Rocco Mediate Says Tiger's Problems Are From Coaches

One more element that works with these analogies that keep getting thrown around is time. People just do not keep getting better at thigns as time goes on. To take your driving as an example. Experience can add to capabilities, but at some point there is a diminishing return factor. Whether that be, not thinking straight, a screwed up leg, just getting older. All of these things could affect one's ability behind the wheel. The same can be said about the golf course.

How don't people get better at things the more they do them if they're doing them correct as to which they were taught? You probably sucked as a driver when you started. By now you're probably a very good driver. Now please keep in mind, I'm assuming you're a good driver, having known you not a lick other than you live in Windermere. For all I know, you average 12 car accidents a year and you're worse than the drivers at the Lake Buena Vista exit from I-4/anyone at the I-Drive/Sand Lake exit. My point is though, you've probably improved your driving skill over time but at the beginning, it was a definite process that you weren't comfortable with. How is this any different?
 
How don't people get better at things the more they do them if they're doing them correct as to which they were taught? You probably sucked as a driver when you started. By now you're probably a very good driver. Now please keep in mind, I'm assuming you're a good driver, having known you not a lick other than you live in Windermere. For all I know, you average 12 car accidents a year and you're worse than the drivers at the Lake Buena Vista exit from I-4/anyone at the I-Drive/Sand Lake exit. My point is though, you've probably improved your driving skill over time but at the beginning, it was a definite process that you weren't comfortable with. How is this any different?

Did you read my post? What I said is that there is a diminishing return factor. Do you think my 103 year old grand mother is a better driver than me? She has certainly been driving longer than me. Things happen. Mental capacity, leg injuries, eyesight, etc...
 
See I dont think thats it either. I believe he will return. I have said that from the beginning that I think he gets back to winning at some point. However I dont think he gets back to winning with his current coach and swing. I believe he needs a different approach and I dont think its mental at this point.

Agree with this. Plus he just looks rusty with every part of his game to me. It looks to me like he is making the kinds of mistakes anyone would make without enough practice time to stay sharp.
 
And again I will say, you keep talking how it took 1.5-2 years in the past, yet his play dictates that this is not the same scenario. Can we say he was perfect, of course not. However he won and played well. It never took even a full year to do so I dont believe.

He started with Foley during the PGA in 2010. Below are eactly one year's finishes. Now I do need to fess up and apologize, I thought Haney and Tiger hooked up in 03 at Bay Hill. It was Bay Hill in 04 according to Google so my bad there. If I go from Bay Hill to his first official win at Torrey in 05, it was 17 events. Tiger's currently at 13 events under Foley. I didn't count The Players of this year as an event since he was done after 9 holes due to injury. The Haney tournaments in 04 were 0 wins, several top 10's, and then your occasional T24, T46.

PGA Championship T28
The Barclays T12
Deutsche Bank Championship T11
BMW Championship T15
World Golf Championships-HSBC Champions T6
Chevron World Challenge P2 (Up to you if you count this. I don't personally just cause it was such a small field but it does show improvement I guess)

2011
Farmers Insurance Open T44
World Golf Championships-Accenture Match Play Championship T33
World Golf Championships-Cadillac Championship T10
Arnold Palmer Invitational presented by MasterCard T24
Masters Tournament T4
World Golf Championships-Bridgestone Invitational T37
PGA Championship CUT
 
Did you read my post? What I said is that there is a diminishing return factor. Do you think my 103 year old grand mother is a better driver than me? She has certainly been driving longer than me. Things happen. Mental capacity, leg injuries, eyesight, etc...

I read it but you're taking the age to a point of dimishing return as well. Did you get better at driving from 16-26? There's 10 years. Hell, did you get better from 16-21? Or even 16-18? Give yourself ample time to get used to change, and see how you improved. Same thing goes with Tiger. He started at the mid-end of 2010 with Foley, and people are shocked that he's not trusting it yet and he's not winning. He's finished, washed up, needs to go back to Butch/Haney/anyone else. Improvement takes time to set in, and he's just barely been with the guy a year.
 
Doing the wrong things for a long time will not make you any better at anything.

THIS!!!!!

Well said....he could go at it for 20,000 and would have mastered a flawed swing. People say well it worked for Mahan and O'Hare (who dumped the midget before he won by the way), but they are not Tiger Woods. The problems with Foleys method is the fact that he tries to do the "one swing fits all" thing and this swing is just not for Tiger. Do I think he will win again.....YES....do I think he will be the most dominant player in the world again.....NO, I am afraid that Tiger is long gone.

:popcorn: Dinner theater...gotta love it :D
 
Based on all of this talk about nothing more than practice makes perfect, there really is no reason for different swing philosophies.
Shouldnt everybody just be using the same swing method and as long as they put in their time, they will master it in time?
Why is anybody missing putts at this point? Why is Tiger Woods putting so horribly bad right now? That has not gone through a swing change. Based on your thoughts on the entire thing, he should be putting better than he ever has.

Or could it be that not every swing coach works for every player and its not just time. That sometimes people dont gel together and the human element is actually part of all of this and not just a mere ratio of time to hard work.

For the record, I have never once said he needs to go back to Butch or Hank.
 
Based on all of this talk about nothing more than practice makes perfect, there really is no reason for different swing philosophies.
Shouldnt everybody just be using the same swing method and as long as they put in their time, they will master it in time?
Why is anybody missing putts at this point? Why is Tiger Woods putting so horribly bad right now? That has not gone through a swing change. Based on your thoughts on the entire thing, he should be putting better than he ever has.

Or could it be that not every swing coach works for every player and its not just time. That sometimes people dont gel together and the human element is actually part of all of this and not just a mere ratio of time to hard work.

Taking away his famous putts or the clutch putts. Wouldn't you say in the tournaments he hasn't won, or came close to winning, his putter let him down? This past masters comes to mind. Remember when we used to say "man he'll knock that one down" but now it's "not this time"
 
:popcorn:
 
Based on all of this talk about nothing more than practice makes perfect, there really is no reason for different swing philosophies.
Shouldnt everybody just be using the same swing method and as long as they put in their time, they will master it in time?
Why is anybody missing putts at this point? Why is Tiger Woods putting so horribly bad right now? That has not gone through a swing change. Based on your thoughts on the entire thing, he should be putting better than he ever has.

Or could it be that not every swing coach works for every player and its not just time. That sometimes people dont gel together and the human element is actually part of all of this and not just a mere ratio of time to hard work.

For the record, I have never once said he needs to go back to Butch or Hank.

Didn't he say this new release has made him on his own accord alter his putting stroke release to match up with this new swing release, but since it's the same as when he was a kid it wasn't a concern? The fact that he's been asked that and he's said, "it's not a concern once I get the swing down I can get back to putting in the hours on the green." I mean you could go down a laundry list of possibilities for the moment. Example: Missing more greens in worse spots, giving yourself tough up and downs where par putts have significant movement in them? I have no idea. I just made that last one up but to be honest I'm sure that's one reason, just not a real significant one.

As for swing philosophies, I disagree. Every teacher thinks there's a best way to swing the club. They all have merit and allow you to play golf at the highest level as we've seen. If it weren't for people thinking outside the box and exploring other ways to swing, we wouldn't have awesome jargon like what Morad, S&T, TGM, rotary swinging, one plane, two plane, etc. teach.
 
As for swing philosophies, I disagree. Every teacher thinks there's a best way to swing the club. They all have merit and allow you to play golf at the highest level as we've seen. If it weren't for people thinking outside the box and exploring other ways to swing, we wouldn't have awesome jargon like what Morad, S&T, TGM, rotary swinging, one plane, two plane, etc. teach.

Of course every teacher thinks their way is the best. I never said anything about that. What I said is that there is no best only best matches. You cannot put a square peg into a round hole. If there is one best method, every single golfer in the world would follow it. As I have said all along, there is a human element in all of this and not just a ratio of hard work to time. Sometimes swing philosophies dont work perfectly for every person. Once in a while, a guy moves to a coach that does not work and it fails. Sometimes a guy walks away from a coach and as soon as he falls into a different groove, he is successful.

Again, if it was nothing but time, every single guy on tour would have the exact same swing and believe in the exact same philosophy.
 
Maybe Rocco should listen to the golf myths podcast, particularly the part about baseball swings. He just spent a lot of time on Golf Central saying no good can ever come from swinging the club around your body.


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Well aware of who he is. Seems from the article he took Roccos comments as a challenge to prove him (Rocco) wrong, Rocco was pretty much spot on with his assessment with the comments about Tiger's new swing. There's commenting and then there is being argumentative, which is what I took away from this piece.
I agree with this. I doubt Elling picked apart Rocco's comments during the interview, thus denying him any chance to reply. If Elling wanted to talk about TW why not call TW or Foley himself?
 
I think everyone is too quick in dismissing this 10,000 hour thing. I believe that Tiger had reached the 10,000 hour mark back a few years ago, clearly winning 33% of tournaments entered and having women throw themselves upon you at every eatery you enter you clearly have mastered all the necessary skillsets required to be the highest paid athlete in the world with all perks that go along with such a position. The unfortunate part is that with the passing of the 10,000 hours of practice mark Tiger has clearly reached the point of diminishing returns and has slid to the bottom much faster than you typical superstar sports hero. Clearly he should have retired in 2009 and he would still be highly paid as a former sports superstar endorsing all sorts of product (I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have had to stoop as low as heat rub from Japan) and the women would still be throwing themselves at him at every eatery he ate at (well maybe the Elin beating him with a 2 iron fiasco would have still happened, but not being in the spotlight of trying to win I believe that would have all gone away much more quickly).
 
It's all about the mental game IMO... That and the bad knee which even when fixed 65 times it is not the same knee he was born with so balance issues etc. will get worse as he ages. Physical injuries suck and serious ones are rarely overcome. Mental issues are even tougher but if Tiger could get his head right, he might could work around the physical stuff for a few more majors.. It will be interesting.
 
I've been harping on the loss of his putting stroke since he started his comeback. He simply cannot putt. He also chips terribly. I would argue that while Tiger always had the ability to hit the unbelievable shot, and other than a few stretches where he was unbelievable, Tiger was never the greatest ball striker on tour. But the guy could get up and down maybe better than anybody ever, especially when in the lead or in contention. He quite simply never gave guys a chance.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. He won't be the first great golfer to lose his putting stroke in his mid-30s. And he won't be the last.

Kevin
 
The only one who doesn't seem to talk about Tiger's swing is Tiger, other than his non-answer answers.
 
Of course every teacher thinks their way is the best. I never said anything about that. What I said is that there is no best only best matches. You cannot put a square peg into a round hole. If there is one best method, every single golfer in the world would follow it. As I have said all along, there is a human element in all of this and not just a ratio of hard work to time. Sometimes swing philosophies dont work perfectly for every person. Once in a while, a guy moves to a coach that does not work and it fails. Sometimes a guy walks away from a coach and as soon as he falls into a different groove, he is successful.

Again, if it was nothing but time, every single guy on tour would have the exact same swing and believe in the exact same philosophy.

I would agree with the philosophies don't work for every person, but you have to give it an opportunity to try and proove itself before you can say it won't work. Short term is going to be different to define, and for me I think it's anywhere from 2-3 years personally. Will it work? It's shown flashes of ability, but then it's shown flashes of failure. I think the worst thing he could do IMO would be to give up and try something else.

As for his putting, my guess is he's just not putting in the hours he used to. If in 09 his ratios were 30% long game, 40% short game, 30% putting, it may be something like 70% long game, 20% short game, 10% putting now. You would think he'd try and keep that part the same just cause he can putt and it not put any strain on his legs and it'd keep his momentum going in tournaments when it's clicking on and off.
 
I've been harping on the loss of his putting stroke since he started his comeback. He simply cannot putt. He also chips terribly. I would argue that while Tiger always had the ability to hit the unbelievable shot, and other than a few stretches where he was unbelievable, Tiger was never the greatest ball striker on tour. But the guy could get up and down maybe better than anybody ever, especially when in the lead or in contention. He quite simply never gave guys a chance.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. He won't be the first great golfer to lose his putting stroke in his mid-30s. And he won't be the last.

Kevin
^ This. Which comes back again to the mental aspect of the game.
 
Interesting thoughts. This is now 2 PGA Tour players that have said the same thing publicly though. He and Bubba Watson both saying similar things. Whether they are right or not, who knows, but interesting.

Make that 2 PGA players and an amateur hacker from Scotland. I actually agree with the sentiment, but I'm not professing to know more than guys who, however misguided they may be, are top coaches with a lot of experience behind them. I'd like to think Rocco isn't doing that either, but the article looks to be pointing itself in that direction. My feeling is that Rocco wanted to come out and say 'what he's doing right now isn't working'.
 
Interesting article, thanks for sharing it. I can't argue the Foley and Haney points, he's on to something. Regular Joes can see it and now some tour pros are talking about it publicly. I don't think it will make Tiger see an error in his ways though.
 
The axiom of 10,000 hours is less about mastery as it is about building a skill to the point of distinction through repetitive relentless work. Malcolm Gladwell uses it as a as way to express the type of effort it takes to be potentially great at something. It doesn't exist in a vacuum as it is built upon other skills. For example dancers learn new moves quickly, and master them in relative short order, because not only do they call upon their years of previous experience, but they also have learned to mimic positions and details of movement.

My issue with Tiger's new swing is Foley's method attempts to get everyone in the same positions through the swing. Tiger at his best was more like an artist painting a course than a golfer playing one. Emotional proficiency over technical perfection, although not to denigrate how incredible Tiger's swing was from a technical standpoint. I certainly hope Tiger goes on another crazy run with this swing because I enjoy seeing history made, especially if it is made with flair. Tiger's singular focus on those technical aspects have taken away his feel and in my experience players with no feel can't help but to have crappy short game.
 
The real question is does Tiger have the same desire to succeed? The greatest teachers in history can't help if you just don't really have your head in it. I don't think a teacher matters or a different swing motion when it comes to tiger. He's just not mentally in the game. That is the sad part.

DSX
 
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