Will someone explain how closing the face adds loft?

[Nate]

pretty much

That's why I hate looking at a closed club face at address.

 

[SaffaClint]

I would add that in an ideal world, it would be great to be able to adjust loft without affecting how open or closed the club sets up at address. Some of these multiple ring adapters may address this to some degree, and TM tried to do it with the goofy sole plate thing that never worked for me.

This is possible with numerous drivers nowadays and they're far from the TM R1 with a million different cogs and dials etc.

 

[JB]

So in this case if you don't square it at impact on the closed position but return the face to it's org. position you will probably hook or pull the ball and in the open would probably slice or push the ball?

Not exactly and certainly not always. Many times the design of the club head, the weighting of the club head and quite a few other factors will play a role in this.

I still go back to people not really knowing what they are looking at to begin with however. I watched guy after guy sit and stare at the Razr Fit Xtreme last year and because it was set in the closed setting swear up and down that the driver head was closed. It was not. And then tell me at neutral that the driver head was closed or standard. When it was actually well over a degree open.

 

[mark blanchard]

I would add that in an ideal world, it would be great to be able to adjust loft without affecting how open or closed the club sets up at address. Some of these multiple ring adapters may address this to some degree, and TM tried to do it with the goofy sole plate thing that never worked for me.

The TMag "goofy sole plate" on the R11 - R1 generations never worked because it did not adjust anything on the club. It was nothing more than a "shim" or wedge set under the club that tried to "level" the club and set the face to the approximate setting indicated. Even in theory this would only work IF you rested the club on a hard, flat surface (unlike the grass of a tee box) and IF you didn't change its position as you completed your grip and stance (almost impossible to do). In practice it was an absolutely useless doo-dad and everything it purported to do would disappear if you shifted your grip ever so slightly.

IMO, one of the weakness of the rotating setting systems that re-orient the grip as you adjust (like TMag's), is that you can't use ribbed or reminder grips to insure that your hands are going back in the right places to produce a square set up, unless you regrip AFTER you find your magic setting. I find that properly installed ribbed grip helps you get back to that set up that works and it helps you know how to shift your hands to produce that lower draw or higher fade when you need to. The newer adapter systems with two factors of adjustment (Nike, Cally, Titleist, Wilson, Cobra) allow you to keep the shaft and grip orientation the same (and ideally tuned) while you fiddle with the various settings.

 

[BIGBALL]

Not exactly and certainly not always. Many times the design of the club head, the weighting of the club head and quite a few other factors will play a role in this.

I still go back to people not really knowing what they are looking at to begin with however. I watched guy after guy sit and stare at the Razr Fit Xtreme last year and because it was set in the closed setting swear up and down that the driver head was closed. It was not. And then tell me at neutral that the driver head was closed or standard. When it was actually well over a degree open.

This is so true JB. And not only that, sometimes our eyes, even without a preconceived notion, can fool us. I took a lesson from my instructor one time, and I swore the club face was square, but he said I was setting up to it open. He came over and held the club, then had me look from his vantage point, and he was spot on. Seen friends do the same thing. Our eyes can definitely be deceiving...

 

[mark blanchard]

This is so true JB. And not only that, sometimes our eyes, even without a preconceived notion, can fool us. I took a lesson from my instructor one time, and I swore the club face was square, but he said I was setting up to it open. He came over and held the club, then had me look from his vantage point, and he was spot on. Seen friends do the same thing. Our eyes can definitely be deceiving...

What makes matters worse: a) driver faces are CURVED SURFACES not flat planes, b) they're often not painted in helpful contrasting colors to their crowns (i.e. silver to white and black to black), c) most crown graphics are not painted in a way that helps us find a square set up, and d) we're looking at all of the above from acute side angles, not from directly above. It's a wonder we ever get it right. We're not orienting t-squares with carpenters' levels, we're trying to guesstimate badly-doodled Easter eggs!

 

[TNTCigarguy]

That totally makes sense now that it is explained but I agree my mind doesnt see it that way.

 

[CobraX51]

Alright so lately if you see old threads bumped it's just google searches I am doing and find THP ones that could help out. I'm not the most techy guy, I see people on here talking about different manufacturers of shafts, grips, etc and I'm lost on that, I keep it basic but am trying to expand my knowledge.

I got my driver earlier this year, without being fitted for it(I know), and set it to Draw bias at 10.5*. I'm not getting all I can out of my driver, and I think a part of that is my swing speed with driver is around 80-90. And from what I am gathering, with that swing speed I should increase the loft on my driver to 11.5 or even 12.5. I've never messed around with the loft, but I see the increased loft reduces spin and will get the most carry based on my swing speed.

Increasing the loft also will slightly shut the club face and my miss has been left to right. I'm going to the range today since I feel good and am going to experiment with the increased loft, I am cautiously optimistic I'll see an increase in distance and accuracy.

 

[baddog]

The TMag "goofy sole plate" on the R11 - R1 generations never worked because it did not adjust anything on the club.

IMO, one of the weakness of the rotating setting systems that re-orient the grip as you adjust (like TMag's), is that you can't use ribbed or reminder grips to insure that your hands are going back in the right places to produce a square set up, unless you regrip AFTER you find your magic setting...

The newer adapter systems with two factors of adjustment (Nike, Cally, Titleist, Wilson, Cobra) allow you to keep the shaft and grip orientation the same (and ideally tuned) while you fiddle with the various settings.

All adjustable hosels work the same, regardless of the Kool-Aid anyone is trying to serve you. They only can change the face angle and the lie, that's it. No hosel changes the loft, it's the golfer that changes the by adjusting the horizontal face angle back to the original standard setting.

Loft is the vertical face angle from the face to the sole of the club and that's always been measured by with the club resting on the ground at address. That's ditto for the face angle (horizontal) and lie. If you sole your 10° driver that you've adjust to 12° it's still a 10°, but with the face angle adjusted ~2° closed. It's up to you, the golfer to hold the club so you rotate the face angle 2° back to standard and you do that by rotating the grip in your hands. By doing so, you are now presenting an effective loft of 12° to the ball with a 10° driver.

So as goofy as the TM sole plate might have been or how ineffective, it was actually changing the loft based on the traditional method of how loft is measured.

 

[moosejaa]

Just got a knowledge bomb on this today. Had my driver set to the "high" loft and always felt the face felt closed at address. Set it to low and now it fits my eye so much better...completely counter-intuitive IMO.
Thanks @scrap iron.

 

[Phil75070]

All adjustable hosels work the same, regardless of the Kool-Aid anyone is trying to serve you. They only can change the face angle and the lie, that's it. No hosel changes the loft, it's the golfer that changes the by adjusting the horizontal face angle back to the original standard setting.

Loft is the vertical face angle from the face to the sole of the club and that's always been measured by with the club resting on the ground at address. That's ditto for the face angle (horizontal) and lie. If you sole your 10° driver that you've adjust to 12° it's still a 10°, but with the face angle adjusted ~2° closed. It's up to you, the golfer to hold the club so you rotate the face angle 2° back to standard and you do that by rotating the grip in your hands. By doing so, you are now presenting an effective loft of 12° to the ball with a 10° driver.

So as goofy as the TM sole plate might have been or how ineffective, it was actually changing the loft based on the traditional method of how loft is measured.

I thought or thought I read that with the double adapters like the Optifit from Callaway that face angle and loft were independent of each other.

 

[Scrap Iron]

Just got a knowledge bomb on this today. Had my driver set to the "high" loft and always felt the face felt closed at address. Set it to low and now it fits my eye so much better...completely counter-intuitive IMO.
Thanks @scrap iron.

It makes no sense to me but people smarter than me designed it and it's true. I find the face angle at address can easily get in my head and more often than not I play drivers at their stated loft and have hit more fairways. I leave a lot on the table because I don't optimize the club.