HBO Future of golf!

Is it possible that golf grew unsustainably during boom years, like housing and populations in the Southwest? Now it simply has to retract?

I can't see golf becoming bowling, or basketball...it will always be hard enough and time consuming enough and expensive enough to keep participation down.
 
I've never played it and I can speak to the pace of play. There is no reason for rounds over 4:30

By the courses standard (thanks to JB for correcting me on that) over 4:30 is not acceptable for 18 holes - But up to 4:30 is.

Again, until you've played it...
 
I'm going to be a touch glib. Have you ever played the course I'm speaking of? If not, how can you have an opinion on its recommended pace of play.

You were proven wrong, it's 430, I said earlier for the toughest courses 430 is more understandable. 5 hours is absurd.
 
You were proven wrong, it's 430, I said earlier for the toughest courses 430 is more understandable. 5 hours is absurd.

I was wrong. I misremembered. Not disputing that.
 
I'm going to be a touch glib. Have you ever played the course I'm speaking of? If not, how can you have an opinion on its recommended pace of play.

If you knew the courses Wake was referring to, you would understand. It is not strange in this area to have multiple holes on any course with quarter and half mile drives between holes and water on every single hole.

This does not cause slow play. Entitled slow players cause slow play. If one can play at Bandon Dunes in less time and walk, there is NO need to be longer at this place...guaranteed!
 
If you knew the courses Wake was referring to, you would understand. It is not strange in this area to have multiple holes on any course with quarter and half mile drives between holes and water on every single hole.

This does not cause slow play. Entitled slow players cause slow play. If one can play at Bandon Dunes in less time and walk, there is NO need to be longer at this place...guaranteed!

I agree about the slow golfers being slow.

My question is still, who gets to decide what is an acceptable pace? My opinion is that it is up to the course to decide, not the fastest foursome.
 
I agree about the slow golfers being slow.

My question is still, who gets to decide what is an acceptable pace? My opinion is that it is up to the course to decide, not the fastest foursome.

It is up to the course, but if they wont enforce it, they cannot expect people that are behind the slow golfers to just say "gee, thanks for letting me play here". If the course wants to setup a rule, they need to enforce it. If they wont, they need to expect the fall out.
 
It is up to the course, but if they wont enforce it, they cannot expect people that are behind the slow golfers to just say "gee, thanks for letting me play here". If the course wants to setup a rule, they need to enforce it. If they wont, they need to expect the fall out.

100% on the same page.

Timberstone does enforce it. The Highlands of Elgin enforces theirs.

If the course doesn't enforce their pace rules, then the market will decide.
 
Acceptable pace is somewhat tough to determine but sub 4 hour rounds should be easily attainable, if 4 golfers go out and all them shoot 100, and they all took exactly 30 seconds at each ball it would be 3 hours and 20 minutes leaving 40 minutes of cart or walking time which seems like plenty of time to me, especially if your talking solid ready golf where maybe the first guy up uses his 30 seconds but the next player should be swinging after that ball is in flight. Ready Golf needs to be spread, it seems ad if you watch some groups and the whole stops to watch each player every shot be for the world can turn again
 
I think dropping cost would be huge... if you talk to a non-golfer... alot of the time, they do not want to start playing because it is too expensive.
 
I think dropping cost would be huge... if you talk to a non-golfer... alot of the time, they do not want to start playing because it is too expensive.

Goes back to a comment I made about course expectations. Tightly mowed fairways and fast greens are expensive.
 
One more thing to point out, the cost of equipment that people are discussing being too high, is the same price as it was during the boom and years prior.
 
Frankly that is no worse than most now since people are so slow they changed pace from 4 hours to 4:30 in most areas.

Like I said, tons of driving at this course. It's over a mile from #9 green to #10 tee. Just time consuming. Fastest I've ever played solo was 3.25 hours.
 
One more thing to point out, the cost of equipment that people are discussing being too high, is the same price as it was during the boom and years prior.

Not to mention some starter sets can be had brand new for less than $300
 
One more thing to point out, the cost of equipment that people are discussing being too high, is the same price as it was during the boom and years prior.


Yes but during the 90's and early 2000's boom they had zero problem getting those prices. As popularity fades they need to adjust the cost to go with it. Thing's don't always need to get more expensive, look at computers or anything electronic really, over time costs usually come down in golf it stayed the same. Now I'm not saying this is an exact and everything has come down in price but you get the idea.
 
Yes but during the 90's and early 2000's boom they had zero problem getting those prices. As popularity fades they need to adjust the cost to go with it. Thing's don't always need to get more expensive, look at computers or anything electronic really, over time costs usually come down in golf it stayed the same. Now I'm not saying this is an exact and everything has come down in price but you get the idea.

I will say most things dont come down in cost.
There might be more options (computers is a good case), but the costs dont come down from the popular periods.
Now if you compare something from creation that might be a different story (see laptops).
More choices equal lower costs and we have seen that.

In the 90s the cost of drivers is the same as it is now (generally speaking).
The cost of irons is the same as it is now (generally speaking).

Show me another market like that.
 
HBO Future of golf!

I don't think it's cost of equipment at all. Anyone who wants to play can find used clubs, or "Dad's hand-me-downs".

Cost of a round may be an issue, but again, golf will never be basketball and bowling.

I think time is the biggest obstacle. Not just time per round. If you want to improve, you have to practice, take an occasional lesson...ideally play more than once per week.

How much time does that take?
-practice: 2 hours/week
-play once: 5 hours/week

Add in some travel time back and fourth and you're committing basically a workday to the sport just to play once.

Adding to that time demand ... make a regular tee time that you can plan around unlikely. Around me it's hard to get an early tee time which leaves you with late rounds with the slowest players. Work it into your family's plans if you have one and golf just gets difficult to fit in.

Then last add difficulty of practice. Most ranges are mediocre, all mats, have no practice green, traps or chipping area.

Depends somewhat on where you live, but If you aren't a member of a facility, golf is tough to get good at. Then it all loops around to how much time and money you spend to hack around.

I'd say that it takes work for most to get truly good at any sport, but golf is especially challenging. Putting in your living room just doesn't cut it like shooting baskets in your driveway can.
 
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I have to agree with Speed. I believe that it is the commitment factor. There are not that many people that can commit to the amount of time needed to play decent golf. If one isn't playing decent golf (say sub 95), I don't believe that person would spend the money on equipment, rounds, carts, practice, lessons, etc.

I also agree with P.O.P. being skewed. Faster is great in concept, but people have to start somewhere. I think keeping a relatively fast pace at courses where beginner golfers aren't really going to venture is a great idea, but the local munies....really, is a 4.5 hour round unexpected?... Again, subjective.

I like the concept of earlier involvement, ie First Tee, etc. Institute ettiquette and basic skills at a younger age.

Price...I don't think that this is really a factor. I have seen way too many people buying driver after driver; putter after putter for this to even be a factor. People are going to pay for hobbies, period.
 
I've had rounds on my course where we didn't wait more than once or twice and it was still a 4:30 round.

That being said, what sort of outreach is there that helps people to know how to play faster? All that is really said is to play X:XX fast. Why not have an employee spend 5-10 min before tee off explaining faster play techniques?

With slow golf, its like bad tippers. They either don't know or don't care, so why wouldn't courses have a short pace of play certification seminar? Keep a record of completion and then you ll know who doesn't care and who doesn't know. It may even draw more business if people know that the course cares too.
 
I've had rounds on my course where we didn't wait more than once or twice and it was still a 4:30 round.

That being said, what sort of outreach is there that helps people to know how to play faster? All that is really said is to play X:XX fast. Why not have an employee spend 5-10 min before tee off explaining faster play techniques?

With slow golf, its like bad tippers. They either don't know or don't care, so why wouldn't courses have a short pace of play certification seminar? Keep a record of completion and then you ll know who doesn't care and who doesn't know. It may even draw more business if people know that the course cares too.

Because it will lead to less people coming out. Easier to deal with money first and then complaint then it is to deal with nobody coming. Its the same reason about pitch marks and divots. People know the right thing that are out there. They dont care.

Its just as simple as this one line. Nobody thinks they are slow.
Then you watch them walk around in circles on the green, (knowing full well they cant read things from the other side), take 9 practice swings, knowing the full swing will still be different. And yet blame others for being slow.

Give you an example. Cart path only. I watched guy after guy walk out to his ball with a laser. Then walk back and get clubs. Then walk back to ball. Then walk back to cart. You would have thought we were speaking Russian to them explaining to take extra clubs and then laser and shoot.

People do not think they are slow.
 
Because it will lead to less people coming out. Easier to deal with money first and then complaint then it is to deal with nobody coming. Its the same reason about pitch marks and divots. People know the right thing that are out there. They dont care.

Its just as simple as this one line. Nobody thinks they are slow.
Then you watch them walk around in circles on the green, (knowing full well they cant read things from the other side), take 9 practice swings, knowing the full swing will still be different. And yet blame others for being slow.

Give you an example. Cart path only. I watched guy after guy walk out to his ball with a laser. Then walk back and get clubs. Then walk back to ball. Then walk back to cart. You would have thought we were speaking Russian to them explaining to take extra clubs and then laser and shoot.

People do not think they are slow.


I just had this debate with one of my regulars. It took us 3.75 hours to play 18. Not horrible but slower than I think a twosome needs to take with nobody in the way. I explained it was likely out last round as I like to play faster and rounds with him were far slower than rounds with other regulars. He said he wasn't slow and didn't need to speed up. He said I need to slow down. He said we just go at life at a different pace and said he couldn't even keep up me in the clubhouse before we took off. He just wrote it off to us being different. Since then two others have complained about his pace and his made huge strides and is very conscious about what he is doing and the time he is taking. I enjoy our rounds now.
 
The irony is that GolfNow did not become popular because of discounts. It became popular because people are lazy and did not want to make calls to courses to see about openings and find out a cost. Instead they can go to a single website and find all the courses at once. Most of the golfers that use the program have no idea what the rates are regularly, if there is a discount, etc.

I would not call it lazy, I would call it being efficient. Sheesh, what an insult to throw out.
 
I just had this debate with one of my regulars. It took us 3.75 hours to play 18. Not horrible but slower than I think a twosome needs to take with nobody in the way. I explained it was likely out last round as I like to play faster and rounds with him were far slower than rounds with other regulars. He said he wasn't slow and didn't need to speed up. He said I need to slow down. He said we just go at life at a different pace and said he couldn't even keep up me in the clubhouse before we took off. He just wrote it off to us being different. Since then two others have complained about his pace and his made huge strides and is very conscious about what he is doing and the time he is taking. I enjoy our rounds now.

So as you are/were playing with him, are there specific actions and mannerisms that he had that made him play slower -- or did you just simply get the end of the round and check the clock only to realize the round took 3.75 hours to complete?

I liken the element of slow play to how a baseball pitcher goes about making a pitch or a QB checking the coverage before having the ball hiked to him. If it takes them a couple seconds longer to get prepared and that results in a better pitch / pass / or in the case of golf, a better shot, why is it such a big deal? Now if any of those players walked around in circles, checked their shoe laces and gloves a coupe times, adjusted their equipment and then initiated their action...it would be distracting and an issue worth addressing.

85 shots x 5 seconds longer than normal = 425 extra seconds / 60 (seconds in a minute) = 7.08 extra minutes per round...is that REALLY that bad??

I guess what I'm getting at is, is there something he is doing that is totally unnecessary and if so, did you ask about it or point it out to him?
 
Because it will lead to less people coming out. Easier to deal with money first and then complaint then it is to deal with nobody coming. Its the same reason about pitch marks and divots. People know the right thing that are out there. They dont care.

Its just as simple as this one line. Nobody thinks they are slow.
Then you watch them walk around in circles on the green, (knowing full well they cant read things from the other side), take 9 practice swings, knowing the full swing will still be different. And yet blame others for being slow.

Give you an example. Cart path only. I watched guy after guy walk out to his ball with a laser. Then walk back and get clubs. Then walk back to ball. Then walk back to cart. You would have thought we were speaking Russian to them explaining to take extra clubs and then laser and shoot.

People do not think they are slow.

This is all true. But from a business perspective, isnt that putting the cart before the horse? If the course has a rep for being an excellent track that actively promotes fast play, wouldn't that be a feather in their cap? Somebody has to set the trend, and setting trends is about taking risks. But if nobody is willing take a first step, how will anything change? Slow play will just continue to be a reality of the game.

As in tgtt's anecdote, how would that guy have improved if the specific point wasn't made? I think all courses should take a more active role to improve pace of play. After all, isn't a better product better for business?
 
As in tgtt's anecdote, how would that guy have improved if the specific point wasn't made? I think all courses should take a more active role to improve pace of play. After all, isn't a better product better for business?

I wish they would but most i have played don't really do any thing i don't think i have seen a marshall in months and never at my home course
 
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