Swing thought question specific to the driver/woods

-CRW- said:

http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2011/08/monday-swing-analysis-scott-st.html

This is another bigger or less "wiry" guy on tour that has the big hunch in his back like me during the swing. I was watching him on the Hyundai Tournament of Champions today and saw an opportunity to show others that a hunch may be natural posture for some and not relevant to making a good or bad swing.

Click to expand...

All due respect, but you should not use tour players as your frame of reference. It's a big mistakes and can compound issues your own swing.

Correct what is broken, have fun and play some golf. Honestly, I would sit your pro.down and explain what you want and when you expect to achieve it. This give him a time frame and hopefully more focus.

JDax said:

This thread has been great.... I'm no swing expert by any means, and I also work with a coach. My question would be have you had a playing lesson? The reason I ask is that if set-up and alignment is a culprit, then your coach showing you correct way on the course will help with visualizing what to do when your coach isn't around. I know that my last playing lesson helped me. Just a thought. Also when, I've had problem with missing way right with the driver, I have switched to a ten finger grip on the driver in the middle of the round that seems to help (but unlike others here, I have no idea why it helped).


Dax

Click to expand...

I've had one and it was with this current coach. We spent about 2 hours and played less than 9 holes. It was more to see where I failed most often and it was without a doubt the tee game. So it's sort of been our focus over the past 6 lessons or so. But, we haven't been doing blocked practice or really focusing on alignment at set up. Instead he would tweak things and that could include shoulder alignment and I would to where I was hitting great tee shots on the range, but then next round or range session I would lose what I had, as if starting from scratch again.

Tadashi70 said:

All due respect, but you should not use tour players as your frame of reference. It's a big mistakes and can compound issues your own swing.

Correct what is broken, have fun and play some golf. Honestly, I would sit your pro.down and explain what you want and when you expect to achieve it. This give him a time frame and hopefully more focus.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I sent him your comments and he agreed that the open shoulders are a big piece of the problem. He also said getting the weight more forward helps a lot too. They are things he's talked about before, but we've never really come up with a way for me to repeat the right parts of the set up. We are going to make an alignment station and mark my alignment rods so that my feet and ball position can be repeated with some level of accuracy.

-CRW- said:

I've had one and it was with this current coach. We spent about 2 hours and played less than 9 holes. It was more to see where I failed most often and it was without a doubt the tee game. So it's sort of been our focus over the past 6 lessons or so. But, we haven't been doing blocked practice or really focusing on alignment at set up. Instead he would tweak things and that could include shoulder alignment and I would to where I was hitting great tee shots on the range, but then next round or range session I would lose what I had, as if starting from scratch again.

Click to expand...

I started taking lessons this past year, and I realize different teachers have different methods, but my coach will not move on to other swing elements until I have down what he taught me before.

Example: The first thing that he correct was my posture, and lower body movement (originally I had way too much movement with the left knee flying in). We didn't move on until I was able to correct this, once I mastered that then we moved on.

The cool thing is that my coach knows that I've read everything I can get my hands on about Hogan's swing and often relates what he is trying to teach me back to something I've read over and over in Hogan's 5 Lessons.

Good luck with your journey to better....


Dax

-CRW- said:

Yeah, I sent him your comments and he agreed that the open shoulders are a big piece of the problem. He also said getting the weight more forward helps a lot too. They are things he's talked about before, but we've never really come up with a way for me to repeat the right parts of the set up. We are going to make an alignment station and mark my alignment rods so that my feet and ball position can be repeated with some level of accuracy.

Click to expand...

I've had a similar issue in the past with not shifting weight and it causes me a world of problems with having open shoulders and an open face. Every now and then I'll hit a shot and feel that I haven't made the move to my left side. A couple of drills that I do to make sure I'm shifting weight are:
1) Starting with my left heel off the ground about an inch and making a full back swing. Then I make my normal transition into the down swing and imagine that I'm stepping on the clutch and move the weight to my left side. I always try focus on NOT pushing off of my right foot because my instructor has told me it leads me to open my shoulders since I'm using more eighth side energy to move through the ball. I usually do this at about 60% effort.

2) Step Through the Shot- This is a drill my instructor showed me from a Justin Rose range video. He has me take swings without a ball to start. At 60% I'll take a swing and step through the swing with my right foot. It's very similar to how you would throw a ball (if you're right handed). I'll then transition into hitting shots and not really focusing on where the ball goes, but making sure the right side follows through. He said the JR struggles with not shifting weight too

As far as what to think when you step up to a driver or 3w, I try to think only about my take away or the first 12" of my swing. Usually if I can get past that point I'm in good shape. However, if I get too far inside I start spraying the ball every which way. Another thought I'll try to have is to swing easy. I've found that with my driver I feel like I have to swing harder to get the club around my body. "Free and easy" is the last thought I try to have before I swing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

UVaWahoo said:

Personally, I just tell myself, just swing the club and let the ball get in the way.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Every time I've hit balls consistently well, this is what I'm doing, but I didn't have a simple way to tell myself that.

Every time I try to hit the ball, things go off the rails. When I set up properly and just try to take a swing, things go much better for me.

Just an update I've been working on the suggested tips and am still seeing about the same results. I have used just an alignment rod on the ground to ensure my shoulders are square to the target line, but it seems to make little to no difference.

Moving the ball back has helped eliminate most of the push-fades because it's minimizing my heel shots. It also seems to have eliminated the occasional weak straight-fades and pull-fades (though I rarely see those misses).

The biggest thing that seems to help is watching the ball and making sure I see my lead shoulder behind it before starting my downswing to make sure I'm behind the ball. BUT, I'm still hitting push shots when I do this, but they just are less to the right. The only way I'm getting the ball to turn left is by trying the "back hand the ball" thought or turning my lead hand inward and downward on the down swing. But that introduces hooks, low weak duck hooks, and topped pulled shots from shutting down/hooding the club face too much before impact.

I tried my coaches Fujikura 7.2 VC in X and had the same misses as my Fujikura 8.3 TS in X. The only real difference I saw where the good shots I hit were 10+ yards longer. But his shaft is stock length (1.5" longer than mine), and roughly 10 grams lighter than mine. I have lighter aftermarket weights for my SLDR heads and am going to try switching from the stock 20 gram to a single aftermarket 10 gram to see if that helps my close the face more naturally. I also ordered a 7.3 TS in Stiff to see if flex will make a difference for me. It was $65 used off ebay, so it's not to much of an investment. If it's a waste of time it should be easy to sell in either my 460 or 430 SLDR heads (easier to sell than the 8.3 in x for sure).

Overall, I'd say I'm still not hitting playable shots with the driver more than 50%-75% of the time (depending on the day). I would be happy with keeping it playable (not necessarily in the fairway) 80% of the time, and to be able to do so consistently and or without a ton of thought to make the needed swing.

-CRW- said:

Overall, I'd say I'm still not hitting playable shots with the driver more than 50%-75% of the time (depending on the day). I would be happy with keeping it playable (not necessarily in the fairway) 80% of the time, and to be able to do so consistently and or without a ton of thought to make the needed swing.

Click to expand...

Maybe this is where part of the problem lies? To much thinking which is causing tension in your muscles and sub-consciously messing with your head leading you to doubt your swing.

This is my biggest problem when I start thinking Im topping, slicing, chunking. If I just set up relax and swing things are 100% better. I played a round a week or 2 ago and the front 9 my head was full of thoughts do this, am I set up here are my shoulders doing this, is my wrist feeling right etc etc and hit some of the worst shots for a long time. By time we started the back 9 I'd given up thinking, just picked my line aimed for a spot of grass I'd like to see my ball land in the general area of and just swung the clubs. Shot 41 which is my lowest 9 holes to date. Yesterday I played and started thinking and couldn't hit a darn thing.

To many thoughts for me mess me up. Now Im trying to pick a spot set up relaxed and just swing it.

garethw said:

Maybe this is where part of the problem lies? Too much thinking which is causing tension in your muscles and sub-consciously messing with your head leading you to doubt your swing.

This is my biggest problem when I start thinking Im topping, slicing, chunking. If I just set up relax and swing things are 100% better. I played a round a week or 2 ago and the front 9 my head was full of thoughts do this, am I set up here are my shoulders doing this, is my wrist feeling right etc etc and hit some of the worst shots for a long time. By time we started the back 9 I'd given up thinking, just picked my line aimed for a spot of grass I'd like to see my ball land in the general area of and just swung the clubs. Shot 41 which is my lowest 9 holes to date. Yesterday I played and started thinking and couldn't hit a darn thing.

To many thoughts for me mess me up. Now Im trying to pick a spot set up relaxed and just swing it.

Click to expand...

Yes, I've been following this thread since the beginning, and I can't help but think there's way too much going on in CRW's head during the swing.

I remember when I was really struggling with golf, I spent so much time on the range trying to figure out how to hit my driver with some semblance of consistency. I would get so bogged down with swing thoughts, and when I'd finally get it straightened out on the range, I'd completely fall apart when playing for real.

One day, a coyote was walking very slowly across the back of the range at the 500-Club in Phoenix. For the heck of it, I tried to hit driver at him and all of a sudden I was hitting such pure shots right at him! It suddenly dawned on me to just swing to a target rather than get lost in technical swing thoughts! I never forgot that lesson, and to this day, when things are going awry, I'll simply put the swing thoughts (demons I call them) away and just simply swing to my target.

-CRW- said:

I would be happy with keeping it playable (not necessarily in the fairway) 80% of the time, and to be able to do so consistently and or without a ton of thought to make the needed swing.

Click to expand...

You'd be doing better than the pros then.

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.102.html

So after reading through this whole thread, here's what I see as the problem:

1. You have unrealistic expectations from yourself.
2. You are very focused on details instead of fundamentals.
3. You don't take criticism well.

Brutal but honest truth. Most of the feedback you've answered with either "no that's not my problem" or "what you think you saw isn't what happened". In all 8 pages, this is the thing that stood out to me:

-CRW- said:

And we have discussed the fundamentals, but my fundamentals vary from swing to swing.

Click to expand...

If you take a club testing robot and set it up differently every time, it's going to spray balls all over the place. A human is even worse, because if your setup is different from swing to swing you're always having to think about hitting the ball. If you don't set up the same way every time, you can't trust your swing to go the same direction every time. If you can't trust your swing to go the same direction every time, you end up having to do something different every swing. If you're doing something different every swing, it can be tough for any coach to fix your problems especially if you're actively guiding your coach toward a focus on something like club face angle instead of making sure you've got your feet in the right place and the right grip on your club.

I'm by no means a golf expert, but I teach motorcycle classes so I know a thing or three about adult education. It can be a tough as a coach to deal with hyperfocused type-A personalities. I completely understand where you're coming from--you think you see the problem, and you get laser focused on solving it. That's a really good attribute in life, but it doesn't help in situations with a ton of variables, like a golf swing.

Dave Alvarado said:

You'd be doing better than the pros...

Click to expand...

First, I said playable and not necessarily in the fairway. I know what the tour stats are and what you are linking to is based on fairways hit, not playable shots. Pros have something closer to 99% playable shots and that's why they are pros. But, reading is fundamental. And I've only been playing golf for roughly 18 months, and know it takes years to get what I would consider really good. So wanting to keep a shot playable hardly seems like unreasonable expectations. If that's not reasonable then there are a lot of people on this forum with fictitious handicaps. Golf is tough when your ball is lost in the woods all the time.

Which brings me me to point two. I gladly accept criticism, but from someone who knows what they are talking about. A few guys just came up something completely random one of which was explained by the Monte link I provided. There is no sense in me chasing issues that are not a problem. I don't always agree with Tadashi, but what he stated was visible in the video and I agreed with him.

Finally, I don't lead my coach anywhere. He identified the open face issue and is working on the feelings I may associate with the needed correction. And I should give myself more credit on the fundamentals I guess, but I'm trying to explain that I have plenty mis-hits just like any other amatuer. I don't spray balls all over the place. I have a specific miss that only changes if I alter some part of the swing to try and fix another. The ball goes the distance I want and direction I want with my irons 80% or more of the time. I have an amateurs dispersion though and okay with that. I've said it before, but if I didn't game woods at all I would be around a 15 handicap (or better). But I don't want to stop gaming a club so that I can call myself a 15 handicap just because. I care less about that and more about getting the swing/a swing down with every club to the 80% rule. I want to be able to hit it decently (close to the distance and close to the direction I want/intend) 80% of the time. The dispersion I apply to that rule is anywhere I can find/play the ball. I'm not holding myself to 10 feet from the pin on 80% of shots to consider that goal achieved.

I also teach and compete on other areas, at least one of which is very similar to golf in the minor adjustments make big changes. Most people think it's really hard or that they are much better than they really are. I'm successful in the skill so I think anything can be accomplished with the right amount of time and effort. You have a right to your own opinion, but I just see it as a defeatist attitude.

Handicap is handicap. It's a deep rabbit hole to say "handicap only counts if <x>".

If we're playing match play and I only tee off with a 3 wood, does my handicap not count? What if I'm hitting off the white tees and you're hitting from the tips?

I applaud your efforts to set yourself a difficult task and try to master it. You certainly have done that, buying the least forgiving clubs and trying to learn to hit all of them well. If you achieve your goal of shooting in the 70s on any course you go to, you'll be ready for the tour. I just personally feel like you might save yourself a lot of frustration in the shorter term by actually getting that 15 handicap, then doing what you need to do to get it down to a 10, then a 5, instead of sitting in the 30s struggling with one club out of 14.

Tadashi70 said:

Where did you hear this? The noise you speak of starts at the right hip through impact. All of the positive speed of a golf swing in generated from about the right hip area, with most of it happening at or just prior to impact.

Click to expand...

I've seen it many places. I think the first time may have been a Tom Watson segment. I think I've also seen Michael Breed talk about it. This is more or less a visual of what I was trying to say, in case my words were poor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZDy1mZ8Xus

tequila4kapp said:

I've seen it many places. I think the first time may have been a Tom Watson segment. I think I've also seen Michael Breed talk about it. This is more or less a visual of what I was trying to say, in case my words were poor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZDy1mZ8Xus

Click to expand...

That video explained what Tadashi said, your comment earlier in the thread was a little different bc you said you should hear it around your left hip. The video is saying you'd be wrong if you hear it around your right ear (casting). That's when you hang back and flip the club.

-CRW- said:

That video explained what Tadashi said, your comment earlier in the thread was a little different bc you said you should hear it around your left hip. The video is saying you'd be wrong if you hear it around your right ear (casting). That's when you hang back and flip the club.

Click to expand...

Here's what I said.

tequila4kapp said:

Fair are enough. The easiest way I know for telling whether or not you are flipping the club is to turn it upside down so you hold the club near the face. Take your normal swing. If you hear the swoosh by your right hip you are flipping. If you hear the swoosh by your left hip you are releasing the club. Good luck!

Click to expand...

This is exactly what is shown in the video. Swoosh at back hip = bad. Swoosh at front hip = good.

Maybe tone isn't coming across properly but some of your posts appear to be a bit personal / attacky, which isn't appreciated. I return to this thread because I'm genuinely interested in your progress and potentially learning new stuff myself. Good luck in your journey to getting better!

Without seeing the swing, here are the keys to look out for.

First check the impact on the face, especially with the driver, see if you are hitting it center, if that's not the case, I'd adjust the shaft length of the wood/driver. There is no one size fits all, especially the longest clubs.
then, check the left wrist position, see if it's flat or cupped, if it's bowed out, then you would have trouble squaring it.
also shoulder position, see if it matches your feet, try to have it slightly closed (clockwise relative to your feet for righty)
as well as ball position, see if it's too far forward.
Finally, the take away, try to keep the face square facing target as you take it away for as long as you can.

These are the things I check when I'm starting to have issues with my driver/wood. Hope it helps. Good luck!

tequila4kapp said:

Here's what I said.

This is exactly what is shown in the video. Swoosh at back hip = bad. Swoosh at front hip = good.

Maybe tone isn't coming across properly but some of your posts appear to be a bit personal / attacky, which isn't appreciated. I return to this thread because I'm genuinely interested in your progress and potentially learning new stuff myself. Good luck in your journey to getting better!

Click to expand...

The video you posted says the swoosh should be in front of you at the ball, not the left hip.

What I think you are seeing is where he's stopping the club. The bad swoosh is by his right ear, but he's just stopping that partial swing at his right hip.

The good swoosh he is showing is occurring at the ball, he's just stopping his partial swing at the left hip instead of following through when he's emphasizing the swoosh portion.

My negative tone was to the guy above, in response to his. (Dave Alvorado).

-CRW- said:

My negative tone was to the guy above, in response to his. (Dave Alvorado).

Click to expand...

I was just thinking about this thread today, and I want to apologize. Reading back over what I said, I was being a piece of male anatomy.

Dave Alvarado said:

I was just thinking about this thread today, and I want to apologize. Reading back over what I said, I was being a piece of male anatomy.

Click to expand...

No problem. My feelings don't get hurt easily.

And just to include another update, I was able to get significantly better results by grounding the club head a few inches behind the ball at address with my driver. My original line of thought was that it would give me another split second to close the face, but it's also allowing me to address the ball with my shoulders closer to parallel to my target line. I played two 9 hole rounds last week and played both rounds in the 40's. Those two rounds and the 97 I shot on a easier course the week before that would put me at a 15.1 HC (which is why I say handicap means nothing without an understanding of why it is where it is).

I played 1 hole Monday as part of my range/practice and hooked both drives doing this technique. One stayed on the fairway and one was in the left rough but playable. But I lost 20+ yards in distance and want to avoid this if possible (though it's better than 30+ yards right and I'm willing to compromise). I went back over to the range and was still hooking and had to address the ball with the club immediately behind it. I don't know if I'm training my shoulders to stay more square which is requiring me to adjust the head again or if something else was going on. At the very least I should be able to determine where to set the club head behind the ball before a round with a few hits on the range.

I also have a lesson Sunday during the day time and will get more video, and it will be better quality with the light. One of my friends saw the video and said the quality of the 1963 Zapruder Film was better. I'll try to get some with the club at varying distances from the ball at address to see what I do differently with my swing to get slightly varying results.