Rocco Mediate Says Tiger's Problems Are From Coaches
- Thread starter
- Admin
- #27
^^^^^^
THIS!!!
Your not talking about taking some amateur and making them great. You are talking about taking arguably the greatest to ever live and changing his swing.
It does not take ANY tour level pro 10,000 hours to make a swing change. These guys do this all the time and while his is a fairly large overhaul, so was the Haney method and he did not take 3 years off to get that done. Nor to go to Butch.
SW
Grinder
You should've let me know, I know a guy who's great at it. His name is Wagner Krylon.
Anyhow, as bad as this incident was for TV golf ratings, it has been a freaking heyday for golf writers.
MarcH
1-900-Foley-Boys
Interested to see how Tiger's swing looks at the Frys tourney. He was dipping like 8 inches through impact at the PGA, just ugly. Foley's swing method is great once you get it ingrained, but Tiger has a long way to go to get it as good as Mahan's in my opinion.
He'll get it eventually, still plenty of time left in his career.
He'll get it eventually, still plenty of time left in his career.
- Moderator
- #32
Of course it's crazy, which is asinine when amateurs expect to have it down within a few lessons or less. Now is it possible to do it quicker? Absolutely. People pick up on things quicker than others. It still takes an amount of time though to be able to have a level of competency in that skill. Please keep in mind there is a huge gap inbetween mastery and playability. Playability is enough to get by, but you still struggle with being in between swing thoughts. It hasn't moved from a conscious action to subconscious yet. Mastery is something where you don't have to work at it to get right feelings or positions. You have it down in your sleep just as much as you do walking, running, etc.
People are jumping all over Foley and Tiger saying, "why doesn't he have it down yet?!" Well it took Tiger about 1.5-2 years or so for him to click with his first change after April 97. Then it took about 1.5-2 years for the change from Harmon to Haney from 03- late 04 and into 05. Now people are expecting Tiger to be fluid and playable with this swing change, yet it's just recently passed a year. Oh and by the way he was out for four months without being able to touch a club. He said he was at a point where he was feeling pretty comfortable with it at the Masters, and then he hurt himself. To me IMO that means he wasn't struggling with setup, grip, and the fundamental feelings anymore. At this point it was at a level of beginning to trust it. Don't mistake that however for having it mastered, as I think he's still got a long way to go (or a long laundry list as he'd put it). He's still going to have significant fine tuning to be at a major comfort level for himself, but my guess is he was at least close enough to having a stable foundation of correct swing patterns to work with.
People are jumping all over Foley and Tiger saying, "why doesn't he have it down yet?!" Well it took Tiger about 1.5-2 years or so for him to click with his first change after April 97. Then it took about 1.5-2 years for the change from Harmon to Haney from 03- late 04 and into 05. Now people are expecting Tiger to be fluid and playable with this swing change, yet it's just recently passed a year. Oh and by the way he was out for four months without being able to touch a club. He said he was at a point where he was feeling pretty comfortable with it at the Masters, and then he hurt himself. To me IMO that means he wasn't struggling with setup, grip, and the fundamental feelings anymore. At this point it was at a level of beginning to trust it. Don't mistake that however for having it mastered, as I think he's still got a long way to go (or a long laundry list as he'd put it). He's still going to have significant fine tuning to be at a major comfort level for himself, but my guess is he was at least close enough to having a stable foundation of correct swing patterns to work with.
Last edited:
SW
Grinder
Because to me, and from what I gather from others, his swing actually looks worse now than it did at last years PGA. It's a process and a laundry list, but sooner or later you get through the list/process. Tiger looks like a never ending project at this point, add into that his short game collapse and of course people are gonna link his struggles to foley's methodology.
- Thread starter
- Admin
- #35
I dont remember Tiger ever going 2 years and struggling like this. But apparently if it is going to take 10,000 hours for him to learn this swing (to its fullest), we have a couple of more years of being pretty bad then. Surprising considering he himself is saying otherwise. But 10,000 hours is a lot of time and I guess it wont take place for a long long time.
It is funny though to look back at his swing changes and see how soon he won and where it happened. I dont remember him ever falling like this before...Why? Because it didnt happen.
If you believe this is nothing more than him learning the swing and once its down, he is back to the same he was, all the power to you. I dont. I dont believe it takes any tour player 10,000 hours to master a swing because I dont think anybody truly ever masters a swing. I also dont think its anything like starting from scratch because the 18 inches on either side of the ball is known to these guys better than any human being in the world. I didnt come up with that 10,000 hour thing and I personally dont think it applies at any level to anybody on the PGA Tour. Tinkering is existent at every level and even moreso at the highest level. To think a tour player is going to take that many hours off of their career to fix something is incredibly off in my opinion.
It is funny though to look back at his swing changes and see how soon he won and where it happened. I dont remember him ever falling like this before...Why? Because it didnt happen.
If you believe this is nothing more than him learning the swing and once its down, he is back to the same he was, all the power to you. I dont. I dont believe it takes any tour player 10,000 hours to master a swing because I dont think anybody truly ever masters a swing. I also dont think its anything like starting from scratch because the 18 inches on either side of the ball is known to these guys better than any human being in the world. I didnt come up with that 10,000 hour thing and I personally dont think it applies at any level to anybody on the PGA Tour. Tinkering is existent at every level and even moreso at the highest level. To think a tour player is going to take that many hours off of their career to fix something is incredibly off in my opinion.
- Moderator
- #37
If I recall, he won once in 98, and then started to click it into gear in 99. In 04, he won the Match Play. (For both 98 and 04, I'm just using official PGA Tour events. To be fair Woods won a euro event in 98 and the PGA Grand Slam, and then in 04 he won the Target World Challenge and the Dunlop Phoenix over in Japan? Looked all that up on his website) and then clicked it into gear in 05.
He won coming back from knee injuries in 02, early 08 (if you go off of him hurting his knee in winter 07) and then in 09 after ACL replacement. None of those involved swing changes in the middle of coming back from an injury mate.
He won coming back from knee injuries in 02, early 08 (if you go off of him hurting his knee in winter 07) and then in 09 after ACL replacement. None of those involved swing changes in the middle of coming back from an injury mate.
- Thread starter
- Admin
- #38
See I dont think thats it either. I believe he will return. I have said that from the beginning that I think he gets back to winning at some point. However I dont think he gets back to winning with his current coach and swing. I believe he needs a different approach and I dont think its mental at this point.
You honestly dont think he has lost some of that mental toughness? I mean honestly I would think even on a day where his swing isnt 100% with that toughness I have seen from him he would be able to go out and put up big numbers. I guess thats just my opinion, but its tough to know since he doesnt seem to acknowledge either thing as being the reason
- Moderator
- #40
Well for one, he's falling in the world golf rankings as quickly as he is due to its design. The activity of 09 is being removed and all he has is the schedules of 2010 (12) and 2011. He's only had 8 starts in 2011 so far. That's just barely half of what he would have as a minimum schedule like he usually has. If you take the last two years he played full schedules (07, 09) you get 33 combined starts. Well he's at 20 now, and 21 after the Fall Series event he just added. That's still 12 events off, meaning 12 weeks of lost OWGR points with 0 replacement.
I know you didn't come up with the 10,000 hour thing, but fortunately that theory has been around for a very long time and it's not just for golf, it's for the mastery of anything. Google 10,000 hours mastery and you get 2 million results. But again, you don't have to stop every thing you're doing, put in 10k hours, and then come back. You only have to get yourself stable enough to be competant, and then you can go from there. When you were 16, you got your license (or 18, but you get this example) and you were probably an awful driver at first if you look back at it. BUT you were sure as hell a better driver than you were when you were when you were going out for driver's ed or with your parents, etc. Once you had enough competancy to get on the road, you improved enough at a time to where it became second nature. Hell you probably don't remember half the drives home you do because you've done them so many times.
Sounds like Rocco is another person who is enabling Tiger and not making him face the fact that his problems are of his own making. When are people going to wake up and stop defending Tiger???
guga
New member
Interesting reading about tempo... gotta check mine
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
- Staff
- #43
In approximately 9,172 hours.
Definetly agree with you there. Tiger is lacking the grit, toughness and the ability to will the ball into the hole that he has when he was dominant. Tiger doesnt need a new swing coach, he needs a shrink!
- Thread starter
- Admin
- #45
I never said anything about rankings. He is falling in the rankings because his on course play has flat out stunk.
He never fell in the rankings with his previous changes. And he has never played a large schedule, so that is not it either as much as when he is playing his play is average to subpar at best.
He always played a lighter load than just about every single guy on tour, but he won at a clip higher than anybody, so he remained #1.
He is not #1 now, not for playing less events, but for poor play.
Its been just about 2 years since a victory was had and frankly his recent play is the worst we have ever seen from him.
Again, if you believe that is because it is going to take 10,000 hours for him to master his new swing, all the power to you. I can assure you he does not feel that way nor did he, nor does just about anybody else out there. Your analogies dont work in these scenarios because you are using things that are not the same level such as driving at 16 compared to getting better. He was ALREADY the best in the world and arguably ever. Based on your analogy, he should have only gotten better from the moment he started golfing until now regardless of any changes he has made.
You are making it out as if he is starting from scratch and never swung a club before. And while there are major changes being made, that is just not the case.
- Thread starter
- Admin
- #46
HAHAHHAHA. That right there is funny.
c0ncept
SFT
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2011
- Messages
- 8,508
- Reaction score
- 20
- Location
- Renton, WA, United States
- Handicap
- Life
If may take 10,000 hours to learn a swing but only 5 minutes to ruin one.
- Thread starter
- Admin
- #48
One more element that works with these analogies that keep getting thrown around is time. People just do not keep getting better at thigns as time goes on. To take your driving as an example. Experience can add to capabilities, but at some point there is a diminishing return factor. Whether that be, not thinking straight, a screwed up leg, just getting older. All of these things could affect one's ability behind the wheel. The same can be said about the golf course.
- Moderator
- #49
His rankings were going to fall no matter what when you're playing less than the minimum he already did. They take 2 years of play, meaning his wins of 09 are all but gone. Now you're replacing them with 0's for the weeks he wasn't going to play (which is fine, because injured or not he wasn't going to play certain events) but then you're throwing in 12 more extra 0's in the past two years where he would have played. That's going to kill anyone's ranking.
If you'd like, I'll use a different analogy that might be better. The 10k one is the most well known for the mastery of any skill thus why I thought it'd be a known pick. Now let me make this crystal clear, as I thought I had before but obviously not. The 10k one is a standard. I do not mean or think that it's going to take Tiger 5 years to come back. I'm using this illustration of 10,000 hours to do two things: 1. Make it incredibly painfully clear that making a change of any sort takes a lot of time and hard freakin work. 2 Tiger hasn't done the work necessary to even come close to being fully comfortable with this swing yet. So let me change analogies to something that might be a little more clear.
Due to his dedication and the fact it's his full time job, Tiger is able to knock out that time frame significantly quicker than the average person. I'll use his standard of start of change to seeing results. It takes Tiger 1.5-2 years as we've seen from May 97 to 1999, mid 03-2005 to make a change. Tiger started August 2010. That would mean things should have clicked and he'd start putting up Tiger like results as we've all come to expect by as early as February 2012. However Tiger wasn't able to swing a club from May to August due to injury. If all things stay the same, that adds 3 months to Tiger's beginning result change, ie May 2012. To me, that means he's going to probably struggle some more but start showing more signs of improvement till mid 2012. He's been saying since he jumped onto the Foley wagon that it's going to be a process and difficult. Why should this be any different? If I recall, people were saying he should have left Haney for Harmon when Tiger wasn't winning right out the gates and months down the line with the Haney swing either.
- Thread starter
- Admin
- #50
And again I will say, you keep talking how it took 1.5-2 years in the past, yet his play dictates that this is not the same scenario. Can we say he was perfect, of course not. However he won and played well. It never took even a full year to do so I dont believe.
I love the reasons everybody comes up with. I truly do. I have said before he will return, but you dont lose your putting from a swing change. I would love to know why all of the sudden that is gone and it was never affected one iota in his other changes. He never lost that in the past, but perhaps he is just working up towards that 10,000 hours.
I love the reasons everybody comes up with. I truly do. I have said before he will return, but you dont lose your putting from a swing change. I would love to know why all of the sudden that is gone and it was never affected one iota in his other changes. He never lost that in the past, but perhaps he is just working up towards that 10,000 hours.