Cast vs Forged - The Master Debate

[RxGus]

But there is variation in wedges. Quite a bit actually. Not all the time, but all kinds of metals are used.

And with irons, wouldnt that mean that yes you can tell softer metal irons from harder metal irons, more than cast vs forged? I guess to me that really is not debatable.

I agree with you 100% on both points. I think it all comes down to speaking in generalities and how we understand them.

In general- there is less variation in wedge metals due to consumer preference for soft wedges. There are of course wedges that fall in both ends of the spectrum but again, we are talking in generalities.

In general- forged clubs are made from softer materials than cast because they are easier to forge. Therefore, if we speak in generalities (which we are) there would be a tendency for a forged club to be "softer" than a cast club because (in general) they use softer metals. There will of course be castings with softer metals and forgings with harder metals but overall those tend to be outliers.

The constant theme here is that it is the METAL and not the PROCESS that makes a club soft.... but that being said, because of the PROCESS, forged clubs are more likely to be made with soft metals and therefore more likely to play "softer", but there are always exceptions

 

[Mustng5]

feel is very subjective that's for sure. but when touring professionals can't tell the difference in feel between forged and cast irons, and you can, i'm somewhat skeptical.

Being skeptical is fine, but just like with the ball testing again, some people swore that it was a tour level ball and the reality is that it wasnt, just because a pro cant tell doesnt mean that i cant, alot of great football coaches never played the game of football, so your logic is flawed in my opinion....

 

[RxGus]

I would like to point out that I am on record (in many places) as saying that I do not believe we can feel "soft" or "hard" a ball is during a full swing. We feel the way vibrations travel up the club but the ball simply isn't in contact with the face long enough to tell ball compression. What we distinguish as hard and soft is completely based on auditory feedback.

By this same token, I believe it would be VERY hard to tell the difference between forged and unforged clubs for that very reason. There simply isnt enough ball contact during a swing to have a large difference in feel. Anything that does exist is likely more the result of vibration dampening/control than it is how hard or soft a metal is.

Just wanted to be clear about my stance, since I am devil's advocating the "softer feel" argument.

 

[JB]

Being skeptical is fine, but just like with the ball testing again, some people swore that it was a tour level ball and the reality is that it wasnt, just because a pro cant tell doesnt mean that i cant, alot of great football coaches never played the game of football, so your logic is flawed in my opinion....

Very different thing. But I appreciate you making my debate for me.

1. The ball was softer at the core
2. The ball had a harder cover
3. Because of those things, it was the materials that made up the performance and feel and not the process of which the ball was made.

Does that sound a lot like cast vs forged or what?

 

[Mustng5]

Very different thing. But I appreciate you making my debate for me.

1. The ball was softer at the core
2. The ball had a harder cover
3. Because of those things, it was the materials that made up the performance and feel and not the process of which the ball was made.

Does that sound a lot like cast vs forged or what?

I will have to table this discussion until I get off of work and its hard to keep typing on my Evo, my point was that people feel different things JB, how many testers swore that it was a tour ball? Your opinions are fine, I bet you could find someone else that has built or manufactured clubs for a number of years and they would totally contradict everything you copied and pasted from that guy. It's just what I feel, that simple.

 

[TC]

I would like to point out that I am on record (in many places) as saying that I do not believe we can feel "soft" or "hard" a ball is during a full swing. We feel the way vibrations travel up the club but the ball simply isn't in contact with the face long enough to tell ball compression. What we distinguish as hard and soft is completely based on auditory feedback. By this same token, I believe it would be VERY hard to tell the difference between forged and unforged clubs for that very reason. There simply isnt enough ball contact during a swing to have a large difference in feel. Anything that does exist is likely more the result of vibration dampening/control than it is how hard or soft a metal is.

Just wanted to be clear about my stance, since I am devil's advocating the "softer feel" argument.

yup! agree completely Gus, and have said that many, many, many times.

i'm glad that some can differentiate between cast and forged irons, and i'm sure it has nothing to do with the social credit aspects of the game of golf.

 

[JB]

I will have to table this discussion until I get off of work and its hard to keep typing on my Evo, my point was that people feel different things JB, how many testers swore that it was a tour ball? Your opinions are fine, I bet you could find someone else that has built or manufactured clubs for a number of years and they would totally contradict everything you copied and pasted from that guy. It's just what I feel, that simple.

Im not sure that is the case. But I would love to find one of course. That will speak in actual terms like listed here and not marketing. But I am struggling, because they all seem to be giving us the same info. And no I did not cut and paste anything, we called and spoke to someone at a top OEM.


After going back and reading this entire thread. It is even more important to me that we do a flat out blind testing of some sort at the THP Outing. The forum members are about ripping through marketing and what better way than this.

 

[Mustng5]

yup! agree completely Gus, and have said that many, many, many times.

i'm glad that some can differentiate between cast and forged irons, and i'm sure it has nothing to do with the social credit aspects of the game of golf.

Wow, sarcasm, great!

 

[TC]

Wow, sarcasm, great!

not being sarcastic at all. it's the same thing from the same guys all the time. ironically, you all have forged sticks in your bag. no need to justify them to me, just don't tell me that they "feel" better, b/c it's not the case. well, except for you.

 

[SW]

TC you know where I fall on this debate, but I think the last 4 words in your post sums it up. Golf is so subjective and likewise is feel, so if it feels better to them then let them enjoy the cake...

If the OEM's agreed to a blind test and it turns out that no one could really tell a difference wouldn't that shoot the clubmakers in the foot? For instance someone sees that 50 people pretty much couldn't tell the difference between cast v forged what would be the impetus to spend the extra money on forgings...other than socially of course?

not being sarcastic at all. it's the same thing from the same guys all the time. ironically, you all have forged sticks in your bag. no need to justify them to me, just don't tell me that they "feel" better, b/c it's not the case. well, except for you.

 

[JB]

Wow, sarcasm, great!

Mustng,
I am really trying to have a civilized conversation here. No sarcasm out of me. Im just trying to figure out for my own awareness if people believe that they are feeling a difference in cast vs forged or in the metal that is used out of both? It seems that many believe they feel a difference based on the process and I am trying to educate myself on why they believe this.

 

[RxGus]

TC you know where I fall on this debate, but I think the last 4 words in your post sums it up. Golf is so subjective and likewise is feel, so if it feels better to them then let them enjoy the cake...

If the OEM's agreed to a blind test and it turns out that no one could really tell a difference wouldn't that shoot the clubmakers in the foot? For instance someone sees that 50 people pretty much couldn't tell the difference between cast v forged what would be the impetus to spend the extra money on forgings...other than socially of course?

That is why any such test would have to be done by a 3rd party and not by an OEM. There is NO value in the OEMs to test this, in particular with how popular the forged irons are in Asia. I look back at the forged Burner Irons that OEMKevin found- BEAUTIFUL!

 

[JB]

That is why any such test would have to be done by a 3rd party and not by an OEM. There is NO value in the OEMs to test this, in particular with how popular the forged irons are in Asia. I look back at the forged Burner Irons that OEMKevin found- BEAUTIFUL!

It depends really. Not ALL OEMs make forged clubs, but could have access to having them made....Hmmmm!

 

[TC]

That is why any such test would have to be done by a 3rd party and not by an OEM. There is NO value in the OEMs to test this, in particular with how popular the forged irons are in Asia. I look back at the forged Burner Irons that OEMKevin found- BEAUTIFUL!

and if this testing does occur it will with wedges, thus proving nothing to the forged iron army out there. it is what it is. i really don't care. i like to argue the facts, and the facts have been laid out in front of us by an individual that was involved in club making.

 

[Mustng5]

Im not sure that is the case. But I would love to find one of course. That will speak in actual terms like listed here and not marketing. But I am struggling, because they all seem to be giving us the same info. And no I did not cut and paste anything, we called and spoke to someone at a top OEM.


After going back and reading this entire thread. It is even more important to me that we do a flat out blind testing of some sort at the THP Outing. The forum members are about ripping through marketing and what better way than this.

Wow maybe its just me, am I the only person who sees the hypocrisy? Top OEM in advertisement that the club is soft and forged and I'm an idiot for believing it, same OEM does interview with you and its ok for you to believe wat he is saying? His goal at the end of the day is to find ways to sell more product, that simple. As proven by this website golfers are very loyal people, many people have said they would buy from certain companies just because of how that company treats the THP family, Taylormade's goal with the blind ball testing was to sell more of that ball, did they want honest feedback? Yes, but the goal was to sell more of that ball, it was play this ball, did you like it? Well look its already on the market you can buy it, it wasn't that they made a prototype batch sent them to us then came up with the ball after our feedback like they do with pros.

 

[CharlieMoy]

what would be the impetus to spend the extra money on forgings...other than socially of course?

It's not spending extra money on forged clubs of they're a completely different model.


I think people are looping the word "forged" with the word blade way too much. And by the way, the difference in feel comes alot from the weighting and the sole of the club. For example, A small sole releases from the ground quicker, thus giving less ground resistance. That 'crisp' contact is not only a well struck golf ball but less ground resistance too. People don't feel different things, they just interpret those things differently. And likes are all different obviously Some are just not educated enough to know what certain feelings mean. (not directed at anyone particular)

 

[TC]

Wow maybe its just me, am I the only person who sees the hypocrisy? Top OEM in advertisement that the club is soft and forged and I'm an idiot for believing it, same OEM does interview with you and its ok for you to believe wat he is saying? His goal at the end of the day is to find ways to sell more product, that simple. As proven by this website golfers are very loyal people, many people have said they would buy from certain companies just because of how that company treats the THP family, Taylormade's goal with the blind ball testing was to sell more of that ball, did they want honest feedback? Yes, but the goal was to sell more of that ball, it was play this ball, did you like it? Well look its already on the market you can buy it, it wasn't that they made a prototype batch sent them to us then came up with the ball after our feedback like they do with pros.

when has anyone been told to support a company that "treats the THP family"?

and the point of the ball testing was to see if a golfer found a ball that worked for their game.

 

[JB]

Wow maybe its just me, am I the only person who sees the hypocrisy? Top OEM in advertisement that the club is soft and forged and I'm an idiot for believing it, same OEM does interview with you and its ok for you to believe wat he is saying? His goal at the end of the day is to find ways to sell more product, that simple. As proven by this website golfers are very loyal people, many people have said they would buy from certain companies just because of how that company treats the THP family, Taylormade's goal with the blind ball testing was to sell more of that ball, did they want honest feedback? Yes, but the goal was to sell more of that ball, it was play this ball, did you like it? Well look its already on the market you can buy it, it wasn't that they made a prototype batch sent them to us then came up with the ball after our feedback like they do with pros.

The goal is to get through the advertising and marketing here at THP. Being loyal to those that support what some consider a family is nothing new.

But the goal with the ball study was not what you may think from our point of view. Maybe from theirs, but we cannot control that. From ours it was just like it is here, to rip through marketing. We have been told by marketing for years "to play this ball or that ball" or "to play the best ball". Well lets test one out with no marketing and see what people find. TM did not dictate that test....I DID! It was MY IDEA, not theirs to do this.

Again, I am unsure why the ball keeps getting brought up. It proved to many that marketing plays a HUGE role in what we buy whether we believe it or not. But again, how that pertains to this, I am completely unaware. Also not sure why the hostility, I am trying to have a civil conversation here.

 

[JB]

It's not spending extra money on forged clubs of they're a completely different model.


I think people are looping the word "forged" with the word blade way too much. And by the way, the difference in feel comes alot from the weighting and the sole of the club. For example, A small sole releases from the ground quicker, thus giving less ground resistance. That 'crisp' contact is not only a well struck golf ball but less ground resistance too. People don't feel different things, they just interpret those things differently. And likes are all different obviously Some are just not educated enough to know what certain feelings mean. (not directed at anyone particular)

That is another great point. The sole in fact does play a HUGE role in what we feel because of ground and ball contact.

 

[AveB4Life]

Well first of all, I think this is a great debate to have, and hopefully someone who is purchasing irons and debating between cast and forged will come across this. I think a good population of the golfing world know that there is in fact a difference. I know back in 2004 when I bought irons, I took the time to learn about the club making process and as a 25 handicap at the time I told my salesperson that I wanted the easiest possible club to hit it straight. He gave me the 2004 Callaway Big Bertha cast irons. When I got my handicap down to 14 using those clubs (it took 4.5 years by the way), my take on cast clubs are that there really isn't a difference when you hit both perfectly. EXCEPT that with a cast club, you will have little feeling about it (you'll know you hit it flush), but you wont feel it in your hands, and with a forged club (which I moved to over the past 1.5 years - Nike Pro Combo), if you hit it perfectly, it will go perfectly, and you will know exactly when you've hit it on the money. I know that probably sounds confusing, but its a feel thing with the forged, like you will have felt you just controlled that, shaped it, whatever. With my cast clubs, I could hit draw when I wanted to, but never felt any different when hitting straight or draw.

Also the sound is different. with the forged I felt more of a click, vs. the cast which doesn't really have a sound. Also, I moved from a CG12 56 wedge to a forged Scratch wedge and I definitely felt more of the strike with the forged. I now play a cast vokey in 54, and a forged Nike Vr in 58, and the combo seems to be working out with no difference.

In closing, I would say that no matter cast or forged, use the club that hits it straight first. I moved to forged, because I could hit it straight and wanted more feel of the club. It's nice to hit it straight, but its also nice to hit it straight and have that good feeling that you did that. With my cast irons, I loved when I hit a perfect shot, but I never got that response.

 

[ddec]

I think people are looping the word "forged" with the word blade way too much. And by the way, the difference in feel comes alot from the weighting and the sole of the club. For example, A small sole releases from the ground quicker, thus giving less ground resistance. That 'crisp' contact is not only a well struck golf ball but less ground resistance too. People don't feel different things, they just interpret those things differently. And likes are all different obviously Some are just not educated enough to know what certain feelings mean. (not directed at anyone particular)

Agreed. When I sent my Dad the article last night and told him that I was chosen as a tester for the new Taylormade Forged irons, his first response was, "Forged irons are harder to hit because they have a smaller sweet spot."

 

[CharlieMoy]

Agreed. When I sent my Dad the article last night and told him that I was chosen as a tester for the new Taylormade Forged irons, his first response was, "Forged irons are harder to hit because they have a smaller sweet spot."

Don't get me on the myth of the fricken sweet spot. That's a whole 'nother monkey in itself.

 

[Hawk]

I don't know that it's always "social credit". I think that sometimes people like to buy what think are nice things and I don't see anything wrong with that. Some of us like fancy putters when there are things like the Cleveland Classics that perform well for less cost. Nothing wrong with it imo. If the forged fans are making fun of cast, then it is a problem, but I think the same thing if it goes the other way. To each his own?

 

[TC]

The goal is to get through the advertising and marketing here at THP. Being loyal to those that support what some consider a family is nothing new.

But the goal with the ball study was not what you may think from our point of view. Maybe from theirs, but we cannot control that. From ours it was just like it is here, to rip through marketing. We have been told by marketing for years "to play this ball or that ball" or "to play the best ball". Well lets test one out with no marketing and see what people find. TM did not dictate that test....I DID! It was MY IDEA, not theirs to do this.

Again, I am unsure why the ball keeps getting brought up. It proved to many that marketing plays a HUGE role in what we buy whether we believe it or not. But again, how that pertains to this, I am completely unaware. Also not sure why the hostility, I am trying to have a civil conversation here.

to be fair, i think mustng feels as though i'm attacking him. i am not. i'm just stating my opinions on forged vs. cast and how i believe that forged iron owners equate "buttery soft" and "ooo la la la" sentiments to them b/c they own them, that's all.

i don't think he's being hostile, just stating his opinions as well. the whole bringing up the ball thing is weird but whatever.

fwiw,

i've only ever owned forged irons up until about 2 years ago, but mostly bought them b/c i thought they looked cooler. i was a traditionalist, hated badges, but i've decided to let hard data on launch monitors and on course results dictate what's in my bag.

 

[ddec]

Don't get me on the myth of the fricken sweet spot. That's a whole 'nother monkey in itself.

haha i know, I tried to set him straight. I'll just have to ket him take a few swings with them.