White Dogwood is a poorly designed hole

[blugold]

one could argue that Aberg's attempt from 220 on Sunday was the most consequential decision of the tournament.
is that mean the hole is poorly designed, or well designed?

Excellently placed hole to influence the outcome. Poorly designed to reward players.

Forcing the best players on the planet to hit mid irons into some holes is a good thing.

Letting them hit wedges and nine irons all the time is not. They have a nice mix on that course.

ANGC has a bunch of par four holes where guys can make 3, or they can make a six or seven. That makes them good holes in my book.

As @MWard mentioned, then make the green more receptive. Having long irons into a par 4 isn't my favorite idea, but a well designed long par 4 has a receptive green that's designed to hold those long irons. That green is not.

 

[CBaker]

I give it to ya @blugold, going after the masters has proven interesting for most. Good luck hah

 

[willplaysgolf]

I think the drive is a little one dimensional. Seems like a great green and surround to chase an angle off the tee but that option isn't really there.

Gotta disagree on the second shot being boring. Lots of intrigue if you run through the top 10 yesterday. Bryson and Fleetwood had makable birdies that would have been huge for their chances to win had they made them. Xander was right off the tee and didn't have a look. Collin and Aberg both ejected on the hole. Collin talked about afterwards how he just got greedy which to me supports the idea that there is some temptation. Didn't hear any Aberg quotes on it, but I gotta think it was the same deal and/or his lack of experience predicting the wind. Homa had to really grind over how much to bite off which IMO is interesting as a viewer. Scottie is the best iron player right now, both in his ability and his decision making. I don't believe there was a hole design in the world that would lure him into a risky shot in that situation, so I don't think him bailing a bit is a demerit to the hole.

 

[blugold]

I give it to ya @blugold, going after the masters has proven interesting for most. Good luck hah

I am not speaking against the tournament or the course as a whole. Literally just one hole.

 

[McLovin]

it's a fantastic hole. just because it's hard doesn't mean it's a bad design...

 

[Parrot]

Isn't a big part of golf about managing risk? You take on some pins on certain holes but not others. Even when 11 was shorter, players still favored the right side miss. And it played easier yesterday, at least by scoring average, than it did in the first 3 rounds and tied with round 1 for fewest doubles.

 

[blugold]

it's a fantastic hole. just because it's hard doesn't mean it's a bad design...

Hard has nothing to do with it being a poor design.

 

[tequila4kapp]

I think the hole is just about perfect.

 

[The Milk Man]

For the week 11 played as the toughest hole yielding 17 birdies and 22 doubles. Holes 4 and 5 yielded less birdies at with 15 on 5 and 16 on 4. Hole 12 came closest in doubles with 21.

11 can be had but it requires a great shot, which is what I want from a par 4. Fireworks can be had on the par 5's. The worst changes to the course might be 15 which played slightly over par for the week.

https://www.masters.com/en_US/scores/stats/index.html

 

[odom730]

The only people in the top 10 that bailed out yesterday were Scheffler (wisely) and Hatton. Everyone else took on the green and had chances.

 

[McLovin]

Hard has nothing to do with it being a poor design.

your premise is that the hole is not exciting because players make course-management decisions on that hole to avoid risk. the risk is what makes the hole difficult. it's not a bad hole because there is risk that is often avoided.

i also disagree that players who went for the green were punished. we saw players execute shots that found the putting surface in two. the tee shot and approach have small margins for error, hence the difficulty.

also, that little nook of land is inexplicably perfect.

 

[blugold]

The only people in the top 10 that bailed out yesterday were Scheffler (wisely) and Hatton. Everyone else took on the green and had chances.

I just looked, you're right. A lot of guys had shots of <190 into that green. Some 180 or shorter. There were chances.

With this new information, I am softening my stance just a bit. Seems like the last two groups just weren't long enough off the tee to challenge that hole.

Time for some weights and speed training for 75% of those guys

 

[Scott F]

Here’s a YouTube video about the history of hole #11

 

[blugold]

your premise is that the hole is not exciting because players make course-management decisions on that hole to avoid risk. the risk is what makes the hole difficult. it's not a bad hole because there is risk that is often avoided.

I still think the green should be a little more receptive for longer iron shots.

i also disagree that players who went for the green were punished. we saw players execute shots that found the putting surface in two. the tee shot and approach have small margins for error, hence the difficulty.

Looking back almost every second shot into 11 (how awesome is the Master's website?) The players who were aggressive off the tee were left with the best chances coming in.

also, that little nook of land is inexplicably perfect.

Augusta is a pretty good course, I wouldn't call it perfect, but it's a good course.

 

[jjjgolf500]

View attachment 9257439

They changed it again in 2022 and I think its perfect now. The fairway is pretty massive now, but placement is key and helps the second shot. If you are willing to take on the water, good shots are rewarded. If not, getting up and in from the right side of the green is no easy task. Yesterday, watching the final groups good shots held the green easily. Fleetwood hit a great shot pin high, Homa hit a great shot pin high, Cam hit one on the front of the green, Hoggard hit one to 20 ish feet, Bryson hit one to like 7 feet, Willy Z hit one to like 10 feet. Kawa and Aberg just hit poor shots, and at the time there was no reason for Chef to go anywhere near the pin, but playing away ultimately cost him a shot.

 

[El Rayo X]

Blasphemy!
We've seen some great shots in there over the years, and a lot of mistakes from guys getting cocky.
“If you ever see me on the 11th green in two, you'll know I missed my second shot.” - Ben Hogan

 

[mav52]

too long for whom. Scottie even took a 5 on #11 rd 4. Risk/reward. Whats next #12 is to short, to tough , not fair. All the holes play the same for every pro thats out there, some use their head, others take a risk, or just make a mistake in their swing...

 

[blugold]

Blasphemy!
We've seen some great shots in there over the years, and a lot of mistakes from guys getting cocky.
“If you ever see me on the 11th green in two, you'll know I missed my second shot.” - Ben Hogan

The bolded supports my claim that it's a bad design. And the 11th is not the same hole Hogan played.