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Loft Marketing Hype??

SuperStroke
tnc200 said:
Well I guess my ideal is that at the front end the 3i. Id prefer a club with the strongest loft and longest shaft manageable. My 3i is exactly that, it takes practice if I'm gonna carry it. At the back I dont need the distance. I want a club that blends into my wedge set. I have a couple wedges, my gw gives me a 75 yard beauty I can rely on, 50* same clubline. The pw is 44* 100-110. The largest gap in my set is between the pw and gw. This is where I need less gap. I guess I don't feel the need to make all the irons in a set stronger. Sure the front end but at the back if it's opening distance gaps that doesn't help me. I want loft and accuracy. Ive heard guys say buy another wedge but we only get to carry 14 clubs right. Secondly I'd be buying a wedge to use in a full shot swing. Thats what my iron set is for. Speaking of Irons its time to go to the range. Double balls 7-9 see you soon.
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Im so confused right now. So let me see if I understand this. Longer shafts that are there to create distance are okay despite them being very different 30 years ago (and could also possibly cause gap issues), but stronger lofts in irons are not, because they increase distance and that is not wanted in those clubs? Im really just trying to understand here and am so confused as to which technology increases are acceptable and which ones are not. Let me ask this. If all the lofts were the same as they were 25 years ago, but they made each iron 2 inches longer would that be okay?

In my opinion, I want less of a gap in my longer clubs because they are less versatile in quarter and half swings than I would in my shorter irons where quarter and half swings are far easier to control.
 
May I throw a monkey wrench into the works? Please feel free to ignore this post (though if you do you risk the chance of hurting my feelings).

The scorecard doesn't care if you play the bladiest blade, the cavitiest cavity back, the most jacked up lofted irons, the most traditionally lofted irons, a draw-biased driver, a Gene Nead putter, or a 25 years old Wilson bullseye. The scorecard doesn't care if you swing like Ben Hogan or Mr. Average Golfer. The scorecard only cares how many strokes it takes you to get the ball in the hole.

Isn't that what this game is really about. :)
 
tnc200 said:
Well I guess my ideal is that at the front end the 3i. Id prefer a club with the strongest loft and longest shaft manageable. My 3i is exactly that, it takes practice if I'm gonna carry it.
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Is that not exactly what the Burner's achieve?

At the back I dont need the distance. I want a club that blends into my wedge set. I have a couple wedges, my gw gives me a 75 yard beauty I can rely on, 50* same clubline. The pw is 44* 100-110. The largest gap in my set is between the pw and gw. This is where I need less gap.
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A six degree difference between a lines PW and GW is more than any matched set that I can find doing a quick search. You may want to find a club shop that can strengthen the loft a tad to tighten up the gap.

I guess I don't feel the need to make all the irons in a set stronger. Sure the front end but at the back if it's opening distance gaps that doesn't help me. I want loft and accuracy.
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Plenty of companies offer combo sets either of the CB/Blade or Hybrid/CB variety. Gaps are gaps though if you make the long irons longer without applying the same model to the higher lofted clubs you end up with the gap in the middle and that sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Ive heard guys say buy another wedge but we only get to carry 14 clubs right. Secondly I'd be buying a wedge to use in a full shot swing. Thats what my iron set is for. Speaking of Irons its time to go to the range. Double balls 7-9 see you soon.
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How many wedges do you carry now? What gap would you be trying to fill with another wedge?
 
I am thinking, and isnt an Approach Wedge available between the gap and PW?

TNC,

I mean this in the most polite way possible, but it seems to me that if there is a 25 yard distance gap, its your responsibility to choose a setup that minimizes that gap. Get the wedges bent or something.

JB, sorry for asking about playable loft, I forgot you were working on it. Is Hoeflich writing it?
 
aggro said:
I am thinking, and isnt an Approach Wedge available between the gap and PW?

TNC,

I mean this in the most polite way possible, but it seems to me that if there is a 25 yard distance gap, its your responsibility to choose a setup that minimizes that gap. Get the wedges bent or something.

JB, sorry for asking about playable loft, I forgot you were working on it. Is Hoeflich writing it?
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I could be wrong aggro but I believe approach, gap, and attack wedges are all the same thing.
 
johnnymo said:
I could be wrong aggro but I believe approach, gap, and attack wedges are all the same thing.
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Well, foo. ANYWAY, disregarding my idiocy, buy or bend to a 47-48 degree. That, or buy weaker irons. Hawks list was a good guide.
 
I look at this thread, and I keep looking for a funny looking little man (or two) underneath a bridge.
 
Smallville said:
I look at this thread, and I keep looking for a funny looking little man (or two) underneath a bridge.
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/Aggro has no clue what smally is talking about..,
 
johnnymo said:
Is that not exactly what the Burner's achieve? Whats a Burner?



A six degree difference between a lines PW and GW is more than any matched set that I can find doing a quick search. You may want to find a club shop that can strengthen the loft a tad to tighten up the gap.
wilson ci6


Plenty of companies offer combo sets either of the CB/Blade or Hybrid/CB variety. Gaps are gaps though if you make the long irons longer without applying the same model to the higher lofted clubs you end up with the gap in the middle and that sounds like a recipe for disaster. Fair enough.



How many wedges do you carry now? What gap would you be trying to fill with another wedge?
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My current gap is between my 50* gap and 44* pw. Ive got 2 wilson wedges same clubline 50,and 55. I've also got a pair of clevelands 52 and 56 that i love but I can't manage the gap.
 
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JB said:
Im so confused right now. So let me see if I understand this. Longer shafts that are there to create distance are okay despite them being very different 30 years ago (and could also possibly cause gap issues), but stronger lofts in irons are not, because they increase distance and that is not wanted in those clubs? Im really just trying to understand here and am so confused as to which technology increases are acceptable and which ones are not. Let me ask this. If all the lofts were the same as they were 25 years ago, but they made each iron 2 inches longer would that be okay?

In my opinion, I want less of a gap in my longer clubs because they are less versatile in quarter and half swings than I would in my shorter irons where quarter and half swings are far easier to control.
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tnc200 said:
My current gap is between my 50* gap and 44* pw. Ive got 2 wilson wedges same clubline 50,and 55. I've also got a pair of clevelands 52 and 56 that i love but I can't manage the gap.
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Still hoping someone can answer the question above.

As to your current issue, I am really confused now. Your current PW is 44 degrees and your gap wedge is 50 degrees, but you dont like the 6 degree gap. Why not just bend the wedge? Another option would be to add another wedge, but you said you have too many clubs then.

But here is my question for you. If PW were all at 50 degrees like you prefer, why would that help you with a 52* wedge? There would be virtually no gap at all. And maybe you would not have purchased a 52 in that scenario, but then I would have to ask why you did now? Most people never have this issue because they pick and choose their wedges based on where they have a gap. Hence the reason it is called a Gap Wedge.
 
Flooder said:
Well, I already play a 50* so it may not be too big a deal for me, but I hear you. On the flip side though, if I can now hit a 3 iron 230 yds. (speculation at this point :D) I no longer need the 3 hybrid (210) or the 5 wood (225) opening up a spot for the wedge or allowing me to get a 4 wood that goes 240-245 to close the gap to my 260ish driver.

In the end this may be more important to many (it will be to me). I can have my 50* bent to 48* if necessary or I can take a 3/4 swing with the PW, but before now, I could not do anything if I had a 2nd shot outside 220 yards. It was a mandatory layup. I also had to hit a 4 iron I couldn't hit or a 3 hybrid off many par 3 tees where I will soon be hitting 6 iron or 5 iron. From 150 I was playing a full 7 iron, now it will be a smooth 8 I'm guessing. Those things should change the whole game for me and should more than makeup for the gap 'problem'.
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tnc200 said:
An honest pitching wedge? Just like it sounds, a wedge used for a pitch swing. At least it used to be. Nowadays most of us will use our gaps and sands because we need the loft to be effective with it. Loft the pw carried at one time. <45*=club >45*=wedge. Once again I'll ask "Why did they open the gap?" No one seems to have the answer to that one though. As far as the 460s and hybrids yeah you can go ahead get rid of those JB, I'll be keeping mine though, thanks.
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I think I did answer your question, TNC. IF they "opened a gap" btw pw and gw they more than made up for it by closing down gaps at the other end (as JB said the long clubs are much harder to "take something off of") or perhaps as in my case even eliminating a club from the bag providing even more options.

Now, as to your specific dimemna, I'd use the "double balls" at the range and hit 85-90 yard pitching wedges by using a 3/4 swing until I could do it in my sleep. It's a very easy shot to execute because most golfers find when they shorten the backswing results get more consistent.

Secondarily, something doesn't add up with your #'s. I am by NO MEANS a long hitter. I hit my 45* x22 pw 110 (roughly the same as you). But, my 50* is a consistent 100-105 yards and my 56* 85 yds. Could it be you're playing the gw too far forward adding loft and bleeding distance? If it isn't that and it were me, I'd get that 50* bent to 48*. But, that adds just 6 yards and a 48* wedge should go a lot further than 81 yards, so I'm back to my previous point...
 
JB said:
Let me ask this. If all the lofts were the same as they were 25 years ago, but they made each iron 2 inches longer would that be okay?
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This is only an answer that is meant to be funny.

"If I could only get the ball 2" further I could break 80 much easier." :joy:

I have to get ready for work now and will try to have a more serious answer later.
 
Sorry, a little more humor.

I read in the paper this weekend that my favorite course is going to be closed for renovations. I called the course manager to see what they were going to be doing and she said "With these new iron designs we feel that we need to move the greens back 2" so the course plays the same." :confused2:
 
I have no idea what is going on in this thread. I read the original post and this last page. If a company wants to label a 40* club a PW, they can. If you disagree with that, don't buy the club. There should be no industry standard for lofts unless the USGA says so.

Also JB, I agree with what I think your saying. So I pose a different questions. Isn't club fitting also a bad thing Mr. Ault? I change lie angles and shaft lengths on a whim when buying Ping irons. That is not an industry standard, so is that also a problem?
 
Well I picked the same clubmaker cause I thought same clubline and shafts would match better than an different maker.
JB said:
Still hoping someone can answer the question above.

As to your current issue, I am really confused now. Your current PW is 44 degrees and your gap wedge is 50 degrees, but you dont like the 6 degree gap. Why not just bend the wedge? Another option would be to add another wedge, but you said you have too many clubs then.

But here is my question for you. If PW were all at 50 degrees like you prefer, why would that help you with a 52* wedge? There would be virtually no gap at all. And maybe you would not have purchased a 52 in that scenario, but then I would have to ask why you did now? Most people never have this issue because they pick and choose their wedges based on where they have a gap. Hence the reason it is called a Gap Wedge.
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tnc200 said:
Well I picked the same clubmaker cause I thought same clubline and shafts would match better than an different maker.
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Maybe I am missing something? What does that mean? Do you mean that Cleveland irons and wedges should match? Or Wilson Irons and wedges should match? Or this is an answer to the above question that I asked?

Both of those companies have wedges in multiple lofts to eliminate this problem. They also offer matched wedges to iron sets if someone chooses to go that route.
 
I think what TNC is saying is that by increasing the distances one can hit their irons it creates problems when getting to the short end of the bag. Example my first set of clubs I could manage a 110 PW, but now i reach 135-140, it creates a gap between the set and wedges.

I agree the lofts are getting stronger, but everyone wants more distance and basically improvements in technology allow the average golfer to hit his clubs further. Yes I know hit a PW as far as an old 8 or 9 iron, and that's great because I could never hit an old 2 or 3 iron, but technology allows me to hit a 3 or 4 iron those distances reducing the need for those clubs.

I remember the old set up was D, 3w, 5w , 3i down to PW and SW. Now there is a lesser need for 3w and 5w (some people rather carry a hybrid than a wood). So essentially we're cutting out the hard to hit long irons and farway woods of old with easier to hit irons and hybrids and adding different options in wedges (see multiple lofts and options other than sand wedge only)
 
lcsmrtn said:
I think what TNC is saying is that by increasing the distances one can hit their irons it creates problems when getting to the short end of the bag. Example my first set of clubs I could manage a 110 PW, but now i reach 135-140, it creates a gap between the set and wedges.
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Right, but also with technology, we have more choices (a TON more) in short iron/wedges. more lofts, bending, more brands, more speciality clubs, etc...By getting fit you can essentially eliminate any gaps completely just like before and in turn you can have your cake and eat it too.

Myself, and many like me, find it far easier to work with different shots with short irons in comparison to half and quarter shots with long irons or woods.
 
And I agree 100% with you JB, I would much rather have options in the short game area than the long game since the short game area counts for so much of one's score and as an amateur golfer, I don't have time to develop a great short game based on feel and instinct.
 
No I don't expect my clevelands to match. I had the clevelands before with another set. I got new irons and after seeing I had a gap that was causing me some problems I bought the "matching" wedges in gap and sand. The only lofts offered.
JB said:
Maybe I am missing something? What does that mean? Do you mean that Cleveland irons and wedges should match? Or Wilson Irons and wedges should match? Or this is an answer to the above question that I asked?

Both of those companies have wedges in multiple lofts to eliminate this problem. They also offer matched wedges to iron sets if someone chooses to go that route.
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tnc200 said:
No I don't expect my clevelands to match. I had the clevelands before with another set. I got new irons and after seeing I had a gap that was causing me some problems I bought the "matching" wedges in gap and sand. The only lofts offered.
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I guess I am not going to get an answer to the other question. Oh well I guess.

Still not sure why this is an issue. Hundreds of wedge configurations are available, bending is available, shaft length is available, etc...With todays technology, fitting and configuration is easier than it has ever been. This to me sounds far more like a fitting issue and less like a strong loft issue with each post. But that is just me of course.
 
JB said:
I guess I am not going to get an answer to the other question. Oh well I guess.
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Here is my answer. A company can sturcture their lengths and lofts anyway they want to. I would bet that there is extensive market research. And inorder to eliminate gaps and have a flow from the long irons through the wedges, the lofts are designated.

In short, an OEM can do whatever they want. And if a prospective buyer is not interested in how the set is configured, they can buy something else.
 
JB said:
Right, but also with technology, we have more choices (a TON more) in short iron/wedges. more lofts, bending, more brands, more speciality clubs, etc...By getting fit you can essentially eliminate any gaps completely just like before and in turn you can have your cake and eat it too.

Myself, and many like me, find it far easier to work with different shots with short irons in comparison to half and quarter shots with long irons or woods.
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This is where I am at. I'd like to be taking full swings on my irons till I got to my gap wedge. Avg distance is 15yds between clubs. Close enough for me cause with my irons up to the pw I'll be going for the center or front part of the green. I just club up or down accordingly. Then I'll go into a gw with whatever swing it takes. I've tried to practice the 3/4 and 1/2 shots with the 44pw and have never had very consistent results. However with the gap at 50 I can pull these off.
 
Which question again please? Im not being selective Im just trying to stay on point.
JB said:
I guess I am not going to get an answer to the other question. Oh well I guess.

Still not sure why this is an issue. Hundreds of wedge configurations are available, bending is available, shaft length is available, etc...With todays technology, fitting and configuration is easier than it has ever been. This to me sounds far more like a fitting issue and less like a strong loft issue with each post. But that is just me of course.
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i dont see the problem with stronger lofts.

you have a set of irons, you hit the longest one 180-200 so you get some woods/hybrids to up your longer hitting range.
you hit your PW 100-120 so you get some wedges to increase your shorter hitting range.

if you already have wedges it means you need to get them bent to fit with that shorter hitting range you need with your particular iron set.
thing is i dont see many people complaining that their 4 iron is too long and they need to get a new hybrid as the gaps now overlap. its all about wedges and PW loft increasing making a gap. maybe your next iron set should be 5 iron to GW instead of 4iron to PW? doesnt make any difference to the longer hitting clubs and gives you the same spread of yardages throughout.

then again, i didnt read all of the posts so maybe its been mentioned.. :D
 
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