LPGA Cheating Scandal -Two LPGA players involved in a disqualification turned fishy

[Esox]

JP, it's obvious you're trolling with some of your "opinions". You also condescend with your comments about intelligence, and you do it often.

Those things aside, you've stated your opinions. I've tried to have a discussion with you about your opinions. In order to do so I wanted your definition of a "serious golfer" and you never gave it.

In this thread, I'm trying to discuss your assumptions regarding the thought processes of these two young women. I'm disagreeing with your assumptions, and am questioning how the actions you described could be considered pragmatic. I think there's a serious flaw in your assumptions. I'm asking you to explain how the choice to ignore or cover up playing the wrong balls could in any way be pragmatic considering the possible ramifications of such actions.

You like to say you have opinions. Back them up. Explain them. You're an intelligent guy. I'm guessing there're a couple English or history papers in your background. When you make an argument you have to back it with facts, or at least sound reasoning. When you constantly have to say you're misunderstood, it's a pretty strong indication you're not conveying your thoughts very well.

Kevin

 

[JPsuff]

i think he's just trying to get you to just straight up answer a question.....i've never seen anyone cloud one's own perspective as much as you do. i'm sure that esox enjoys making his "churlish remarks and sardonic comments" b/c you don't have the decency to answer the mans most simplistic questions.

you have an impressive knowledge of the game of golf, and an impressive vocabulary, yet you can't honestly answer the most elementary questions. quite frankly, it comes across with a highbrow tone. you keep saying that you're misunderstood or that we take your responses out of context, but it's just not the case. i completely saw your point concerning what may have gone down between these two young ladies, but you're the same guy that ridicules lift, clean and place. what are we suppose to think?

Questions such as what? What is a serious golfer?

This board is populated by hundreds of people who have seen and heard the term “serious golfer” a thousand times and in a thousand different ways in their lives and know exactly what that term means, yet everyone seems to want to know “what I meant by that”.

What you really want is for me to offer up some definition so you can pick it apart and tell me how “elitist” I am or that I don't "get it" and I’m not playing that game. As far as “decency” is concerned, I have no problem talking to anyone or answering anyone’s questions but I draw the line at responding to mindless baiting as part of some game of “gotcha”.

I answer questions all the time, often in great detail and if I come across as “highbrow” all I can say is that there are tens of thousands of words in the English language and I enjoy using as many of them as I can in as many different ways that I can and I see nothing wrong with that and I’m certainly not going to apologize for broadening my horizons in that regard. It’s sad that others don’t share my zeal.

You also say that you don’t take me out of context, yet the example you use does just that. You say that you understand what I was saying about those two young ladies (and I believe that you do) yet you follow it with mention of my ridicule of Lift, Clean and Place.

I believe that L,C,&P is a ridiculous “rule” but that’s an opinion about a rule.
My thoughts on those two young ladies was about what they might have been thinking when they realized that they had played the wrong balls. I did not suggest that playing a wrong ball shouldn’t be a rules infraction nor did I suggest that they should be sent on their way without penalty. As far as I’m concerned, these are two completely separate things, so why are you trying to join them?

So essentially, you saw my point about the two ladies and I ridicule L, C&P.

What has one to do with the other? And what are you supposed to think about what? That I have two separate opinions about two separate things? You’ve completely lost me on this; perhaps you could explain it a bit more?

I really don't understand what you're trying to say.

(Ironic, huh?)


-JP

 

[TC]

i just find it interesting that someone like you, who finds rules such as lift, clean and place to be against the spirit of the game, yet when it comes to two players knowingly playing the wrong ball, that's understandable by you. it's just a very interesting perspective.

i think a serious golfer is someone who works on their game and plays golf in order to shoot the best scores for themselves possible (for the record)

 

[JPsuff]

JP, it's obvious you're trolling with some of your "opinions". You also condescend with your comments about intelligence, and you do it often.

Those things aside, you've stated your opinions. I've tried to have a discussion with you about your opinions. In order to do so I wanted your definition of a "serious golfer" and you never gave it.

In this thread, I'm trying to discuss your assumptions regarding the thought processes of these two young women. I'm disagreeing with your assumptions, and am questioning how the actions you described could be considered pragmatic. I think there's a serious flaw in your assumptions. I'm asking you to explain how the choice to ignore or cover up playing the wrong balls could in any way be pragmatic considering the possible ramifications of such actions.

You like to say you have opinions. Back them up. Explain them. You're an intelligent guy. I'm guessing there're a couple English or history papers in your background. When you make an argument you have to back it with facts, or at least sound reasoning. When you constantly have to say you're misunderstood, it's a pretty strong indication you're not conveying your thoughts very well.

Kevin

Kevin, I have offered explanations and reasoning since this thread began. I actually took the time to look and there are examples of this in posts: 10, 22, 28, 38, 48, 57 and 68.

With all due respect, if that's not enough for you then I'm at a loss as to what else I could offer. :confused2:


-JP

 

[Smallville]

How about we drop it and move on to something else? No one's giving in and nothing new is being presented.

 

[Esox]

Kevin, I have offered explanations and reasoning since this thread began. I actually took the time to look and there are examples of this in posts: 10, 22, 28, 38, 48, 57 and 68.

With all due respect, if that's not enough for you then I'm at a loss as to what else I could offer. :confused2:


-JP

Do you really believe two professional golfers would essentially risk their careers just to get off the golf course without a little hassle? Come on, JP. Really? Or are the pragmatic comments something you threw out there without meaning it, and when questioned you don't want to back off?

Kevin

 

[JPsuff]

i just find it interesting that someone like you, who finds rules such as lift, clean and place to be against the spirit of the game, yet when it comes to two players knowingly playing the wrong ball, that's understandable by you. it's just a very interesting perspective.

i think a serious golfer is someone who works on their game and plays golf in order to shoot the best scores for themselves possible (for the record)

OK, now I see the problem.

Your use of the word "understandable" suggests that I condone their actions or that I see nothing wrong with what they did.

This is not the case.

I said that I understood why they did what they did but I never said that I agreed with what they did. It is possible to understand why someone might violate a rule without believing that they were right in violating it.

I believe that the two young ladies should have pointed out their mistake and that they should have then submitted to whatever procedures may have followed. This of course would have taken a great deal of time and considering the fact that they were playing the last hole of the tournament and that neither player was in contention to win, I can understand why they may have decided to ignore their having played the wrong ball in order to simply finish their round and go home.

I said that I understood what they did. But I never said that it was understandable in the sense that they should be allowed to have done it.

There is a difference.

It can seem like the same thing and I can understand why someone might be confused (in fact it was confusing as hell to write what I just wrote) so I can see where it could get confusing.

Put another way, I can understand why someone might see it differently and it's understandable that they might be confused.

(sorry, I couldn't resist that one)


-JP

 

[Badger_Golfer]

I cant help but make the observation that at this point JPsuff seems to be arguing just for the sake of arguing.

 

[TC]

I cant help but make the observation that at this point JPsuff seems to be arguing just for the sake of arguing.

+1......

 

[jnug]

I am going to preface this posting the way I ended my last posting by saying that while it appears that the two players did in fact play the wrong ball, if they reported it as soon as they discovered it and did not discuss the possibility of hiding what happened then in my I view the only problems they would have are those that relate to the original mistake to play the wrong ball. That said, if they did in fact play the wrong ball, they have also then gone on and signed scorecards that do not accurately reflect their scores for that round as their penalties are not properly accounted for in those scorecards. I frankly don’t remember what the penalty for signing a wrong scorecard is but off the top of my head I think it’s a DQ isn’t it?

 

[JPsuff]

Do you really believe two professional golfers would essentially risk their careers just to get off the golf course without a little hassle? Come on, JP. Really? Or are the pragmatic comments something you threw out there without meaning it, and when questioned you don't want to back off?

Kevin

*Sigh*

Look, for the (let me check...) EIGHTH time I don't believe that the thought of risking their careers even crossed their mind. I don't believe that they thought that simply playing out the hole "as is" was really that big a deal.

I think what I find myself reacting to regarding your posts and those of others is the "drama" that you and they are assigning to this incident - as if these girls were golf's version of "Thelma and Louise" who decided to point their careers towards the canyon and hit the gas.

I do not believe that it was any such thing.

I believe that once on the green they simply realized that they'd played the wrong balls and since both were likely to par out, they honestly saw no harm in doing just that and saving themselves a huge hassle.

I really don't think it's anything more than that and I really don't think that they realized just what a firestorm it would cause if someone found out.

This goes back to what I said about many pro's not knowing the rules of the game. Pro golfers play golf and their basic function is to hit the ball, walk to where it landed and then hit it again. I really do think that many pro's - though they may be aware of the rules - aren't fully understanding of the consequences involved with much of those rules and I think that this case is a good example of that. I think it's possible that these ladies didn't understand this rule in all of it's detail. Maybe they thought that if they pointed out their error, that they would just have to go back and play their second shots again (without penalty) and, thinking that, they may have shrugged and decided that there was no real difference between that and playing the balls they played, so they just played on.

Who knows?

But the one thing I'd bet on is that they didn't "knowingly" do a lot of things and instead did what they did either out of ignorance or truly believing that there was no real harm in it.

I know a lot of people want to believe that the term "professional" means that there is all kinds of deep thought and wisdom and deep understanding of one's craft.

But sometimes, "professional" just means that they get paid for it and that's it.


-JP

 

[JPsuff]

I cant help but make the observation that at this point JPsuff seems to be arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Arguing for it's own sake is arguing in it's purest form :thumb:

Now you're getting it!



-JP

 

[JB]

One of the mods came in and asked to move on. MOVE ON!

 

[Smallville]

Thanks, I was wondering if I was invisible for a minute there.

 

[the_paulo]

Thanks, I was wondering if I was invisible for a minute there.

Who said that? :wi

Ever walked the wrong way down a street, and instead of just going back a few steps and turning the other way, you just keep walking and trying to appear like you know where you're going?

It'll be interesting to see what comes out of this situation with the LPGA.

 

[JB]

Who said that? :wi

Ever walked the wrong way down a street, and instead of just going back a few steps and turning the other way, you just keep walking and trying to appear like you know where you're going?

It'll be interesting to see what comes out of this situation with the LPGA.

Your posts are AWESOME. That is a great look at things!

 

[the_paulo]

Thanks JB.
I know that road all too well from the past.

 

[Ty_Webb]

I frankly don’t remember what the penalty for signing a wrong scorecard is but off the top of my head I think it’s a DQ isn’t it?

I think it's actually over before then. Playing a wrong ball is a 2-stroke penalty and you have to correct your mistake. If you tee off on the next hole without correcting your mistake, you are disqualified. No ifs, no buts, no penalty strokes, just DQ. Since there is no "next hole" when you're playing the last, I think the rules say something about equity and if you walk off the green without correcting your mistake, you're disqualified. So by the time they signed their cards, their gooses were cooked.

 

[staticline]

Unless there was a boom mic pointed at the two players and the LPGA gets a translator, no one will ever know what transpired between them.

Maybe the tour will play good cop/bad cop on them, get each one in a different room:
We found a mic and know what you said, we just want to hear your side of the story. You know the other lady is next door, selling you up the river. Don't believe me? Come take a look. Look through that window. She's singing like a jaybird....cuz she doesn't want to take the rap for this. Now, do you want to tell your side or should we just go with what she says, cuz she don't look like someone who want to go to Rikers. But, she'd do okay there. She's not pretty like you. They'd like you in prison. So, what's it gonna be.



We watch a lot of Law & Order at the casa.

 

[Smallville]

. . . That said, if they did in fact play the wrong ball, they have also then gone on and signed scorecards that do not accurately reflect their scores for that round as their penalties are not properly accounted for in those scorecards. I frankly don’t remember what the penalty for signing a wrong scorecard is but off the top of my head I think it’s a DQ isn’t it?

I think Fourputt and I had a discussion on this very thing. If a player signs a scorecard for a higher score than they actually got, then the score stands. But if they sign for a lower score, then the player is disqualified.

Roberto De Vicenzo signed for a higher score than he got at The Masters and it cost him a playoff.
http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/masters08/columns/story?columnist=sobel_jason&id=3324061

 

[JPsuff]

I think Fourputt and I had a discussion on this very thing. If a player signs a scorecard for a higher score than they actually got, then the score stands. But if they sign for a lower score, then the player is disqualified.

Roberto De Vicenzo signed for a higher score than he got at The Masters and it cost him a playoff.
http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/masters08/columns/story?columnist=sobel_jason&id=3324061

That's correct.

Odd, but correct. I believe that this is the rule that addresses it:

Rule 6-6
d. Wrong Score for Hole

The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded for each hole on his score card. If he returns a score for any hole lower than actually taken, he is disqualified. If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score as returned stands.


-JP