Scorecard Vs. Handicap - Posting Scores

[White Rhino]

I know there are alot of people here who are rules experts and I need your help to settle an arguement from my round yesterday.
I understand when someone has an established they can only post up to a certain score (like a 6 on a par 3 etc.) but does this also come into play when they are actually scoring the round? Is a person who is a 15 handicap allowed to stop playing on a par 3 after they get to 6 and use the reasoning "that is all I can post"? It was my belief that you play the whole out and then let the computer sort it out when you post your score.
I appreciate al help on this and if I am correct I would appreciate knowing where I can find the answer so I can educate my friend.

 

[TC]

You know my stance: you count every single stroke until the ball is in the hole. That would be like me walking off the 18th at the Palmer Course and telling JB that I "can only take an 8", he would've had a field day with me. You score what you score on the scorecard, then enter what you scored into your handicap provider and it will make adjustments at that time. The user shouldn't make the adjustments on the course.

 

[#Cookie]

You know my stance: you count every single stroke until the ball is in the hole. That would be like me walking off the 18th at the Palmer Course and telling JB that I "can only take an 8", he would've had a field day with me. You score what you score on the scorecard, then enter what you scored into your handicap provider and it will make adjustments at that time. The user shouldn't make the adjustments on the course.

Completely agree here. Even though your score for an individual hole may be lowered for handicap purposes, how could anyone in their right mind say they shot an 81 for example when stroke wise they really had an 87.

If I played with a regular playing partner that did something like this and we competed at all, this would not fly.

 

[StLCardsFan]

You know my stance: you count every single stroke until the ball is in the hole. That would be like me walking off the 18th at the Palmer Course and telling JB that I "can only take an 8", he would've had a field day with me. You score what you score on the scorecard, then enter what you scored into your handicap provider and it will make adjustments at that time. The user shouldn't make the adjustments on the course.

Exactly right. You keep scoring until the ball is holed then when you enter into your handicap system, you make the adjustment(s) for the bad holes. If you are playing for something and total score is dependant on it, it might make a difference. If there is nothing riding on the round other than to post into a handicap, it probably doesn't make a difference. Although if you keep track of average score it should also be included.

 

[StupidLester]

None of the computers I have ever seen will adjust the score for you. You always put in the final 18 hole score. So for playing purposes yes you play till you hole out and count every stroke. For posting purposes you go back through and if you took a 10 on a hole you're only allowed a 6 on you would take 4 shots off the final score you post.

Sounds like your playing partner was pissed and just didnt wanna finish the hole. Golf should be fun if your not playing for money and he wants to pick up no big deal I guess. If it keeps him having fun so be it. But yes you should take your 8 and subtract 2 later when you post.

 

[Kmac]

You know my stance: you count every single stroke until the ball is in the hole. That would be like me walking off the 18th at the Palmer Course and telling JB that I "can only take an 8", he would've had a field day with me. You score what you score on the scorecard, then enter what you scored into your handicap provider and it will make adjustments at that time. The user shouldn't make the adjustments on the course.

Agree with CFLTC here. I put down whatever amount of strokes it takes to get the ball into the hole and then let the handicap system take care of adjustments.

 

[White Rhino]

None of the computers I have ever seen will adjust the score for you. You always put in the final 18 hole score. So for playing purposes yes you play till you hole out and count every stroke. For posting purposes you go back through and if you took a 10 on a hole you're only allowed a 6 on you would take 4 shots off the final score you post.

Sounds like your playing partner was pissed and just didnt wanna finish the hole. Golf should be fun if your not playing for money and he wants to pick up no big deal I guess. If it keeps him having fun so be it. But yes you should take your 8 and subtract 2 later when you post.

I was not sure about this. I have never had an "official" handicap where I posted at on a computer at a club. I use two online sites (OOOB and Fairway Flies and there I post score put hole and the site does make adjustments. I do not know how the score is entered at the club computer, if it is just total score then I would thing one would mark their card where adjust ments needed to be made, if hole by hole then maybe it is the same as the online sites.

Ethically I agree with TC and everyone else, what you shoot you put on the card! Only way you will ever get better is being truthful to yourself.

 

[CharlieMoy]

I have always entered my score hole by hole. From there it will do the adjustment for you.


I think there is a distinct difference in the score you shoot, vs the score you post.

None of the computers I have ever seen will adjust the score for you. You always put in the final 18 hole score. So for playing purposes yes you play till you hole out and count every stroke. For posting purposes you go back through and if you took a 10 on a hole you're only allowed a 6 on you would take 4 shots off the final score you post.

Sounds like your playing partner was pissed and just didnt wanna finish the hole. Golf should be fun if your not playing for money and he wants to pick up no big deal I guess. If it keeps him having fun so be it. But yes you should take your 8 and subtract 2 later when you post.

 

[Golf 'N Gator]

From the USGA Handicap manual

Section 4 ADJUSTING HOLE SCORES
Definitions
Within each section, all defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in Section 2 - Definitions.
The game of golf is based on the premise that a player will play as well as the player can play. Under the USGA Handicap System, each player is required to record a hole score for a hole not finished, not played, or not played under "The Rules of Golf," and to reduce any hole score when it is higher than the maximum number allowed under Equitable Stroke Control.
4-1. Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes
A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score. The most likely score may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit, defined in Section 4-3. This most likely score should be preceded by an "X." (See Decision 4-1/1.)
There is no limit to the number of unfinished holes a player may have in a round, provided that failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation.
Example 1: A and B are partners in a four-ball stroke play competition. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A lies two, 18 feet from the hole. B lies two, 25 feet from the hole. B holes a putt for a 3. A picks up on the hole, because A cannot better B's score. A records X-4 on the scorecard because 4 is A's most likely score.
Example 2: A and B are playing a match. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A has holed out in 4; B has a 30-foot putt for a 5. B has lost the hole, and picks up. B records X-6 on the scorecard because 6 is B's most likely score.
Example 3: A and B are playing a match. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A is one foot from the hole, lying 4. B is 10 feet from the hole, lying 3. B putts and misses. They both concede a half. Both players record X-5 because that is their most likely score.

 

[RxGus]

From the USGA Handicap manual

Section 4 ADJUSTING HOLE SCORES
Definitions
Within each section, all defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in Section 2 - Definitions.
The game of golf is based on the premise that a player will play as well as the player can play. Under the USGA Handicap System, each player is required to record a hole score for a hole not finished, not played, or not played under "The Rules of Golf," and to reduce any hole score when it is higher than the maximum number allowed under Equitable Stroke Control.
4-1. Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes
A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score. The most likely score may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit, defined in Section 4-3. This most likely score should be preceded by an "X." (See Decision 4-1/1.)
There is no limit to the number of unfinished holes a player may have in a round, provided that failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation.
Example 1: A and B are partners in a four-ball stroke play competition. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A lies two, 18 feet from the hole. B lies two, 25 feet from the hole. B holes a putt for a 3. A picks up on the hole, because A cannot better B's score. A records X-4 on the scorecard because 4 is A's most likely score.
Example 2: A and B are playing a match. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A has holed out in 4; B has a 30-foot putt for a 5. B has lost the hole, and picks up. B records X-6 on the scorecard because 6 is B's most likely score.
Example 3: A and B are playing a match. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A is one foot from the hole, lying 4. B is 10 feet from the hole, lying 3. B putts and misses. They both concede a half. Both players record X-5 because that is their most likely score.

The above situation though reflect concession in match play, and not a stroke play when the player must hole out for a score. In the scenario's above not finishing the hole has no effect on the outcome of the match. In stroke play that is simply not the case.

Now you can make the argument that if you are just playing for fun that you can pick up after ESC is reached, but you can't claim that as your score for the round. I am on the record as thinking the rules of golf are debatable if you aren't keeping a handicap or playing for money- and that applies here as well.

I guess my last question is that- if you are picking up because you are playing a hole so poorly, then how do you know what you would have "likely scored" on the hole? Obviously you aren't playing the hole in the manner you "likely" would.

 

[Fourputt]

I know there are alot of people here who are rules experts and I need your help to settle an arguement from my round yesterday.
I understand when someone has an established they can only post up to a certain score (like a 6 on a par 3 etc.) but does this also come into play when they are actually scoring the round? Is a person who is a 15 handicap allowed to stop playing on a par 3 after they get to 6 and use the reasoning "that is all I can post"? It was my belief that you play the whole out and then let the computer sort it out when you post your score.
I appreciate al help on this and if I am correct I would appreciate knowing where I can find the answer so I can educate my friend.

Every stroke counts for score. You only adjust for Equitable Stroke Control after the round is finished. If there is no competition or wager involved, then you don't have to mark the full score, or even finish the hole once you've reached your ESC limit.

Your true score is always the actual number of strokes it takes to hole out.

The above situation though reflect concession in match play, and not a stroke play when the player must hole out for a score. In the scenario's above not finishing the hole has no effect on the outcome of the match. In stroke play that is simply not the case.

Now you can make the argument that if you are just playing for fun that you can pick up after ESC is reached, but you can't claim that as your score for the round. I am on the record as thinking the rules of golf are debatable if you aren't keeping a handicap or playing for money- and that applies here as well.

I guess my last question is that- if you are picking up because you are playing a hole so poorly, then how do you know what you would have "likely scored" on the hole? Obviously you aren't playing the hole in the manner you "likely" would.

For a strict match you don't even have to enter a score. If you have lost the hole and picked up, you just mark an "X" on the card. Estimated score only comes onto effect for a stroke round where you aren't competing for anything and the score is only for handicap purposes. In most cases those unfinished holes have probably reached their ESC limit anyway.

It might be a case where you are playing stroke skins with your buddies and you pick up when you are clearly out of the hole and hope that the skin carries over. You estimate your most probable score and mark that on the card. It would most likely come into play on a par 3 hole where a 10-19 capper is allowed up to a 7, but is not yet on the green in 3 while two guys are putting for birdie. He's pretty much toast for that hole and there's no sense wasting any more time to make the probably double or triple bogey. In that case I would probably chip on, and if I don't hole out I'd pick up and mark one or 2 more on the card, depending on the length of the putt.

 

[White Rhino]

Every stroke counts for score. You only adjust for Equitable Stroke Control after the round is finished. If there is no competition or wager involved, then you don't have to mark the full score, or even finish the hole once you've reached your ESC limit. Your true score is always the actual number of strokes it takes to hole out.

So then the person I was playing with was correct? Once they reach the ESC limit they can just pick up and walk?

 

[RxGus]

So then the person I was playing with was correct? Once they reach the ESC limit they can just pick up and walk?

If you have no wager on the round between the two of you, and he doesn't try to tell you he shot a 91 to your 92 and that he beat you.

 

[Spank818]

I'm with the crowd of folks that play it out and let the computers sort out ESC post round. The only thing where picking up would be advantageous is in a super crowded course and someone is breathing down your neck and you're shooting double digits already. Like many have said as well, in that situation, just as long as there's no wagers or game involved, then I wouldn't hesitate to pickup.

 

[White Rhino]

If you have no wager on the round between the two of you, and he doesn't try to tell you he shot a 91 to your 92 and that he beat you.

Why not? If there is no error in picking up then the score is accurate no?

 

[#Cookie]

Why not? If there is no error in picking up then the score is accurate no?

The score would be accurate for handicap purposes but not accurate for "I shot a 91" as stated by RxGus.

 

[cg13]

I was not sure about this. I have never had an "official" handicap where I posted at on a computer at a club. I use two online sites (OOOB and Fairway Flies and there I post score put hole and the site does make adjustments. I do not know how the score is entered at the club computer, if it is just total score then I would thing one would mark their card where adjust ments needed to be made, if hole by hole then maybe it is the same as the online sites.

Ethically I agree with TC and everyone else, what you shoot you put on the card! Only way you will ever get better is being truthful to yourself.

White Rhine - when i finish a round at my club - theres a computer i log into for my GHIN. it doesnt adjust my equitable stroke count for me - so i have to check my scorecard. My handicap says i cannot enter a score over 7 on a hole.
knowing me - ill have one or two holes like that. so i subtract them from my round and post the score at the computer. I used OOB last year and still enter all my rounds into it - it tracks progress and stuff which is nice.

As for picking up and finishing - thats a cop out. I played with a guy that did that a few times - but he wasnt doing it for handicap reasons - he was just giving up on the hole. if they are doing that bad i usually just let it go - unless im feeling peppy in which case ill make a wise crack lol

Equitable Stroke Control Chart
Course Handicap Maximum Score
0-9 Double Bogey
10-19 7
20-29 8
30-39 9
40 or more 10

 

[RxGus]

Why not? If there is no error in picking up then the score is accurate no?

The score is not accurate. Your score is the number of shots that it takes you to get the ball in the hole. Equitable Stroke Control ONLY effects your handicap. It prevents one (or three) blowup holes from killing your handicap. Your ESC score is only a number to be used in mathematical calculations.

Example:
On the champ last year I shot a 101, but when I posted my score I "scored" a 98 for Handicap purposes. I shot a 101 either way you look at it, but my handicap reflects a 98. I can't in good conscience tell you I broke 100 on the champ... because I didn't.

Edit:
In the above example, if you shot a 100 but had no "reduced" holes via ESC you beat me because I shot a 101 and you shot a 100.

 

[CharlieMoy]

What rxgus is saying is that if someone picks up, he could've shot a 20 on that hole. But because he did pick up, he can't say he beat you for whatever reason because the potential amount of strokes he possibly couldve taken by finishing the hole is infinite.

Unless you both use ESC throughout the round, than it's just an unbelievable amount of fun happening in that group.

From the iPhone.

 

[Hole~Out~1983]

Why not? If there is no error in picking up then the score is accurate no?

This rule apply's for HC purposes only during casual play. It does not apply during tournament play. The reason is they dont want a 5 HC to go out and have a few bad rounds that bring his HC up to a 10 and then have him play in a tournament with other 10 HC'ers and go out and completely destroy them because he is a true 5 HC player. Hope that makes sense.

Edit: So if you guys were playing a competetive rounds he would need to count every stroke during the course of play. Then when it came time to post in the computer he could shave his Equitable Strokes at that time but for your guy' competition he would have to count every on course stroke and he should not of been picking up his ball if you guys were playing for something.

 

[Snap Hook]

I'm only allowed to talk to the beer cart girl twice because I'm soo good looking. If she gives me her number after the 4th visit I still only record it as the second visit.

 

[Br1an_g]

well, ours is a net bouble bogey rule for handicap purposes.
but i always finish the hole regardless or the card can not be submitted for the competition you are entered in for handicap. as your score for competition purposes is the total number of strokes to finish your 18 holes minus your given handicap. not your maximum score utilising your handicap rules system.

 

[tnc200]

On the blowup holes, I still try to finish out if it doesn't slow down the group. If I'm causing a delay I'll pick up though. I don't bet usually so it's not an issue for that. Normally I do finish all holes out and let the esc take care of itself later. I don't like quoting a score if I had a hole I picked up on.

 

[White Rhino]

This rule apply's for HC purposes only during casual play. It does not apply during tournament play. The reason is they dont want a 5 HC to go out and have a few bad rounds that bring his HC up to a 10 and then have him play in a tournament with other 10 HC'ers and go out and completely destroy them because he is a true 5 HC player. Hope that makes sense.

Edit: So if you guys were playing a competetive rounds he would need to count every stroke during the course of play. Then when it came time to post in the computer he could shave his Equitable Strokes at that time but for your guy' competition he would have to count every on course stroke and he should not of been picking up his ball if you guys were playing for something.

We were playing skins $1 a hole, each time they picked up they had already lost the skin. I figured it was ok. Guess not.

 

[tnc200]

If you have a stroke score bet everyone has to finish out. If you have a match bet picking up would be conceding the hole. To me what the esc allows is the occasional blowup hole not killing my handicap too badly. I don't tear up the scorecard because of one bad hole. A triple is plenty bad enough imo.