tnc200
The Snowman
A longer shaft thats easier to hit and more forgiving? I'm all in with this one. Besides you are trying to twist what I said.
Loft Marketing Hype??
- Admin
- #152
But the longer shaft of the PW with the stronger loft is usually still shorter than that of the shaft that is 2 lower than it. Like 5 iron to 7 iron as an example. Again, just generalizing here.
- Staff
- #153
For many, the 2.0's are very easy to hit and they are a perfect example of what I am talking about. I'm not trying to twist what you said. I'm just saying that it is not all related to the loft of the club.
Flooder
Active member
This thread is making my head hurt 
Loft is ONE factor in how far a club goes. As many of you read, last week I went to Golftec and hit the Burner 2.0 6 iron 34 yards further than the X22 6 iron on average. Is the Burner 6 iron a stronger loft? Yes it's equal to the X22 5 iron. But, the Burner 6 iron was 20 yards longer than the Callaway 5 even though they had IDENTICAL LOFTS. Why? I'll answer that below, but here are the specs...
Loft Lie Length Swingweight
Callaway X22 6 iron 30º 62.0º 37.25 D2
Burner 2.0 6 iron 27* 62.5* 37.625 D3.5
Callaway X22 5 iron 27º 61.5º 37.75 D2
With the X22 my launch angle was an atrocious 9* average on 5 swings. With the stronger lofted 2.0 6 iron my launch angle WENT UP to 15*+ (still not optimal, but much improved).
Now, did the ball go farther partly because the club had less loft? Yes, of course. But the majority of the gain was OBVIOUSLY because the ball got up in the air properly and therefore had a fighting chance to go an appropriate distance.
Another example - TC tells me he couldn't hit his X22 3 iron but CRUSHES his 2.0 3 iron. The Burner 3 iron is 2* stronger and the shaft is 3/4 of an inch longer. By old-school logic it should therefore be harder to hit, bordering on impossible (it's practically a 2 iron) yet that's not the case.
Frankly, I'm not sure how anyone can read the above and say that all the Mfrs. are doing is decreasing loft. It's blatantly obvious that's not all they're doing. TM has somehow built a 6 iron that goes farther than my X22 4 iron while having a higher ball flight which leads to a softer landing allowing for more control. That is a total REVOLUTION IN CLUB DESIGN not just stronger lofts.
Loft is ONE factor in how far a club goes. As many of you read, last week I went to Golftec and hit the Burner 2.0 6 iron 34 yards further than the X22 6 iron on average. Is the Burner 6 iron a stronger loft? Yes it's equal to the X22 5 iron. But, the Burner 6 iron was 20 yards longer than the Callaway 5 even though they had IDENTICAL LOFTS. Why? I'll answer that below, but here are the specs...
Loft Lie Length Swingweight
Callaway X22 6 iron 30º 62.0º 37.25 D2
Burner 2.0 6 iron 27* 62.5* 37.625 D3.5
Callaway X22 5 iron 27º 61.5º 37.75 D2
With the X22 my launch angle was an atrocious 9* average on 5 swings. With the stronger lofted 2.0 6 iron my launch angle WENT UP to 15*+ (still not optimal, but much improved).
Now, did the ball go farther partly because the club had less loft? Yes, of course. But the majority of the gain was OBVIOUSLY because the ball got up in the air properly and therefore had a fighting chance to go an appropriate distance.
Another example - TC tells me he couldn't hit his X22 3 iron but CRUSHES his 2.0 3 iron. The Burner 3 iron is 2* stronger and the shaft is 3/4 of an inch longer. By old-school logic it should therefore be harder to hit, bordering on impossible (it's practically a 2 iron) yet that's not the case.
Frankly, I'm not sure how anyone can read the above and say that all the Mfrs. are doing is decreasing loft. It's blatantly obvious that's not all they're doing. TM has somehow built a 6 iron that goes farther than my X22 4 iron while having a higher ball flight which leads to a softer landing allowing for more control. That is a total REVOLUTION IN CLUB DESIGN not just stronger lofts.
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Great post. The loft isn't the only thing that has attributed to distance increases, certainly. Modern clubs are master pieces of engineering
This thread is making my head hurt
Loft is ONE factor in how far a club goes. As many of you read, last week I went to Golftec and hit the Burner 2.0 6 iron 34 yards further than the X22 6 iron on average. Is the Burner 6 iron a stronger loft? Yes it's equal to the X22 5 iron. But, the Burner 6 iron was 20 yards longer than the Callaway 5 even though they had IDENTICAL LOFTS. Why? I'll answer that below, but here are the specs...
Loft Lie Length Swingweight
Callaway X22 6 iron 30º 62.0º 37.25 D2
Burner 2.0 6 iron 27* 62.5* 37.625 D3.5
Callaway X22 5 iron 27º 61.5º 37.75 D2
With the X22 my launch angle was an atrocious 9* average on 5 swings. With the stronger lofted 2.0 6 iron my launch angle WENT UP to 15*+ (still not optimal, but much improved).
Now, did the ball go farther partly because the club had less loft? Yes, of course. But the majority of the gain was OBVIOUSLY because the ball got up in the air properly and therefore had a fighting chance to go an appropriate distance.
Another example - TC tells me he couldn't hit his X22 3 iron but CRUSHES his 2.0 3 iron. The Burner 3 iron is 2* stronger and the shaft is 3/4 of an inch longer. By old-school logic it should therefore be harder to hit, bordering on impossible (it's practically a 2 iron) yet that's not the case.
Frankly, I'm not sure how anyone can read the above and say that all the Mfrs. are doing is decreasing loft. It's blatantly obvious that's not all they're doing. TM has somehow built a 6 iron that goes farther than my X22 4 iron while having a higher ball flight which leads to a softer landing allowing for more control. That is a total REVOLUTION IN CLUB DESIGN not just stronger lofts.
tnc200
The Snowman
Ok so it sounds like you found a club design, head shaft and length that works for you. I'd be stoked. Now wouldn't it be great if that set went from a 20* or whatever they designed all the way to an honest pw say 50 +or-. My argument is that the companies have opened the gap and now consumers have to buy more clubs to fill it. Right where I am still taking a full shot swing, and goin at the flag. My iron set should be full shot swings all through the set. I have wedges and they should be the clubs that I use for full, 3/4, 1/2, etc... swings. Like I said before you never heard of a gap wedge before 1985. No gap no gap wedge. Why did they open the gap?
This thread is making my head hurt
Loft is ONE factor in how far a club goes. As many of you read, last week I went to Golftec and hit the Burner 2.0 6 iron 34 yards further than the X22 6 iron on average. Is the Burner 6 iron a stronger loft? Yes it's equal to the X22 5 iron. But, the Burner 6 iron was 20 yards longer than the Callaway 5 even though they had IDENTICAL LOFTS. Why? I'll answer that below, but here are the specs...
Loft Lie Length Swingweight
Callaway X22 6 iron 30º 62.0º 37.25 D2
Burner 2.0 6 iron 27* 62.5* 37.625 D3.5
Callaway X22 5 iron 27º 61.5º 37.75 D2
With the X22 my launch angle was an atrocious 9* average on 5 swings. With the stronger lofted 2.0 6 iron my launch angle WENT UP to 15*+ (still not optimal, but much improved).
Now, did the ball go farther partly because the club had less loft? Yes, of course. But the majority of the gain was OBVIOUSLY because the ball got up in the air properly and therefore had a fighting chance to go an appropriate distance.
Another example - TC tells me he couldn't hit his X22 3 iron but CRUSHES his 2.0 3 iron. The Burner 3 iron is 2* stronger and the shaft is 3/4 of an inch longer. By old-school logic it should therefore be harder to hit, bordering on impossible (it's practically a 2 iron) yet that's not the case.
Frankly, I'm not sure how anyone can read the above and say that all the Mfrs. are doing is decreasing loft. It's blatantly obvious that's not all they're doing. TM has somehow built a 6 iron that goes farther than my X22 4 iron while having a higher ball flight which leads to a softer landing allowing for more control. That is a total REVOLUTION IN CLUB DESIGN not just stronger lofts.
Flooder
Active member
Well, I already play a 50* so it may not be too big a deal for me, but I hear you. On the flip side though, if I can now hit a 3 iron 230 yds. (speculation at this point
) I no longer need the 3 hybrid (210) or the 5 wood (225) opening up a spot for the wedge or allowing me to get a 4 wood that goes 240-245 to close the gap to my 260ish driver. In the end this may be more important to many (it will be to me). I can have my 50* bent to 48* if necessary or I can take a 3/4 swing with the PW, but before now, I could not do anything if I had a 2nd shot outside 220 yards. It was a mandatory layup. I also had to hit a 4 iron I couldn't hit or a 3 hybrid off many par 3 tees where I will soon be hitting 6 iron or 5 iron. From 150 I was playing a full 7 iron, now it will be a smooth 8 I'm guessing. Those things should change the whole game for me and should more than makeup for the gap 'problem'.
tnc200
The Snowman
Omg if I could hit my 3i well enough to drop the hybrid and 5w that'd be like golf nirvana.
Well, I already play a 50* so it may not be too big a deal for me, but I hear you. On the flip side though, if I can now hit a 3 iron 230 yds. (speculation at this point
In the end this may be more important to many (it will be to me). I can have my 50* bent to 48* if necessary or I can take a 3/4 swing with the PW, but before now, I could not do anything if I had a 2nd shot outside 220 yards. It was a mandatory layup. I also had to hit a 4 iron I couldn't hit or a 3 hybrid off many par 3 tees where I will soon be hitting 6 iron or 5 iron. From 150 I was playing a full 7 iron, now it will be a smooth 8 I'm guessing. Those things should change the whole game for me and should more than makeup for the gap 'problem'.
johnnymo
New member
Flooder, I had been kind of hoping you would pop in here with some numbers because of your recent fitting. I find the swing weight of the Burners to be very interesting as unless I am mistaken, going completely off memory here, D3.5 is higher than what we consider the norm.
As my Grandpa likes to say, the proof is in the pudding and the launch angle differences speak volumes. Thanks for bringing some quantitative data to the table.
john
As my Grandpa likes to say, the proof is in the pudding and the launch angle differences speak volumes. Thanks for bringing some quantitative data to the table.
john
This thread is making my head hurt
Loft is ONE factor in how far a club goes. As many of you read, last week I went to Golftec and hit the Burner 2.0 6 iron 34 yards further than the X22 6 iron on average. Is the Burner 6 iron a stronger loft? Yes it's equal to the X22 5 iron. But, the Burner 6 iron was 20 yards longer than the Callaway 5 even though they had IDENTICAL LOFTS. Why? I'll answer that below, but here are the specs...
Loft Lie Length Swingweight
Callaway X22 6 iron 30º 62.0º 37.25 D2
Burner 2.0 6 iron 27* 62.5* 37.625 D3.5
Callaway X22 5 iron 27º 61.5º 37.75 D2
With the X22 my launch angle was an atrocious 9* average on 5 swings. With the stronger lofted 2.0 6 iron my launch angle WENT UP to 15*+ (still not optimal, but much improved).
Now, did the ball go farther partly because the club had less loft? Yes, of course. But the majority of the gain was OBVIOUSLY because the ball got up in the air properly and therefore had a fighting chance to go an appropriate distance.
Another example - TC tells me he couldn't hit his X22 3 iron but CRUSHES his 2.0 3 iron. The Burner 3 iron is 2* stronger and the shaft is 3/4 of an inch longer. By old-school logic it should therefore be harder to hit, bordering on impossible (it's practically a 2 iron) yet that's not the case.
Frankly, I'm not sure how anyone can read the above and say that all the Mfrs. are doing is decreasing loft. It's blatantly obvious that's not all they're doing. TM has somehow built a 6 iron that goes farther than my X22 4 iron while having a higher ball flight which leads to a softer landing allowing for more control. That is a total REVOLUTION IN CLUB DESIGN not just stronger lofts.
My results are quite a bit different then most so it's a bit of an outlier. At the range today I...ah, never mind...
Dr. Teeth
Well-known member
No, I don't care if they offer me an "honest PW", thats what I have specific wedges for. I find that I personally like my Vokeys, or Cleveland, or whatever wedge to serve that spot. So to me I am very happy that the 2.0 PW is 45*, that is so perfect I couldn't have planned it better myself.
CharlieMoy
Well-known member
Along with loft, sw, and length, different clubs react differently to different angles of attack. Bounce angles, offset amount, and leading edge shape all can change the characteristics of the ball flight. Loft is just one minute part of the club aspect that most understand and can directly comment on.
THPing on the fly. Sorry for lack of forum etiquette.
THPing on the fly. Sorry for lack of forum etiquette.
- Admin
- #164
What the heck is an honest PW? My wedge has never lied to me. What makes a 50* an honest wedge? Because it was the number used years ago? They also did not have multiple wedges that amateurs played years ago. Before 1985 you also did not hear about 460 cc drivers, playable loft, hybrids, etc... I mean larger drivers have meant more forgiveness and distance for many. Does this mean we should not have these and we should play the same size as they did in 1985? Or how about shaft length. Average driver shaft OTR 25 years about was 2.5 inches shorter than today. Is this just marketing?
According to the shaft companies...No. Yet it is a tool to increase distance.
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tnc200
The Snowman
An honest pitching wedge? Just like it sounds, a wedge used for a pitch swing. At least it used to be. Nowadays most of us will use our gaps and sands because we need the loft to be effective with it. Loft the pw carried at one time. <45*=club >45*=wedge. Once again I'll ask "Why did they open the gap?" No one seems to have the answer to that one though. As far as the 460s and hybrids yeah you can go ahead get rid of those JB, I'll be keeping mine though, thanks.
- Admin
- #166
I guess we have played a different game for a while. Because I have always used my PW for many swings, going back 25 years and today. Never knew I was supposed to use it only for a pitch swing. And what is a pitch swing? Is that like chipping? I thought pre-1985 most players used a 8 iron for that depending on lie? I know most tour pros did it seems.
So some things should change based on helping achieve distance, like the 460cc driver, longer driver shafts, etc...but not your loft of your PW. Whatever works I guess.
I use different clubs for a lot of different situations/lies. I've used 8-irons from 70 yards (extremely tight lie, low punch, lot of wind), and 5-woods from 90 yards (under low hanging branches). I'll even use a driver off the fairway is the situation calls for it.
tnc200
The Snowman
Naw JB it's not like a chip. I'm honestly kinda surprised you have never heard of a pitch type swing. Look it up, it might help. I never said it was only for a pitch, nice try though. I have implied that I feel it ought to be transition club, it is the last in the set after all. Where if I no longer need the distance and am able to use a fullswing or less. Pretty much where the gap is today.
Why in the world would I want more distance on my pw. Ive already got a 25 yard gap there. I want even spacing on a matched set. I'll buy a couple wedges but my full shot swing clubs I want the same heads shafts etc... Your reasoning would have the sets going from say 20*-3i to a 28*-pw, now that would be a helluva wedge.
- Admin
- #171
Nice try? Huh? I dont know what that means.
A PW might have been a transitional club 30 years ago, it is not now, at least for most golfers. I still use mine as a versatile club. As does many other players. It is part of a set that gives one equal distance from the rest of their irons. Which it still does. Why would you want more distance out of your PW? Many people playing longer courses want more distance out of every club. Shorter irons are easier for most amateurs to hit and while you might be able to hit a 5 iron the same as you can an 8 iron, most high index players cannot. Simple confidence factors alone give people an edge.
Im still confused why stronger lofting means you cannot have an even spaced matched set?
And if you think my reasoning would have sets going from 3i at 20* to a 28* PW, you have clearly missed my point.
And again I will ask, if more distance is okay by the means of longer shafts, larger clubs, and other reasons, why is loft not allowed?
- Staff
- #172
Here's a very quick list:
Adams Pro Black - 47° PW
Bridgestone J38 CB - 47° PW
Mizuno (Multiple sets) - 47° to 48° PW
Nike VR (Multiple) - 47° PW
Ping S56 - 47° PW
Titleist (multiple) - 47° PW
Wilson Staff (Two sets) - 47° PW
Adams Pro Black - 47° PW
Bridgestone J38 CB - 47° PW
Mizuno (Multiple sets) - 47° to 48° PW
Nike VR (Multiple) - 47° PW
Ping S56 - 47° PW
Titleist (multiple) - 47° PW
Wilson Staff (Two sets) - 47° PW
johnnymo
New member
Dang it Hawk! You beat me to it.
I will say that this thread has changed my opinion in some ways and I am looking at it under a different light. I am really looking forward to the discussion on playable loft as being able to read something on the subject is better than me trying to figure it out on my own as it will be without a doubt be the exact opposite of what I think it is. Silly golf with all of it's contradictions.
- Admin
- #174
It should be done in the next few days. I think it will be a great topic and one that many will enjoy.
tnc200
The Snowman
Well I guess my ideal is that at the front end the 3i. Id prefer a club with the strongest loft and longest shaft manageable. My 3i is exactly that, it takes practice if I'm gonna carry it. At the back I dont need the distance. I want a club that blends into my wedge set. I have a couple wedges, my gw gives me a 75 yard beauty I can rely on, 50* same clubline. The pw is 44* 100-110. The largest gap in my set is between the pw and gw. This is where I need less gap. I guess I don't feel the need to make all the irons in a set stronger. Sure the front end but at the back if it's opening distance gaps that doesn't help me. I want loft and accuracy. Ive heard guys say buy another wedge but we only get to carry 14 clubs right. Secondly I'd be buying a wedge to use in a full shot swing. Thats what my iron set is for. Speaking of Irons its time to go to the range. Double balls 7-9 see you soon.