Now Watson calls Tiger out
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- #77
Wouldn't be a market for his autograph? You serious?
Tiger could spend an hour of every tournament day he plays just to sign autographs. That still wouldn't affect the market for them in the least bit.
I'm not an autograph guy myself either, but I know the sports memorabilia market, and autographs for guys like Tiger are a big deal. I also know that him signing a few autographs at tournaments wouldn't have any kind of bearing on the market what so ever.
Harry Longshanks
ILikeBigPutts&ICannotLie
You are criticizing someone for criticizing someone.
That is hypocritical.
You are claiming someone should be treated differently than everyone else because you think he is special.
That is hero worship/putting someone on a pedestal.
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- #79
Hold on. At the risk of sounding like a 7 year old, Tom started this. I'm definitely not the only one who feels Tom is out of bounds by talking about this.
The only time I said Tiger should be treated differently was about the Ryder Cup. If you want to win, you should want the best player in the world on your team, regardless. If Phil wasn't playing in tournaments and didn't qualify, but yet wanted to play in the Ryder Cup, I would feel THE SAME WAY.
I said give Tiger a little lee-way about the behavior. It's been said already, others act just as bad as Tiger does, but w/ Tiger, it's magnified and talked about.
If Tom wants to talk about Tiger's behavior, talk about the others too. Or better yet, don't talk about other golfers in a bad way AT ALL. If they're not doing anything to you, keep your mouth shut. Tom wants Tiger to talk publicly about all of his affairs. Well, since Tom didn't talk about anything when he was going through personal things, why is Tom saying anything about that issue?
Tom needs to keep quiet. Phil handled this well. Others handled this well. MOST golfers know better than to comment on something that is either none of their business or has nothing to do w/ them.
Harry Longshanks
ILikeBigPutts&ICannotLie
Watson started it? By commenting? Woods had no role?
If that's your reasoning, then Watson didn't start it - you did. Because you commented on the commenting.
So your argument is that everyone else is doing it, so that makes it ok?
And by the way, who else curses and throws their clubs as routinely as Woods?
So, Tom Watson should "keep his mouth shut" about something he knows a great deal about (proper behavior on a golf course), but you shouldn't have to "shut [your] mouth"?
Also, you keep calling Watson hypocritical because he wants Woods "talk publicly about all of his affairs." Please show me exactly where Watson said that. And I don't mean some sports blog summarizing Watson. I mean the exact quotes from Watson's mouth. Because what I heard and read was Watson saying that Woods histrionics on the golf course are bad for the game and that Woods needs to demonstrate some humility and act like a grown up on the course.
Dude, seriously. If you can't see the flaw in your reasoning on this, then you have an even bigger blind spot than I initially thought.
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- #81
Your exact thoughts here are the definition of hero worship and putting him on a pedestal. His on course behavior is absolutely TERRIBLE. Is it illegal? Actually depending on where you are possibly. But throwing out F bombs after every bad shot is TERRIBLE.
Is it enough to not root for the guy? Of course not. But couple that with the disgusting things he has done off the course now and you have a human being that cares very little for others around him which is obvious. My problem? Of course not. His problem? Perhaps.
Dont say nobody gets on those others, because if you read this board regularly through out a year I am just as critical on Christie Kerr and Morgan Pressell for behavior and throwing clubs, whining, and acting a "fool".
But to say his personal issues DONT Matter in this argument is flat out wrong. I said that I DIDNT CARE, when making my last point. Not that they dont matter. If I was known throughout the industry as a great person in ways of charity, but at the same time cheated on my wife multiple times throughout our marriage. Talk about loving family despite putting mine in the back seat to strippers and waitresses. Talk about it being about the fans yet if children tune in they must watch out because an F bomb and club throwing disaster could be coming after every shot. To just say that none of this matters is quite frankly a JOKE!
While temper tantrums, infidelity, and so many other problems may not matter to you and not make a huge difference to me (because I was not a fan before)they matter to millions of people out there.
And this line sums it all up!!! You wrote
Hold on. At the risk of sounding like a 7 year old, Tom started this. I'm definitely not the only one who feels Tom is out of bounds by talking about this.
UMMMM LAST TIME I CHECKED, IT WAS STARTED BECAUSE OF A MANS BEHAVIOR, NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE WAS TALKING ABOUT IT!!!!
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- #82
Are these quotes telling enough?
Tom NEVER took ownership of anything that happened in his personal life. But yet, Tiger should. Ok.............
And, dude, I'm a wee little man on a golf blog. We talk about stuff like this. I'm not a well known professional golfer talking publicly about something that has nothing to do w/ me. That comparison sucks, to say the least.
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- #83
I won't argue w/ most of this. If I have to be labeled a Tiger fan boy, then so be it.
I agree that this was started from someones behavior.
However, Tom, and other golfers can and should let the authoritive figures do something about behavior problems, rather than talk about it publicly. If Tom feels he needs to do something, he can try to do it privately.
Harry Longshanks
ILikeBigPutts&ICannotLie
That's the problem. No one is doing anything about it. Everyone at PGA Tour HQ is afraid of losing their meal ticket. So if the PGA won't do it, then who other than a respected elder statesman of the Tour is qualified to do it? Unlike Palmer (Bay Hill) and Nicklaus (Memorial), Watson has no ties to a tournament needing Woods. Plus, Palmer and Woods are friends, and Nicklaus can't say anything because he would be seen as petty because it is Woods who has the best shot at breaking his records.
And Watson did try to do it privately:
Watson has advice for Tiger…on and off the course - Press Tent
JPsuff
Banned
To be fair, Watson was asked specifically about Tiger, so what else was he going to do - talk about Nicklaus? They asked him for his opinion and he gave them his opinion.
Also, it may be true that Watson has some skeletons in his own closet, but does that mean that he's incapable of offering an opinion or "not allowed" to do so? You know, experience is the best teacher and what better source of knowledge could there be than one's own experiences?
If that were not true, then organizations such as AA would never have been formed. Wouldn't AA be a bunch of hypocrites because one drunk is telling someone else about the evils of drinking?
I don't believe that any one person has the right answer or the best plan for Tiger's future, but certainly everyone who's interested has an opinion of what that should be and they're certainly entitled to express that opinion. No one said that Tom Watson "demanded" that Tiger do anything and I don't think that Tom would do that anyway. He's just offering Tiger some friendly and possibly hard-earned wisdom.
And as I've said before, even I think that Tiger could tone down the histrionics and I'm his biggest defender in that regard. There comes a time in everyone's life when they have to leave the child behind and embrace the adult.
-JP
Also, it may be true that Watson has some skeletons in his own closet, but does that mean that he's incapable of offering an opinion or "not allowed" to do so? You know, experience is the best teacher and what better source of knowledge could there be than one's own experiences?
If that were not true, then organizations such as AA would never have been formed. Wouldn't AA be a bunch of hypocrites because one drunk is telling someone else about the evils of drinking?
I don't believe that any one person has the right answer or the best plan for Tiger's future, but certainly everyone who's interested has an opinion of what that should be and they're certainly entitled to express that opinion. No one said that Tom Watson "demanded" that Tiger do anything and I don't think that Tom would do that anyway. He's just offering Tiger some friendly and possibly hard-earned wisdom.
And as I've said before, even I think that Tiger could tone down the histrionics and I'm his biggest defender in that regard. There comes a time in everyone's life when they have to leave the child behind and embrace the adult.
-JP
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- #86
Why does anything need to be done?
For the childrens sake?
If the PGA doesn't feel the need to do anything about Tiger, then it's evidently not as bad as you want it to be.
Don't give me this, "they're scared of the meal ticket" stuff either. If the PGA leaves him alone, so should everyone else.
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- #87
I dont buy that for a second. Not in relation to this or anything else. If a guy acts a fool, public perception is what matters and nothing else. The court system said OJ was innocent the first time, does that make it so? Should I have let OJ back into the football world since the court system said he was innocent? (and no, I am not comparing crimes)
I disagree with a lot of what the PGA does. I think that at times too much was made of the Tiger is a bad guy thing, but to give him a pass because he is "Tiger Woods" is flat out absurd.
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- #88
Phil was asked about Tiger, he basically said no comment.
It's not that hard to do.
Tom never had the weight of golf on his shoulders. Tom never had a quarter of the ability to play golf as Tiger. Tom didn't have over a dozen ladies coming out saying they were w/ him.
Tiger is in a situation that no one has ever been in, ever.
Harry Longshanks
ILikeBigPutts&ICannotLie
JPsuff
Banned
You know, I really can't stand the whole "for the sake of the children" argument overall. My opinion is that you can't protect children from everything and you can't "child proof" life and sooner or later the children are going to have to live that life and the more "reality" they learn about, the better off they'll be.
That said, I do think that Tiger could tone down his "bad shot" reactions a bit. As I've said, I think they've become more of an attention grabber than a genuine reaction to a bad shot and that just shows insecurity more than angst. It may have been something that he's done since he was a child, but he's 33 now and very much an adult and as such, his outbursts seem more and more out of place.
I know he'll never be "Mister Rogers" and I don't want him to be. But I also don't care for the constant blowups and the sourpuss histrionics and I see it as an act that's getting old.
Then there are the fans.
There seems to be an increasing number of people who would like it if he toned things down a bit and if he has any respect for the fans at all, he needs to take that into consideration. This isn't, after all, the Tiger Tour, it's the PGA Tour and he has to stop acting as if the world revolves only around him. Should he stop getting mad at a bad shot? Absolutely not. But I don't think it would hurt him if he reacted a little less like he was the protagonist in a Greek tragedy.
-JP
JPsuff
Banned
All true.
But that still doesn't mean that Tom and Phil can't or don't have an opinion nor does it stipulate that neither of them should express that opinion. It just so happens that Tom chose to say what was on his mind and Phil didn't.
It's a free country.
Look, I am a lifetime Tiger fan and even if he shot the pope, that still wouldn't change my opinion of him as a golfer. But if he did shoot the pope, I'd be nuts to think that no one would have anything to say about that and right now, there are many people who equate what he did with shooting the pope. There's nothing I can do about that and there's nothing I can do to stop any of them from saying what's on their minds.
All I can do is continue to be a Tiger fan and move on.
-JP
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- #93
I don't care what the rest say about you, you're alright in my book. :clapp:
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- #94
So let me see if I get this right. According to you, if you have an opinion and are in a spotlight type of position, you must keep it to yourself.
And if you are extremely talented in a certain field you get a pass?
The weight of golf? You must be kidding. WHile he was and is the best, I still see tournaments going on right now. He is the biggest draw, but millions still watch it every week whether he is there or not.
And lastly, your argument is that since you have a bunch of people admire and throw themselves at you, you are allowed less morals? The vows that you took mean nothing?
I am amazed that this started off as a good debate and has turned into nothing more than fandom and hero worship so quickly.
Harry Longshanks
ILikeBigPutts&ICannotLie
JPsuff
Banned
The only problem I have with a statement such as this is that I personally believe that morality is in the eye of the beholder and that what one person sees as amoral another may simply see as "different". So to judge Tiger in terms of morality is purely based upon an individual's perception of what is moral and cannot be attacked with a broad "yes or no" brush.
For example, there are a fair number of married people and even entire cultures in this world who don't see an affair as all that big a deal while others see it as a capital offense. So when someone hangs the morality tag on what Tiger did, it's always going to be more subjective than objective.
As far as the entitlement part goes - that a person's fame absolves them of many behaviors for which everyday people would be called upon the carpet to answer for - I agree that Tiger deserves no special treatment in that regard. Whether what he did is moral or amoral may be one thing, but the fact that it served to disrupt his profession and cause it to be placed under a microscope is a fact and I think that he needs to address at least that part of it.
But even though Tiger's behavior has caused a public and professional stir, the specifics and circumstances of what he did are still something that should be left for he and his family to sort out in private and although many people may have opinions about his behavior as it applies to their concept of morality, he is under no obligation to "answer for" any of that to anyone other than his family.
-JP
andimetrum
Impervious to calculation
LOL! That is totally what this thread reminds me of! Too perfect.
LEAVE TIGER ALONE!!!
Esox
New member
Finally found a mention of the Dan Jenkins column. It's going to be in the April Golf Digest. All I found was one paragraph posedt twenty minutes ago on, believe it or not, The Milwaukee JournalSentinel Online. Here's what there was. You need the lead up to fully appreciate it.
Kevin
Kevin
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- #99
JP,
While you are technically right, the entire discussion that I was speaking of was the argument of public perception. And that cannot be debated. No athlete has fallen from grace faster than this person. The argument of this thread is whether or not Watson has a right to speak and apparently according to some, Mr. Woods cannot be criticized by anybody let alone a person of similar figure.
While you are technically right, the entire discussion that I was speaking of was the argument of public perception. And that cannot be debated. No athlete has fallen from grace faster than this person. The argument of this thread is whether or not Watson has a right to speak and apparently according to some, Mr. Woods cannot be criticized by anybody let alone a person of similar figure.
JPsuff
Banned
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