Questions regarding impact position slightly over shaft plane at address

interlooper

Wishing I was golfing now
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Hey Pro.

I have a few questions regarding the impact position that are more theoretical in nature. You sometimes hear that a golfer should attempt to get their impact position, specifically the shaft, on the same shaft line that they had at address with irons (assuming that they had a good setup position). Yet, when you review many of the swings of the PGA players from the "behind the line view", not many of them actually return the club on the address shaft plane line. Indeed, most of them appear slightly above it. Even more surprising is that many of the players that are said to have "beautiful" swings, come in significantly above the address shaft plane line with irons. For example, Luke Donald appears to come in approximately 8 degrees higher than his address shaft plane; Adam Scott and Ernie Els appear to come in about 5-6 degrees higher than their address shaft plane. Sergio Garcia and Vijay seem to be about the only current PGA players that consistently come back down to the original address shaft plane.

Questions:

With irons, do you know the typical/average degrees that pga players come in over the address shaft plane (i.e. 4 degrees)?

Players that come in much higher appear to have a more pronounced/quicker release of the hands after impact while players with lower hands appear to have a later release that is based more upon their body rotating open rather than releasing the hands. Is that an accurate representation?

Can you achieve more leverage/distance by coming in a bit higher than the address shaft plane?

What are the pros/cons about getting back down to the original shaft plane? Coming down 4-5 degrees higher than the original shaft plane?

Thank you GolfTEC pro!!!
 
Wow! What a great observation and conversation starter you have created here. I will try and answer your questions one at a time to be a little more organized:

1. With irons, do you know the typical/average degrees that pga players come in over the address shaft plane (i.e. 4 degrees)?
In all of our research, we have not come up with that specific measurement. Probably because it is more of an effect at that point than something you can actually control. However, I would think that something around the 4 degree point could be ideal. It would really depend on what your swing dynamics dictate and how you release the club...

2. Players that come in much higher appear to have a more pronounced/quicker release of the hands after impact while players with lower hands appear to have a later release that is based more upon their body rotating open rather than releasing the hands. Is that an accurate representation?
That is a very fair statement there. The more your swing is based on rotation (swinging), the more likely that you will be flatter at the point of contact. The more of a hitter you are, the more likely that you will have a steeper shaft line as you are essentially throwing the club into the ground. As you are rotating, it is very tough to release the club down and vice versa with more hitting motion.

3. Can you achieve more leverage/distance by coming in a bit higher than the address shaft plane?
In my personal opinion, a blend of both would produce the best leverage/distance resulting in roughly 4 degrees above the initial plane. Providing you are sequencing correctly, you should be able to produce a lot more power with rotation but you lose consistency in direction. With a complete hitter motion (very vertical shaft at impact) you can be accurate but will sacrifice power (think putter shaft - no leverage). Some where in the middle is ideal where you can balance both distance and accuracy which is the name of the game.

4. What are the pros/cons about getting back down to the original shaft plane? Coming down 4-5 degrees higher than the original shaft plane?
The above question really covers this question. The key element in all of this is consistency. What do you have the best odds in completing the same way each and every time? What is your body type as well? That will dictate a little of what you can do through your swing and to impact.

Hope this helps provide some clarity into what you are looking at and would love to discuss further if you have any questions or thoughts here. You could really get 100 different answers depending on who you ask...

Robert Gamble, PGA
City Manager/Director of Instruction
GolfTEC Glenwood
 
Very much appreciated, Robert. This is great! If you don't mind, I have a few more theoretical questions interwoven below (in bold).

As I continuously tinker with my swing, I like to understand, conceptually, exactly what is going on. I often only know cause and effect, but don't always know why certain things happen. Thanks for giving me some insight.

I typically come in at impact roughly 6 degrees higher than the shaft address plane. The sequence is typically 8-10 degrees over the shaft plane halfway back in the back swing, and then 10-12 degrees over the shaft plane when I reach the top. Then back down to 6 degrees over the address shaft plane at impact.

I have experimented with trying to get it in the 3-4 degrees range, but when I actually get the hands that extra bit lower, I often find myself getting stuck on the way down (i.e. shaft flattening out and dropping too far behind and underneath). Generally, when players attempt to get lower hands at impact, is the "stuck" position a typical outcome at first? If so, why? Is it because when they try to get that right elbow in the "right hip pocket", they often leave the inside of the right forearm and palm pointing to the sky?

I have noticed that if I stand about 1-2 inches further from the ball at address (but with a bit more bend so that my arms still fall naturally down) it obviously flattens the swing. It also lowers my impact position to about 4-5 degrees over the address shaft plane. Does this happen because the plane is flatter and thus less up and down movement in the swing? Or is it because if you stand further away, your hands are a bit higher at impact already, thus making it appear you are coming in lower at impact? Combination of both?

Seems like when you stand a bit further away from the ball, the shot dispersion pattern widens. Moreover, it would seem that misses would be more unpredictable (i.e. misses both right and left, rather than typically just one side). Is that a fair assessment?


​Thanks again for your awesome expertise!
 
Agree with Robert, pretty cool discussion topic.

When I get home from work, I am going to have to look at some slow-mo video's of my swing, and see what my angles look like.
 
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