hitting them), but I'm going to need an independent source for the whole "air bubbles" thing.

 

[Diane]

JP used the exact quote that he learned by opening up a wedge rather than have a higher lofted wedge.

I only retain the silly quotes of useless info. It's a gift.

I was thinking of myself. My brother carries 5 wedges, but has spent a lot of time trying to teach me to use my sand and pitching wedges for different shots. At some point when I master those - I'll buy another wedge, but for now - I need to learn how to use those clubs well.

 

[Badger_Golfer]

Forgings originally come from molten metal as well by the way.

That it does. Forgings start out as bars of steel and are then heated up and pounded into the desired shape.
One thing to note though is that during the forging process, the air pockets are pounded out and you are left with metal that has much more consistency.
If cast is truly now just as good, I dont think so many golf companes would offer so many options in forged clubs. Titleist wouldnt have all but their AP1s be forged and Callaway wouldnt offer options in forged irons and wedges.

 

[Badger_Golfer]

No offense Bucky, but that explanation is straight from the Mizuno website (i.e. marketing.) I watched the video too.

I'm not saying you are wrong, because I honestly don't know (nor do I care whether a club is cast or forged - I just pick the one I like best after hitting them), but I'm going to need an independent source for the whole "air bubbles" thing.

LOL...well Mizuno gives a good, very easy to understand explanation. I worked as a welder for quite a few years, so I took a lot of classes on metalurgy, metal forming process and how metal reacts.
While I dont doubt that vacuum casting has improved cast clubs, Im still not convinced that they are or ever will be as good as forgings.

 

[JB]

LOL...well Mizuno gives a good, very easy to understand explanation. I worked as a welder for quite a few years, so I took a lot of classes on metalurgy, metal forming process and how metal reacts.
While I dont doubt that vacuum casting has improved cast clubs, Im still not convinced that they are or ever will be as good as forgings.

So you condemn some companies for saying casting is as good because you call it marketing, and give credit to another company for saying forging is better even though its marketing....Hmmm...hehe

 

[Badger_Golfer]

Not at all, its marketing on both ends. Just as cast clubs arent just as good as forged clubs, its not as if cast clubs are junk.
The Mizuno website does give a very good, easy to understand explanation of the differences between casting and forging process though.

 

[JB]

Not at all, its marketing on both ends. Just as cast clubs arent just as good as forged clubs,

Who says?

 

[Badger_Golfer]

All it takes is a few minutes reading about the difference process to figure it why cast will never been just as good as forged. Im not talking about reading it in some golf magazine, website or listening to what some clubmaker has to say. Im talking reading in a book about metalurgy, metalforming process or any other kind of book that teaches about how metal reacts.
Anyone related to a golf comapny is going to have a hidden agenda as to why one process or the other is better. Its just like you said about how Roger Cleveland in one breath says that forged is better and in the other says cast is the greatest.

 

[JB]

Im very curious where a book says this. Honest to God curious. Everything we have read about vaccuum casting has changed that. PGA players say it. Clubmakers say it. Reviews say it. And so much more.

 

[Badger_Golfer]

Im very curious where a book says this. Honest to God curious. Everything we have read about vaccuum casting has changed that. PGA players say it. Clubmakers say it. Reviews say it. And so much more.

Do some reading, JB. Dont just take the word of people who are affiliated with golf companies.
Honestly, with how much less expensive casting is, if I ran a golf company Id probably push people towards cast clubs too. Especially because they can have the casting done in China using cheap labor and save a lot of money in manufacturing costs.
You should know more than anyone how much golf is driven by hype and marketing.

 

[JB]

Do some reading, JB. Dont just take the word of people who are affiliated with golf companies.
Honestly, with how much less expensive casting is, if I ran a golf company Id probably push people towards cast clubs too.
You should know more than anyone how much golf is driven by hype and marketing.

I have read and gone to seminars on this very subject. I am the one that has been talking about vaccuum casting, etc...I am still waiting for somebody to give me something that says otherwise other than "I can feel it" or regurgitate forging marketing.

 

[JPsuff]

I have read and gone to seminars on this very subject. I am the one that has been talking about vaccuum casting, etc...I am still waiting for somebody to give me something that says otherwise other than "I can feel it" or regurgitate forging marketing.

Yes and they've also been using vacuum casting for years for engine blocks - especially aluminum engine blocks because it keeps out as much air as possible to reduce the potential for air pockets.

But no matter what procedure is used for casting, the very process itself can in no way establish a grain in the metal the way that forging does and that, JB, is just physics and science and no amount of seminars or marketing BS is going to change that. And it is the presence of the grain in the metal that translates into the difference between the feel of a cast club and the feel of a forged club.


-JP

 

[JB]

Please do tell me and all the experts why it is that Grain is what causes the feel. Everybody else says its teh metal used and many more attributes, but I very much want to know why you say the grain is what causes feel.

Metal
Ball
Shaft
Ball striking

In that order is what everybody says creates feel. I see nothing about grain.

 

[v3.0]

....The Mizuno website does give a very good, easy to understand explanation of the differences between casting and forging process though.

Can I have a link? I tried to find it, but couldn't!

 

[JPsuff]

Please do tell me and all the experts why it is that Grain is what causes the feel. Everybody else says its teh metal used and many more attributes, but I very much want to know why you say the grain is what causes feel.

When a clubhead is forged from a billet, it's done along its long axis which preserves and tightens the grain of the metal that was created when the billet was drawn. Cast clubs do not have a grain since they are formed from molten metal and that metal simply cools and hardens.

The difference is like a piece of real wood versus a piece of particle board. The real wood has a grain and if one knocks on that piece of wood, it "rings" and transmits the vibration along its entire length. A piece of particle board has no grain because it's made from small bits of wood fibers, wood dust and glue and if one knocks on a piece of particle board, it has a sort of "dead" sound and doesn't transmit vibration very well at all.

The 'feel" of a forged club is the result of the metal's grain. A golf ball struck anywhere on the face of a forged club will cause a vibration throughout the entire piece of metal and that can be felt in the hands as that vibration or that "ring" travels along the clubhead and up the shaft (assuming a steel shaft). A golf ball struck by a cast club can be felt, but not in the same way that it is in a forged club because the cast metal doesn't transmit vibrations as efficiently or as nuanced as does forged steel because it lacks a grain. This is why when a shot is struck even a tiny bit off-center with a forged club, a player will often be able to tell how far off it was just by the way the club felt because a forged metal can telegraph even very subtle differences in vibration depending upon where on the face the ball was struck.

The softness or firmness of a clubhead can be discerned, even with cast metals and that is indeed due to the type of metal used in its production, but most people cannot detect the subtlety of where on the face the ball was struck with cast clubs because cast metal doesn't transmit vibration the way forged metal does.


-JP

 

[JB]

That was absolutely the case when air pockets existed in cast technology, but not the case since vaccuum casting. Using the analogy to real wood and particle board is just not the same sorry. But like I said, you keep believing anything you want to.

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

JB, I'm not sure if you realize it, but that statement actually hits the nail on the head.

Here's why:

A pro golfer, say in his late twenties, has been handling golf clubs of all sorts and hitting tens of thousands of shots with them - using them extensively day in and day out for about two decades. So it's not unusual to lose some sensitivity to the nuanced differences between various types of clubs. Add to that the fact that - as pro's - they're more interested in results than feel and you often end up with a person who really cannot tell the difference between a casting or a forging; because it's not really all that important to them and because the part of them that may have once been able to tell such a difference has (for lack of a better term) been "numbed" to a large extent.

An amateur, on the other hand, has a very limited exposure to the game and to equipment in general and as such can "feel" things from a far more objective position; one which hasn't been over-exposed to virtually every type of club ever made nor "deadened" by hitting tens of thousands of golf shots. It is that objectivity (along with a naturally fine sense of touch) which allows many amateurs to feel the subtleties and nuances that a seasoned pro or a seasoned clubmaker, for that matter, may no longer be capable of doing or sensing.

It's the same reason why married couples, having trouble with their relationships, often benefit from therapy; because a therapist knows nothing of either of them and may often see things that two people so close to each other may not.

The same is often true of many professions in that as one becomes entrenched in what they do for a living, they sometimes overlook or cease to notice the basic things that they may once have noticed and to which they paid great attention, but no longer regard as extant or even relevant. And just as in golf, it sometimes takes the observation of a comparative outsider to see something that the "pro" may be overlooking completely.


Just an observation, JB.


-JP

Are you smoking crack? A pro is more intuned with their clubs then 95% of amateurs