ClairefromClare

Give 'em Helen!
Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Messages
12,274
Reaction score
95
Location
Right over THERE
Handicap
Brazilian
Followed some blog links and came across this one from an HR web site. I really believe that tees have nothing to do with sex (gender referring to nouns in romance languages, but I've done that grammar rant before). They should be assigned based on handicap. Most men should be playing from the red tees! Anyway, for what it's worth:

New study finds ‘grass ceiling’ at golf courses

Dear HR Executive:

Does your organization walk the walk when it comes to equal opportunities for women? Or do low expectations and hidden barriers continue to block their path? I was reminded about how insidious those barriers can be by a fascinating new study of golf courses. Yes, golf courses! It seems many have a “grass ceiling” when it comes to female golfers.

Three researchers from the University of New Mexico looked at data from about 455 golf courses in all 50 states. Each course was matched with a census locale. In parallel, the researchers looked at locality-specific earnings data for men and women in three occupations for which networking is critical – sales, sales and marketing management, and general management. Here’s what the researchers – two men and one woman – found:

Distance from tee to green
In geographical areas where the women’s tees were farther in front of the men’s tees (the average national distance was 50 yards) women managers consistently earned less money than comparable men. In other words, short distances for women correlated closely with short salaries. Why is this? The researchers saw two reasons:
  • Where women’s tees are closer to the hole, there may be negative beliefs about women’s golfing prowess – and abilities in general.
  • Large tee-box distances tend to segregate men and women into separate golf carts, and limit the time women spend networking with men in carts and waiting to tee off.
Although many overt barriers to women’s advancement have come down, the researchers concluded, “We are left with more subtle barriers like different golf tee placements.” Does your organization harbor any such barriers? It might be worth running a self-check to see.

John Hiatt
Executive Editor
Source: “The Impact of Gender-Differentiated Golf Course Structures on Women’s Networking Abilities,” by Michelle M. Arthur et al. Info: www.aomonline.org
 
Followed some blog links and came across this one from an HR web site. I really believe that tees have nothing to do with sex (gender referring to nouns in romance languages, but I've done that grammar rant before). They should be assigned based on handicap. Most men should be playing from the red tees! Anyway, for what it's worth:

New study finds ‘grass ceiling’ at golf courses

Dear HR Executive:

Does your organization walk the walk when it comes to equal opportunities for women? Or do low expectations and hidden barriers continue to block their path? I was reminded about how insidious those barriers can be by a fascinating new study of golf courses. Yes, golf courses! It seems many have a “grass ceiling” when it comes to female golfers.

Three researchers from the University of New Mexico looked at data from about 455 golf courses in all 50 states. Each course was matched with a census locale. In parallel, the researchers looked at locality-specific earnings data for men and women in three occupations for which networking is critical – sales, sales and marketing management, and general management. Here’s what the researchers – two men and one woman – found:

Distance from tee to green
In geographical areas where the women’s tees were farther in front of the men’s tees (the average national distance was 50 yards) women managers consistently earned less money than comparable men. In other words, short distances for women correlated closely with short salaries. Why is this? The researchers saw two reasons:
  • Where women’s tees are closer to the hole, there may be negative beliefs about women’s golfing prowess – and abilities in general.
  • Large tee-box distances tend to segregate men and women into separate golf carts, and limit the time women spend networking with men in carts and waiting to tee off.
Although many overt barriers to women’s advancement have come down, the researchers concluded, “We are left with more subtle barriers like different golf tee placements.” Does your organization harbor any such barriers? It might be worth running a self-check to see.

John Hiatt
Executive Editor
Source: “The Impact of Gender-Differentiated Golf Course Structures on Women’s Networking Abilities,” by Michelle M. Arthur et al. Info: www.aomonline.org

Naw, it's just so the old man can break wind without his ole lady complaining about it, hehehe. I'm sorry, feeling silly.

So what are your thoughts on this Claire?? I understand what you are saying about:
They should be assigned based on handicap. Most men should be playing from the red tees!
But the article seems to be generalizing(to me at least), that there is still the social seperation between the sexes. What about physical differences(do you think they exsist?). Also the course I play at has no "womens tees", it's "forward, club, medal, and champion", so was this taken in to consideration?

Am I allowed to comment here?
 
Great find Claire...I'm curious on how you stumbled on it, an HR or a golf publication?

A man was hitting from the red tees at my course recently. The pro saw him and hollered out, "Please make note of your tee boxes." The man was startled, stopped, and lined up for his shot again. The pro hollered out, "sir, you are hitting from the red tee. Please make note of your tee box." The golfer stopped, stretched his shoulders, and lined up for again. The pro ran up to him. "Buddy, you're hitting from the red tee!"

The guy said, "I know, now would you let me hit my second shot?" (My daddy told me this one...he loves his women golfers! :wink:)

I try not to kick the balls I step over getting to my tee. It's my service to the game. If some dude wants to play like that: stroke his ego and add a few strokes, that's his prerogative.

Craig: I've seen red tees, but they're never labeled Women's tees.

Physical differences exist. They do. I'd never take a healthy man arm wrestling. But ability differences exist - some hack playing from tees too far back, consistently, bugs me. I'm plenty more athletic than some of these guys. So having different tee boxes helps both these camps. I think the article is saying that if the tee boxes are separated at a more extreme distance that the pay difference is more extreme, too. And if they're mentally progressive enough to not have separate tees, the women get treated even better.
 
Great joke....the first time I heard it:wink:
I try not to kick the balls I step over getting to my tee. It's my service to the game. If some dude wants to play like that: stroke his ego and add a few strokes, that's his prerogative.

This is why i like her!!!

Physical differences exist. They do. I'd never take a healthy man arm wrestling. But ability differences exist - some hack playing from tees too far back, consistently, bugs me. I'm plenty more athletic than some of these guys. So having different tee boxes helps both these camps. I think the article is saying that if the tee boxes are separated at a more extreme distance that the pay difference is more extreme, too. And if they're mentally progressive enough to not have separate tees, the women get treated even better.
Who decides what tee box you play from? wait...don't answer that, as you all ready know(smarty pants) it's a rhetorical question. That's the beauty of golf, each person decides how they want to play. It's your choice if you want to play the tips and scruff and duff, taking mulligans and fluffing lies then tell everyone you shot some incredible round. Or like I am sure you do, choose appropriately and enjoy the game. Misconception is in the eye of the misconceptioner, there are many women I see on the course that a) can probably beat me and b) have more money. I'll play with any one of them as long as they are decent company, ya know...
 
The big problem with playing from too far back is pace of play. I truly think tee boxes should be based on handicap, not chromosomes. My husband has no business playing white tees (okay, neither do I, but I don't)--drive after drive 150 yards into the woods. He had shoulder surgery this spring and over the summer, finally consented to play from the red tees as part of his recovery. He had much more fun doing so.

(Oh, and with that Internet handicap adjustment, I'm really +2 from the tips)
 
I don't know which I find more alarming:

The fact that someone did the research and published that ridiculous piece, or that anyone gives a damn.

It's a game for cripes sake. As long as you're having fun, who cares which tees you hit from?
 
I don't know which I find more alarming:

The fact that someone did the research and published that ridiculous piece, or that anyone gives a damn.

It's a game for cripes sake. As long as you're having fun, who cares which tees you hit from?

I think the "giving a damn" has more to do with the pay part than the game part. Suffrage was how long ago and I'm still earning 76 cents to the dollar? Pffff.
 
I think the "giving a damn" has more to do with the pay part than the game part. Suffrage was how long ago and I'm still earning 76 cents to the dollar? Pffff.

I think it's just a bad example trying to compare tee distance seperation to pay scale. If it makes you feel any better I feel I'm only getting pennies on the dollar.:snicker:

I would bet if I did a pay scale analysis for the men you would find more money in the pockets of men on the back tees than you would on the "whites", but that may just be ego.
 
I think it's just a bad example trying to compare tee distance seperation to pay scale.

I'm not saying it's a great example, it's just an interesting one.

Like I said in an earlier post, it's an example of progressive *minded* courses - if a course had the balls to only offer one tee box, would I play there? Maybe, maybe not. But I'd work there, bet I'd be paid great!

I know not all jobs offer 76/100. I myself would demand a promotion, or not stay at that job, if that's what I was (knowingly) offered. But it's the average, and sad that it's still the average.
 
I'm not saying it's a great example, it's just an interesting one.

Like I said in an earlier post, it's an example of progressive *minded* courses - if a course had the balls to only offer one tee box, would I play there? Maybe, maybe not. But I'd work there, bet I'd be paid great!

I know not all jobs offer 76/100. I myself would demand a promotion, or not stay at that job, if that's what I was (knowingly) offered. But it's the average, and sad that it's still the average.

agree, agree, and agree
 
And because it's an average, it doesn't compare two folks working the same job. Which has its whole host of issues--bigger than the 76 cents thing.

I prefer medians to averages in any event. Better at nullifying the outliers.
 
No new stats, Julie. I'm spending my day flipping between spreadsheets. It's making me bonkers, which is why I keep escaping here.

We could get into that whole hedgehog versus fox analogy, but I simply don't have the energy for it today.

Love the belt, Josh!
 
My hips are designed so that I was able to carry a full combat load in the Marines for long distances. As such, they would suck for childbirth.

Men and women are not equal. We're different. Not better. Not worse. Different.

Well, my wife IS smarter than me, but that's a different discussion......
 

Attachments

  • CuWsWsvVIAA1AoQ.jpg
    CuWsWsvVIAA1AoQ.jpg
    179.1 KB · Views: 15
They should be assigned based on handicap.

This is simply wrong.
Tees should be assigned based on the average distance you can hit. There's a correlation with handicap, but it's not a hard and fast rule. There are plenty of people out there like me - high handicappers that can hit the ball a long way. We're high handicappers because some other facet of our game is lacking, in my case it's consistency and aim. If I was to play my regular 9 hole course from the red tees on a decent (not great) driving day, both par 3s would be pitching wedge or less, most of the par 4s would either be drivable or call for driver then a sand wedge, and the shorter of the par 5s would be driver - 9 iron to potentially get on in 2. And no, I don't have to hit driver off the tee all the time, but since it's usually my most reliable club, why wouldn't I?

I'm not a good golfer, but it isn't because I'm playing from the wrong tees.
 
This is simply wrong.
Tees should be assigned based on the average distance you can hit. There's a correlation with handicap, but it's not a hard and fast rule. There are plenty of people out there like me - high handicappers that can hit the ball a long way. We're high handicappers because some other facet of our game is lacking, in my case it's consistency and aim. If I was to play my regular 9 hole course from the red tees on a decent (not great) driving day, both par 3s would be pitching wedge or less, most of the par 4s would either be drivable or call for driver then a sand wedge, and the shorter of the par 5s would be driver - 9 iron to potentially get on in 2. And no, I don't have to hit driver off the tee all the time, but since it's usually my most reliable club, why wouldn't I?

I'm not a good golfer, but it isn't because I'm playing from the wrong tees.

What’s your typical score on that course?

What do you think it would be if you moved up?
 
What’s your typical score on that course?

What do you think it would be if you moved up?

I'm usually around 47-48 on a decent day. If I moved up I don't think it would change a whole lot. Like I said, my biggest issue is a lack of consistency. I can mess up a pitching wedge just as easily as a 6 iron.
 
  • Large tee-box distances tend to segregate men and women into separate golf carts, and limit the time women spend networking with men in carts and waiting to tee off.
Interesting. My manager, a women, asked me ( a man) to play with two reps with one of our clients. Both males. We have both played with them before and we both tried playing off the same tees with them. They are 7 hcps, I'm a 20, she is a 36.

We always make a point of having her in the CFO's cart and I sit with the junior guy. This year They played the blues, I hit the whites, she hit the forward tees. We wanted to enjoy the golf as well as smooze our clients

We had a great relationship strengthening time. We always waited for everyone to tee off and had ample opportunity to chat. We kept up to the folks in front of us and often had to wait for them.

But I can see this happening with any group of multi hcp golfers. Male or female. If we want to make sure females have networking time on the golf course, it needs to be created/made available. It is simple to do. You just have to remove the testosterone.

I have found, golf is a great way to really build a relationship with someone you meet in business. And a great way to determine if someone is a real dick/douche, male or female.
 
The so-called "ladies tees" are for women who are 1) not athletic; 2) and older. The average non-athletic woman who took up golf in her 50s after the kids left and plays once a week with the ladies club at the local golf course drives the ball between 160 and 180 yds. That's the distance they're set up for. Usually they're around 4700 - 5200 yds for the course.

I've played with women who drive the ball 200 - 230 yds. I'm one of these women. These tees are way too short for us. We usually play at the 5600 to 5800 yd set... aka... the senior men's set. I play there so par 4s aren't a driver and lob wedge. Not that it would make any difference since there's a likelihood that I'd chunk the LW or slice the drive. Also 410 yd par 5s become eagle opportunities - so from the senior tees the shortest is 450 which means 3 shots - sometimes 4 depending upon if I screw up.

To be honest, moving up or back a set of tees wouldn't really affect my score. My problem, like most peoples is consistency. But playing different tees does give a different look at the course.
 
Back
Top