We've launched the new forums! Read more here

Fourputt-Rules Question?

Esox

Esox

New member
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
13,621
Reaction score
169
Location
SE Cheeseland
Handicap
4.7
Today Michelle Wie tried to chop out of a water hazard and left the ball within the hazard. She then grounded the club, an obvious two stroke penalty. To me it looked like she grounded the club after the shot, but in the process of doing that, picked the club up for a split second, then it went back down, essentially grounding it twice, but in one unbalanced motion. Is that two penalties? Or can you ground the club in a hazard just once between attempts to extricate the ball from the hazard?

Does my question even make sense?

Kevin
 
I saw that today and was confused. I waited until the tournament was over and listened to Michelle try to explain what she was thinking confused me even more. I couldnt make heads or tails of what she was trying to say. I turned off the TV and still dont know what the final ruling of if there was one.
 
I didn't see it but a question. Was the ball in flight still the first time she grounded it?

You mentioned unbalanced. You are allowed to ground a club in a hazard to keep yourself from falling. It's exception 1 under rule 13-4.( Don't ask but my decisions book is with me in the office).

Decision 13-4/8 talks about when a club is considered grounded in grass inside a water hazard. The answer was the club is grounded if the grass is supporting the weight of the club. So you can touch the grass and my take is you can set the club down in the grass as long as you are holding it up even if it looks virtually grounded.
 
As Bortass said, you can do so to keep from falling or as a cane when climbing in or out of a bunker.

13-4/3.5 Player Uses Cane or Club to Enter or Leave Hazard When Ball Lies in Hazard

Q. A player, to prevent falling, uses a cane or club to enter or leave a hazard when his ball lies in the hazard. Is the player in breach of Rule 13-4?

A. No, provided nothing is done which constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball — see Exception 1 to Rule 13-4.
Click to expand...
 
Apparently it was ruled that she was not just doing it to keep her balance. I didn't see the incident so I can't second the officials who were on the spot. They reviewed the tape and ruled it a breach. I have to assume that they had reasonable evidence that she was in error.

Ms. Wie needs to do some in depth study of the rules. This is the second time in a couple of years that she has come afoul of what should be a pretty simple situation. Last time she was DQ'ed for signing an incorrect scorecard. That time she also incurred a penalty (for playing from a wrong place), but she didn't add the 2 penalty strokes to her score on that hole.
 
I knew it was penalty. I was wondering if she could have been assessed two penalties because it looked to me like she hit the ball, grounded the club, lifted it off the ground for a split second, then grounded it again for a split second. Touched the ground twice, albeit with only a split second between the touches.

Kevin
 
I fully understand the rule.

My question is why? Why can't you ground your club, for whatever reason, in the hazard?
 
NikeGolf said:
I fully understand the rule.

My question is why? Why can't you ground your club, for whatever reason, in the hazard?
Click to expand...

To preclude improving one's lie.

Kevin
 
Yep, and if you dig it in there enough to improve your lie or the ball moves, it is a penalty (Google Kenny Perry is a cheat). The rules take that temptation away from the player when the ball is in a hazard.

Kevin
 
Esox said:
Yep, and if you dig it in there enough to improve your lie or the ball moves, it is a penalty (Google Kenny Perry is a cheat). The rules take that temptation away from the player when the ball is in a hazard.

Kevin
Click to expand...

Right. Then my main question, I guess, would be why can't that rule (improve lie rule) be enough? Why have a seperate, no grounding of club rule in the hazard?

To take away temptation as the main reason for it seems pretty flaky to me.
 
It's not only temptation. It's common sense. If you touch sand, how do you keep from moving it and thus improve your lie? Sand moves. Same goes with soft, wet, ground in a water hazard. Many golfers don't ground their club or press down outside of a hazardwhen in long grass or soft conditions. I know I often don't. Why take the chance?

Kevin
 
the ball was already in the rough when she grounded her club it only ended up like a foot and half outta of the water. she claims she was losing her balance and didnt want to land in the water in white shorts? but if you see the tape it doesnt look like she was off balance? but it also doesnt appear she grounded it on purpose? and certainly didnt improve her lie. either way its an archaic rule that needs to be updated or removed


http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-videos/wie-little-mishap-6803/
 
Sunday_Hacker said:
the ball was already in the rough when she grounded her club it only ended up like a foot and half outta of the water. she claims she was losing her balance and didnt want to land in the water in white shorts? but if you see the tape it doesnt look like she was off balance? but it also doesnt appear she grounded it on purpose? and certainly didnt improve her lie. either way its an archaic rule that needs to be updated or removed


http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-videos/wie-little-mishap-6803/
Click to expand...

+1 on Diane's question. Why should that rule be changed?

Attention everyone. I understand the rule. I'm asking FourPutt if a player can be assessed two penalties if he/she grounds his club, picks it up briefly (for like an instant), then grounds it again? The way I interpret the rule, it could be two penalties.

Kevin
 
I think I found your answer Kevin.

3. Multiple Occurrences of the Same or Similar Acts Result in One Rule Being Breached More Than Once — Single Penalty Applied
Example 1: In stroke play, a competitor takes several practice swings in a hazard, touching the ground each time. The ruling would be a single two-stroke penalty (see Decision 13-4/3).

Example 2: In stroke play, a player removes sand on his line of play through the green and presses down a replaced divot which is also on his line of play. The ruling would be a single two-stroke penalty.
4. Different Acts Result in Two Rules Being Breached, but Breach of Second Rule Is a Direct Consequence of the Initial Breach — Single Penalty Applied
Example: In stroke play, a competitor's ball moves prior to address and while it is in motion it is accidentally stopped by the competitor's club in breach of Rule 19-2. The competitor then moves the club and, therefore, moves his ball, normally a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a. This would result in a single one-stroke penalty under Rule 19-2 (see Decision 19-2/1.5). If the ball is not replaced before the competitor makes his next stroke, the failure to replace the ball is considered a separate act and he incurs an additional penalty of two strokes under Rule 18-2a.
Click to expand...
 
Esox said:
Finally. Thanks, Cupcake.

Kevin
Click to expand...

Other than Fourputt who is a certified rules official, I think there are only 2 of us here who enjoying reading the Rules of Golf - Harry and me. Although I would imagine that SD knows the rules as well as Fourputt. Oh and Ty - he likes the rules too.
 
NikeGolf said:
I fully understand the rule.

My question is why? Why can't you ground your club, for whatever reason, in the hazard?
Click to expand...

Because you are not allowed to do anything that might be construed as testing the condition of the hazard while your ball lies in the hazard. It is simply a prohibition that applies to hazards. There doesn't need to be any other reason for it. There are a number of things which you can do through the green but are penalized for when your ball lies in a hazard. Touching the surface with your hand or club is just one of those prohibitions.
 
Sunday_Hacker said:
the ball was already in the rough when she grounded her club it only ended up like a foot and half outta of the water. she claims she was losing her balance and didnt want to land in the water in white shorts? but if you see the tape it doesnt look like she was off balance? but it also doesnt appear she grounded it on purpose? and certainly didnt improve her lie. either way its an archaic rule that needs to be updated or removed


http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-videos/wie-little-mishap-6803/
Click to expand...

See my answer above. Intent doesn't matter in this case, only the fact that she clearly touched the ground with her club within the hazard while her ball was still in it. If you don't like that answer, then I can't help you. The Rule is what it is.



Esox said:
+1 on Diane's question. Why should that rule be changed?

Attention everyone. I understand the rule. I'm asking FourPutt if a player can be assessed two penalties if he/she grounds his club, picks it up briefly (for like an instant), then grounds it again? The way I interpret the rule, it could be two penalties.

Kevin
Click to expand...

Diane got here before me. For multiple identical breaches you only get assessed one penalty. If you take a practice swing in a bunker and hit the sand, then do it 3 more times, still just one 2 stroke penalty. However..... if you take the first swing and are apprised that you have just incurred a penalty, then take another one and hit the sand again, it would be treated as 2 separate infractions, with 2 penalties applied. The committee could even be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification for continuing blatant disregard of a rule in that way.
 
Diane said:
Other than Fourputt who is a certified rules official, I think there are only 2 of us here who enjoying reading the Rules of Golf - Harry and me. Although I would imagine that SD knows the rules as well as Fourputt. Oh and Ty - he likes the rules too.
Click to expand...

Wrong :clown:. I like to read them too. I have read the last two decisions books a number of times but wouldn't call myself an expert by any means.

I was gonna mention what Diane already did about multiple penalties. There's a little chart in the decisions book that lays out how to handle multiple infractions based on the scenario.

I gotta check the USGA site to see if I can get the 2010 decisions book. Thanks for making me think of it!
 
Decision 1-4/12 is a long read, but it covers many of the possible multiple infraction/multiple act scenarios.

1-4/12 Player Breaches Rules More Than Once Prior to Stroke; Whether Multiple Penalties Applied

Prior to making a stroke, there may be circumstances where a player breaches a Rule more than once, or breaches different Rules and it would seem that a penalty should be applied to each separate breach. However, in the majority of cases and based on equity (Rule 1-4), it would not be appropriate to apply multiple penalties.

For the purpose of applying the principles in this Decision, Rules 4-3a, 4-3b, 4-3c, 13-4a, 13-4b, 13-4c, 14-2a, 14-2b, 17-3a, 17-3b, 17-3c, 18-2a and 18-2b should be considered as separate Rules.

Below are the specific principles to be applied when determining whether multiple penalties are appropriate when more than one breach has occurred prior to a player making a stroke:

1. Single Act Results in One Rule Being Breached More Than Once — Single Penalty Applied
Example: In stroke play, a competitor's ball on the putting green strikes a fellow-competitor's ball in breach of Rule 19-5 and then strikes another fellow-competitor's ball, also in breach of Rule 19-5. The ruling would be a single two-stroke penalty (see Decision 19-5/3).

2. Single Act Results in Two Rules Being Breached — Single Penalty Applied
Example: In stroke play, a competitor is considering putting his ball from a bunker and rakes a footprint in the bunker on his line of play. Both Rule 13-2 and Rule 13-4a have been breached. The ruling would be a single two-stroke penalty.

3. Multiple Occurrences of the Same or Similar Acts Result in One Rule Being Breached More Than Once — Single Penalty Applied
Example 1: In stroke play, a competitor takes several practice swings in a hazard, touching the ground each time. The ruling would be a single two-stroke penalty (see Decision 13-4/3).

Example 2: In stroke play, a player removes sand on his line of play through the green and presses down a replaced divot which is also on his line of play. The ruling would be a single two-stroke penalty.

4. Different Acts Result in Two Rules Being Breached, but Breach of Second Rule Is a Direct Consequence of the Initial Breach — Single Penalty Applied
Example: In stroke play, a competitor's ball moves prior to address and while it is in motion it is accidentally stopped by the competitor's club in breach of Rule 19-2. The competitor then moves the club and, therefore, moves his ball, normally a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a. This would result in a single one-stroke penalty under Rule 19-2 (see Decision 19-2/1.5). If the ball is not replaced before the competitor makes his next stroke, the failure to replace the ball is considered a separate act and he incurs an additional penalty of two strokes under Rule 18-2a.

5. Different Acts Result in Two Rules Being Breached — Multiple Penalties Applied
Example: In stroke play, a competitor (1) touches the ground in a hazard with his club while taking practice swings in a hazard and (2) improves his line of play by bending a shrub with his hand. The ruling would be a two-stroke penalty under Rule 13-4 (touching the ground in a hazard with his club) and a further penalty of two strokes under Rule 13-2 (improving his line of play by moving something growing), giving a total penalty of four strokes (see Decision 13-4/28).

6. Different Acts Result in One Rule Being Breached More Than Once — Multiple Penalties Applied
Example: In stroke play, a competitor (1) purposely steps on another player's line of putt with the intention of improving the line, and then (2) purposely stops his own ball in motion after it began moving without apparent cause before address. The ruling would be two separate penalties, each of two strokes, for breaches of Rule 1-2, giving a total penalty of four strokes.
Click to expand...
 
Bortass said:
Wrong :clown:. I like to read them too. I have read the last two decisions books a number of times but wouldn't call myself an expert by any means.
Click to expand...

I'll remember for next time.
 
Example 2: In stroke play, a player removes sand on his line of play through the green and presses down a replaced divot which is also on his line of play. The ruling would be a single two-stroke penalty.

Wait, does this mean that when putting, I can't move a twig out of my line, or repair a ball mark in my line that someone left behind? :confused2:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top