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Jack's attempt at attracting more golfers - bigger cups, faster rounds!

While there's nothing wrong with having an outing to play 12 holes instead of 9 or 18, it doesn't make the game any easier, even with the 8" holes. You still have to get the ball down the fairway and onto the green - and we all know that's not always an easy task. I don't like 5 hour rounds of golf, but even a 3 hour round can be frustrating if you're constantly hitting from deep rough or the trees. If time is the key element, just play 9. What golf course is going to want to have to patrol the course for people who pay for 12 holes but play all 18 ? Are courses going to close up 6 holes and sell the land ? Golf is not an easy game and there's nothing wrong with people bowing out because they can't pick it up.

Business 101 - too many courses and not enough golfers...some courses go out of business. The people who consantly scream for more and more people to take up the game are mostly manufacturers who rely on people buying new clubs to stay in business. I don't know about you guys, but I don't need a new driver every 3 or 4 months or new irons every 6 months or $50 a dozen balls to enjoy the game. The golf business needs to find a plateau where clubs and courses and players can coexist - even if it means Nicklaus doesn't get to add a couple of million to his bank account every year because we don't need more $100 courses right now.

Let the game be the game - teach the people who want to play how to play it right...and play it quickly - encourage them to play the right set of tees for their ability (not their ego) - and we'll all be better off.
 
I'm good the way it is. If you want a shorter round you can play 9 holes.

It's the people playing that cause for delays. Maybe people need to be better educated in rules of play, etiquette, etc. Or maybe golf courses should employ more marshals to keep pace of play.

i know there are some courses that don't clear out brush which causes delays because people spend a long time searching for a ball that just barely trickled in. Around here there are a couple courses where if your ball goes in, even just a little, you might as well forget it. There are also some courses that trim the bottom 4 ft or so of the trees so you can see underneath them and clear out the brush which helps tremendously. I think the responsibility lies with the courses and their maintenence of their grounds as well as the players playing. I don't think the game needs to be changed. the last thing i want to see is larger holes.

just my 2 cents.
 
The hardest part, in my mind, to get people playing is the cost of all the equipment. Get more clubs into people's hands. Having a Walmart set of clubs is fine for getting people interested in the game. But the costs still need to come down. Courses tend to be expensive. Getting more clubs into more hands and courses that are willing to have kids (not teens or young adults) play their course is improtant. Having after school programs take kids to a course and having those kids get free group lessons with loaner clubs and feel welcomed by the game, is really important. In this country, kids are not going to stop playing football or basketball. But getting them to enjoy golf as a lifelong hobby is important. I also think that a lot of courses need to relax dress codes. I hate hearing the golf snobbery. No reason why somebody can't enjoy a round of golf while wearing a t-shirt and cargo shorts.
 
I would love to see the courses around here clean up the brush around the trees. Some of these courses might as well be in the national forest. The only way for me to get to a decent course on a Saturday is to pay 75 bucks. It would help to have more decent public courses as well. And not everyone wants to pay 100 bucks a round. My dad can afford whatever they want to charge, but he refuses to ever pay more than 50 bucks. Now the course I play on Mondays, is packed. Mostly because they start twilight at 3pm and it's 12 bucks if you share a cart. But if you play on Saturday, its 50 for the same thing.
 
It would also help not to force high dollar equipment down new players throats. When I first started, I went to a golf store, and was hounded for 2 hours trying every shiny new driver on the shelf. All of them over 250 each. Finally tried a scratched up cobra l5 with demo etched in the sole. Smashed it 275 according to the simulation. Left with that club for 40 bucks. My point is, when a newbie comes in and they are told they need to spend 1000+ for clubs, they say nevermind. When in reality, they can be on the course for 2-300 and buy that 1000 set when they actually love the sport and decide to stick with it.
 
the_paulo said:
What do you think? I'm usually up for a laugh, but I'm never comfortable when the game is changed to try to make it 'better'. I like golf as it is.
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I tried to get in on it! That would be so much fun, especially at muirfield.
 
lcsmrtn said:
In North America maybe, I'd look at cost being a major factor. The market will eventually saturate. Worldwide, especially Asia the game is growing.
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Being Asian, I have to say that a lot of the stigma of golf comes from it being a "high class" game along with "high stakes" from the gambling side of it. The problem is that they're drawn to the "exclusiveness" of it while it's that same very reason that's killing it in the states. So while the statement that it's growing well in Asia may be true, I'm not certain that's the best long term view of it.

IMO, the high cost of equipment is the main killer. I know I had to use a crummy set of hand-me-downs when I began, and the other issue is the high learning curve.....I couldn't hit the thing with any sense of direction longer than 100yards for months after I began. Of the set of friends that began with me, most gave up within the first few months while the paltry 2-3 who kept plugging away have managed to keep going. But their play is super casual. With me the only one who gravitated to lessons, I'm really the only one out of 7-8 of us that still plays regularly.

I guess another possible issue with this is that unless you're really talented, it's really hard to be good at the game without some form of guidance. Perhaps I'm way below average in skill, but I needed a lot of help to get to where I'm at now.
 
12 holes and bigger cups are not the answer....maybe there could be some "starter courses" like the bunny slope at ski resorts?? Ok stupid idea

If you want to speed up play, mow the damn rough@!!! At my home course you would think we are playing the damn US Open....4 inch rough 2 feet off the fairway:at-wits-end::banghead::angry: You can hit a tee shot, have it land in the fairway and trickle into the rough and never find it!!
 
That's for sure. I see them talk about the US Open rough all the time. Around here we just call that normal.

TripleBogieTim said:
12 holes and bigger cups are not the answer....maybe there could be some "starter courses" like the bunny slope at ski resorts?? Ok stupid idea

If you want to speed up play, mow the damn rough@!!! At my home course you would think we are playing the damn US Open....4 inch rough 2 feet off the fairway:at-wits-end::banghead::angry: You can hit a tee shot, have it land in the fairway and trickle into the rough and never find it!!
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Agree 100% on the rough, around here you can miss a green by 6 feet and never find it - it is ridiculous.
 
Hawk said:
That's for sure. I see them talk about the US Open rough all the time. Around here we just call that normal.
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Yep, here too...stand in the rough and can't see the tops of your shoes and you are less that 24 inches from the fairway.....guys spend forever looking for balls that should be in the intermediate cut!!!

Nothing more frustrating than to hit a decent tee shot that hits the fairway and you drive up to where it should be and NOTHING!! MOW THE ROUGH!!

That's it, Im hijacking the friggin mower this weekend and doing it myself!! Somebody gonna bail me outa jail :D
 
Hawk said:
I truly think course design, cost, and people are the problem more than anything.

Courses that are too hard or encourage people to waste time looking for their ball since every offline shot is in the woods, expensive green fees and equipment, and inconsiderate/stuck up people are far worse than the difficulty of putting the ball in the hole.
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Hawk you are 100% correct. I couldnt agree more in fact. Some of these courses are ridiculous.
 
... i am talking about the UK here, no idea what it is like elsewhere, but the main issues are cost, time involved and most annoying for me is the old snotty mentality of many old time golfers.
It has to be realised that we have many more choices of what to do with our time these days... and many more bills to pay! So a shorter version of golf that is less expensive is idea, but i would prefer to just see 9 hole comps and leave the actual golf alone. As for my last point, i am 46 soon so no spring chicken but i never ever tuck a shirt into my trousers or jeans. That is for uncles and grandfathers who remember the war!!! Most golf shirts are actually tailored at the bottom and have logo's so they are meant to be worn out side the trousers, and it is much cooler (temperature wise) in the summer.
The busiest courses around here are the cheap, but good quality 9 hole courses that don't adhere to a strict dress code... and it attracts families and people popping in after work as it only has to take up an hour or two at the most. Sensible cutting of the rough means you don't lose heart when you miss the fairway by 6 inches.
 
Overly thick rough is a big problem. Unless an important tournament is being hosted (club championship or bigger regional/national) the rough should never be more than a couple of inches deep at most. For most amateurs the loss of spin from the rough is what really matters, why complicate things and make all rounds take more time by having super deep rough that requires hunting every hole?

It also seems that a lot of courses are either simple and boring or designed with a US Open in mind. Why do all courses have to be hard or overly easy? There needs to be a happy medium in more places. They exist, but they seem rare. All the "nicer" courses seem to be too hard for the average hacker but most of the easy courses are dog tracks in poor condition and no character.

There should also be separate rules for Pros and Joes. Why do we all need to still be regulated according to rules designed to make life tougher on Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson? If the USGA/ R&A really want to think out of the box they'd take the sticks out of their collective arses and make the rules easier for the average golfer. I'm fine with strict rules for pros and high end tournaments, but the recreational golf world, which is the bread and butter of courses and equipment, needs a looser set of rules on play and equipment to make the game easier and more enjoyable to the average players.

My two worthless cents.
 
Hanks said:
Id rather see shorter courses to help scoring and speed of play
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thats an easy fix though. play tees that are closer. i would play in this in a heartbeat. just for fun and thats what it sounds like he is trying to do. as for everyday, i like being challenged on the course makes me feel better when i actually do hit a good shot or drain a long putt. as for the time i love playing fast i finish 18 in 2 1/2 if theres no one in front of me. problem with the time penalty is if the group in front of you is slow you are gonna get pentalized also.
 
dont think they should change a thing, if they want to have little "putt putt" courses for these then fine but dont change normal courses
 
I like it the way it is now, but we are the fans of the original game.

Moving up tees would slow rounds to a crawl. People trying to go for it on every par 4 and 5.

You've taken a 3 shot hole and made it a maybe 2 shot hole. Duff the second shot way right, third into the greenside bunker, 4th blade over the green. 5 on and 3 putts. All because some jackass has hit the ball far once before and was trying to break 100 with eagles on every par 5.

It's alot more of an elaborate problem than courses being to long, or it being too expensive or whatever.

It takes too long and the game is too hard. Plain and simple. Jack has found ways to combat that. He's trying, which is alot more than others are doing.
 
they should make courses that you pay for how ever long your round is so people would play faster to pay less money. of course running into a slow group would cost you more money and i wouldn't play with half of the people i play with now lol
 
r2wtrials said:
It has to be realised that we have many more choices of what to do with our time these days... and many more bills to pay!
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Yep, golf in the last 10 years or so has seen a whole leisure industry pop up to compete. Now there are so many family-friendly fitness clubs for instance, offering memberships and entertainment for the whole family. Golf clubs now have to compete with this, and I see round about here, every club is struggling to attract new members. That's a bigger argument about the kind of people running private clubs now though, I guess.

Thainer said:
Moving up tees would slow rounds to a crawl. People trying to go for it on every par 4 and 5.
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Excellent point Thain. Never really considered that. I know everyone is out there to play, but hackers standing on the tee waiting for the green to clear, just in case they suddenly learn to drive it 320 during the wait, really annoys me!
 
Hawk said:
I truly think course design, cost, and people are the problem more than anything.

Courses that are too hard or encourage people to waste time looking for their ball since every offline shot is in the woods, expensive green fees and equipment, and inconsiderate/stuck up people are far worse than the difficulty of putting the ball in the hole.
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+1000 brother! If you want more people to play golf make the equipment more affordable. I love golf and pay it because I like current stuff but its not easy keeping up. Golf is a very expensive sport and that's why play is down in a struggling economy, not the size of the hole.
 
I think that course owners / USGA should explore options to increase participants in golf, but don't think enlarging the hole or having 12-hole courses is the way to go to do that (just play 9-holes if time is a factor). The reason people don't play isn't because it's too hard, it's because it's too expensive and they don't take the time to learn the game. If you want to make a course easier, then widen fairway's, create closer tee-boxes and mow down the rough on fairway's etc. I think cost is a leading factor to those who want to explore the game to see if they like it. It costs a lot to rent clubs at local courses near me plus the green fee's on top of it. I compare it to the down-hill ski industry; how many people have all of their own gear vs rent for a minimal fee when they go? If you had to have your own skis, boots etc in order to go learn, then few would bother to learn unless you grow up with it. Also, I think it was a fantastic program when the PGA Professionals did the 1 free lesson program last year and would like to see more programs like that where people can learn the fundamentals without the cost. As golfers, we all on here should be trying to grow and expose people to the game we all love. Most people have learned at some point on hand-me-down equipment, I know I did. I bet most people on here have extra clubs laying around that we could give to someone interested in learning the game. If we want the game to grow, then we have to get people out on the course without the high cost. Until people play the game for themselves, they will always have the same perceptions about the game and those who play it.
 
Jack should call this something else because it is not golf:poop:
 
I like his concern for the slide in popularity but I don't like this strategy. You'll turn away your true die-hards. I am not sure there is room for two types of courses in most areas. Small towns have one course and it's 20 minutes ot the next. It would be too hard to decide what type of course you will be - simple 12 hole course with huge cups or a traditional 18 with "regulation" 4.25" cups. There has to be a better way to increase populartity without sacraficing tradition. I think cost is a bigger deterrant than time for the average beginner golfer.
 
IMHO there are two problems with current state of things:
1. The prices for tee times are too high. That turns off a lot of people.
2. There is not enough executive courses for beginners. Executive I mean short. Really short. I started to play in Orange county, CA and I was blessed by the fact that there is a couple of really short executive courses that can even have lights on them to play when it is dark! One of them is in Lake Forest 1900 yards 9 holes and it was open until 10 pm! You can definitely find some time to go to practice and play nine after work. Now here in CT it was difficult to find a driving range with lights. Forget about the courses.

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