Metal spikes and a PGA tiff or two

[All4's]

Just saw the twitter spat between Ian Poulter and Rory McIllroy regarding the damage being done to the greens by those wearing metal spikes. The same argument is what caused Phil and Vijay to nearly come to blows at Augusta a few years ago and has sprang up not so publicly a few times a year. The basic argument in both cases is that A) there is rarely if ever a need to wear metal spikes in this day and age of good soft spikes and traction systems on shoes, B) that it is very selfish to wear them at the expense of the damage they do to the greens and your competitors. It is analogous to not raking a bunker. You are causing damage to the course and not repairing it fully. Tamping down 2-3 spike marks when you leave 3 dozen doesn't count (looking at you Christina Kim since you chimed in).

So 2 questions for the THP community:

Does anyone on THP still wear metal spikes?

Whose side do you come down on between the 10-12 guys who still wear them on tour and those who don't?

My answers:

No, I have not had metal spikes since the late 90's. I play in and watch a fair amount of amateur tournaments too and have never seen a pair in over a decade. Only at PGA events have I ever seen them and then they are rare.

In regards to the argument I am 90% with Poulter. I can't see any reason why someone would still be wearing metal spikes today and I do think it is a selfish act. The HD cameras clearly showed the effect of spikemarks on the greens during Gary Woodland's putt. But 10% of me says they are still legal and therefore can be used and given that it is an individual sport, you do everything you can to win. I would prefer to see the tour just change the rules to make metal spikes illegal and move on, but they don't exactly move quickly so I doubt it will ever happen.

 

[JB]

I had a long talk with a highly regarded course designer about this just 2 days ago. He said that the argument against metal spikes is flawed, because most of the "softer" spikes can cause just as much or more damage. The reasoning he gave is because they give and actually hit more parts of the grass than that of metal spikes. Softer spikes bend and there are more actual spikes that without proper walking (i know it sounds weird) will cause 3-5 times more damage than metal spikes with the single spike on each.

I dont use metal spikes, but talking to this gentleman really opened my eyes.

 

[CharlieMoy]

I dont know any golf courses who allow metal spikes. They definitely do a lot of damage. I would like them to move towards no metal spikes, but if I remember correctly a lot of the elite players use them.

 

[RxGus]

Hopefully the point becomes moot as time progresses, since the younger players are growing up and are used to the soft spikes. It will continue to be the pros that learned to golf before the advent of the soft spike that cling to an antiquated (my opinion) piece of equipment. At least on the PGA level, the problem will be mostly gone in the next 10 years.

In a lot of ways, this is like the concussion helmets issue in the NFL. The current players want nothing to do with wearing the bigger/heavier helmets as they feel it changes the game and they arent used to them. If we instituted the helmets in PeeWee, HS, and College football eventually the NFL players would just be "used" to wearing the helmets and wont think twice about them... it is all they know.

 

[c_ault]

I had a long talk with a highly regarded course designer about this just 2 days ago. He said that the argument against metal spikes is flawed, because most of the "softer" spikes can cause just as much or more damage. The reasoning he gave is because they give and actually hit more parts of the grass than that of metal spikes. Softer spikes bend and there are more actual spikes that without proper walking (i know it sounds weird) will cause 3-5 times more damage than metal spikes with the single spike on each.

I dont use metal spikes, but talking to this gentleman really opened my eyes.

Just had this conversation on the course Weds. Some people just don't know how to walk, I'd say that is with both metal and soft. I'd think if you walk properly with metal spikes you probably would be helping out the grass some.

I don't wear metal spikes but probably would if I could find a great pair.

 

[RxGus]

I had a long talk with a highly regarded course designer about this just 2 days ago. He said that the argument against metal spikes is flawed, because most of the "softer" spikes can cause just as much or more damage. The reasoning he gave is because they give and actually hit more parts of the grass than that of metal spikes. Softer spikes bend and there are more actual spikes that without proper walking (i know it sounds weird) will cause 3-5 times more damage than metal spikes with the single spike on each.

I dont use metal spikes, but talking to this gentleman really opened my eyes.

IMO: The order of damage

1. Walking wrong with metal spikes
2. Walking wrong with soft spikes
3. Walking right with metal spikes
4. Walking right with soft spikes

In this case, I still see no reason to use steel spikes because if you can walk right in them you still do more damage than soft spikes walking the same way.

 

[JB]

IMO: The order of damage

1. Walking wrong with metal spikes
2. Walking wrong with soft spikes
3. Walking right with metal spikes
4. Walking right with soft spikes

In this case, I still see no reason to use steel spikes because if you can walk right in them you still do more damage than soft spikes walking the same way.

Can you explain why the single prong of a metal spike causes more damage in your opinion than the multipronged approach of the soft spike?

 

[blugold]

I don't even know where to find metal spikes. I am also curious to which of the tour pros still wear them.

 

[Spaceman_Spiff]

Most of the courses I've played around the greater Denver metro area are all anti metal spike. They don't allow 'em. The first real pair of golf shoes I owned were metal spikes. They hurt like the dickens wearing them and were so uncomfortable I only played with them once.

I completely understand the argument of "walking properly" because I have some buddies who are either toe walkers or scuffers and they tear up shoes and courses like nobody's business. Never pretty especially when one of them is just coming into golf and knows little if any etiquette.

 

[RxGus]

Can you explain why the single prong of a metal spike causes more damage in your opinion than the multipronged approach of the soft spike?

My thoughts are that the spike extends well into the ground, providing the opportunity to cause physical damage to the ground and root structures.
I think that waking "correctly" limits this damage, but even walking perfectly still provides some twisting to the spikes. Longer spikes = more leverage. Leverage would be the root of course damage.

 

[JB]

My thoughts are that the spike extends well into the ground, providing the opportunity to cause physical damage to the ground and root structures.
I think that waking "correctly" limits this damage, but even walking perfectly still provides some twisting to the spikes. Longer spikes = more leverage. Leverage would be the root of course damage.

I will ask this course architect about this on Tuesday when we speak again. His thoughts were exactly the opposite of this because of the multiprong approach and the fact that they turn to cause more damage.

 

[CharlieMoy]

Can you explain why the single prong of a metal spike causes more damage in your opinion than the multipronged approach of the soft spike?

A)Distribution of pressure.

B)Metal spikes can push the plant and blade of grass into the ground, especially on how tight the greens are mown.

Softspikes push down the leaf blades, but any pga tour course should have the plant health for the leaf blades to bounce right back up. Resilience of the plant is a variable.

 

[RxGus]

I will ask this course architect about this on Tuesday when we speak again. His thoughts were exactly the opposite of this because of the multiprong approach and the fact that they turn to cause more damage.

I would appreciate that a lot JB. As I said, this is just my thoughts based on an admittedly basic understanding of physics.\
Does my point make sense about the leverage causing more damage when they twist, or go in/out of the soil? I can attempt to draw a visualization if what I am supposing isn't clear.

 

[JB]

I would appreciate that a lot JB. As I said, this is just my thoughts based on an admittedly basic understanding of physics.\
Does my point make sense about the leverage causing more damage when they twist, or go in/out of the soil? I can attempt to draw a visualization if what I am supposing isn't clear.

It does make sense, but that would also vary quite a bit by type of grass and the resiliency of said grass in my opinion.

 

[CharlieMoy]

I also think metal spikes hurt the overall health of the plant, not just playability. No one needs their greens being aerified all day every day.

It does make sense, but that would also vary quite a bit by type of grass and the resiliency of said grass in my opinion.

 

[highscoreinky]

Have only been playing for 4 years so soft spikes are all I know. I know some of the guys that I play with could cause massive damage to greens because of how they drag their feet. You'd probably be able to plant rows of corn on the green after they got done walking on it with metal spikes. Seems like a lot of younger players (teenagers) at my course tend to shuffle or drag their feet as well.

 

[RxGus]

Here is an article published in 1998 in michigan.

It's a little older, but I think it shows my point.
It talks about damage to greens (based on staff observation, p. 53) in addition to damage to other course structures (wood, etc).

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/gcman/article/1998feb49.pdf

 

[All4's]

The argument Faldo made against metal spikes after the Vijay/Phil spat is not what is being done on their way INTO the green, it is marks that metal spikes leave coming out. They then showed an HD shot of Phil as he walked off the green and when they zoomed in you 7 little spike holes and the front 3 had mini-ant hills where his spikes had come back out of the green. Soft spikes never penetrate the surface deeply and so they don't have the same problem of the dirt attaching to them and coming out.

As far as the pros who wear them, with the exception of Rory McIllroy I only know of Phil, Elkington and a few others who wear them.

 

[SD Charlie]

Interesting that this issue still pops up. I thought metals were outlawed years ago. The last time I remember hearing about this discussion was before I even played golf and I remember it involving John Daly. (I could be wrong about Daly, my memory is shaky) Every scorecard I've seen plainly states "soft spike facility, no metal spikes allowed" or something to that effect. That always made me think, because I would think that metal spikes couldn't be all that bad, almost like free aerification. Then again, the real issue is people who either can't, or won't walk in the manner that would be least damaging. I can also see a lot of people kicking of scuffing a green out of anger after missing a putt.

To be honest, I wouldn't know where to even find metal-spiked golf shoes. I guess the internets, but in stores??? It would be an intersting experiment to try, personally, since I generally tread lightly. Most of the courses I play don't seem able to police this sort of thing, so I bet I could sneak out there on metals. Not that I would try, of course, since it's against the rules and I don't really feel like buying a pair of shoes that I couldn't use anywhere.

 

[CharlieMoy]

Interesting that this issue still pops up. I thought metals were outlawed years ago.

This discussion is largely based on Tour players, they pretty much are outlawed on all courses.

To be honest, I wouldn't know where to even find metal-spiked golf shoes. I guess the internets, but in stores???

Tour players can get them.

 

[jnug]

Not only will improper walking tear up the ground in both cases but some folks are also heavy walkers. Heavy walkers that also walk improperly would be prone to do the most damage with either shoe type and in fact in that specific case, I could see how the metal spike damage would hardly be worse than the damage done by plastic and I could even see where the larger surface area of the plastic spikes could actually do more damage.

If one is not a heavy walker but does walk improperly I cannot see how the shoes that do not have metal spikes could do as much damage as those that do.

One other thing that will cause damage especially with metal spikes is when people will turn or twist carelessly in the spikes. Every once and awhile someone will take a first step turning as opposed to walking into a turn and that can really tear up the turf especially in metal because the user is turning from a dead stop and is thus prone to twist the spikes in the ground. That can leave a really ugly and obvious bit of damage.

By the way, you do not have to be a heavy person to e a heavy walker nor is a heavy person automatically a heavy walker. Jackie Gleason, a notorious big guy and golfer was pretty light on his feet. You can usually tell if someone is one or the other based on the wear of their regular shoes. Heavy walkers will tend to wear out the entire structure of a shoe more than a light walker. I would not recommend expensive italian shoes to a heavy walker as he will likely have them looking pretty beat up in no time.

 

[Golf 'N Gator]

My home course sells and allow's metal spikes and I wear em when it is wet but that is the only time. I wear spikeless at all other times. I have Champs in my old Adidas. There are maybe eight or ten players at my course still wearing steel and it is a none issue there.

There was another thread here last fall I think covering this very subject.

 

[Slammin'SAM]

I played many years of tournament golf in the metal spike era, and many more in the soft spike era. All I can say is, given the choice, I would NEVER like to see the game go back to metal spikes. Putting surfaces instantly played smoother after the conversion took place.

 

[Esox]

Jackie Gleason, a notorious big guy and golfer was pretty light on his feet.

Many people say the same thing about me. Very light on my feet for a big guy. Excellent dancer. Could easily wear metal spikes and not damage a green.

Kevin

 

[tnc200]

I've never used steel spikes. I always figured the courses didn't want the damage to the clubhouse rather than the green. If the pga tour allows them, that is all that needs to be said.