Yesterday during the final round of coverage we saw DJ hit a ball OB. This of course leads to a different penalty than that of the water hazard. One ball was playable, one was not.
There was a social media firestorm with tweets such as this and many others like it.
Now clearly this tweet forgets that sometimes OB is set in place, because it means no longer on the property of the golf course. Retrieving one’s ball might not be applicable in these instances.
Yet that still brings many questions regarding the rules. Should they be changed? Sound off below.
What course is this?
Edit: After seeing your other post, it has to be Cragun’s. That par 3 is a monster. Was playing into a 20 mph wind when I came through. That course is a great example of stroke and distance penalties when you’re not OB. Beautiful courses. But, you have to be accurate off the tee.
Not that people typically aim for anything other than the middle of the fairway, but I’m definitely playing a shape away from OB regardless of what’s on the other side.. So I guess tahoebum isn’t exactly in the ‘small’ minority here.
This is hole 17 right, maybe 18? I can’t remember, maybe there was the extra hole right after it that is throwing my memory off. I played there last year. No idea how far it was from the tee to the green, but I did try to pump one over the water to see if I had a prayer of clearing it, lol. I did not.
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That is 18 at Bobby’s Legacy and when I played the back tees last on Sunday the carry over that first bunker was 268.
The par 4 at the top is on the Dutch Legacy and that one plays 465 from the tips and you have forced carries on both shots, lol. You can see the green in the very top left corner. I hope the Canadian Tour guys have to play it like that in August.
I was trying to bite off as much of the hole as I could and aim just left of the green. It was a pipe dream that resulted in a lost ball. But, I did already play one out in the middle first. I didn’t play Dutch. Had time for two rounds and the weather was terrible last Labor Day. Ended up at Bobby’s Legacy and The Classic at Maddens. Which is also a nice course. But, I want to say, they’re both great courses. I think I had more fun at Cragun’s though.
It is Cragun’s. My son shot 88 on Saturday and 107 on Sunday because he was pushing things a bit. 11 lost balls for him, lol. I shot 80 on Saturday a little hungover and 70 on Sunday with a double because I pulled an approach shot from 160 about 5 yards left of the 2nd green and lost a ball.
I’ll get in about 35 rounds there this summer and in less than 3 years when my daughter graduates they will become my home courses for 5.5 months each year!! I plan on logging about 120 rounds each summer there.
You can see how close we are(yellow pin) to Cragun’s Legacy Courses(red pin). The Classic at Madden’s resort(#59 ranking in the GD Top 100) is just southwest of the Cragun’s courses. The Pines courses are just at the north end of the lake at the top of the picture and they have 27 amazing holes as well. Gull is a big lake as it’s about 13 miles from the bottom of this picture to the top.
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There are a lot of really nice courses up there. Had the weather not been so bad, I think it would have been a lock to go back again this year (if covid restrictions allow). But, my wife is gun shy now because the trip was cold and rainy. Her and the kids were stuck inside while I braved the weather to golf.
But, anywho, not that it applies to the OB conversation. Didn’t mean to derail the convo.
I’m a bit biased as we are planning on retiring up there, but the 6 or 7 of the resort courses are amazing and all are withing 20 minutes of one another. As us Minnesotans know, the weather doesn’t always cooperate on Memorial or Labor Day but it’s been a great warm summer these last few weeks and it is forecasted to continue. June 10th through Labor Day is usually nice weather and the lake temperature is up above 80* right now. Cragun’s Grandview, and Madden’s Resort all have fantastic indoor pools and game areas for the kids for those rainy days. There are also a couple of indoor water parks in Baxter 7 miles away that kids love. We vacationed at one of the resorts on Gull Lake at least once a year from 1995 until we finally built our retirement home there in 2018.
It’s funny to see the old pictures of the kids because the same families that we’ve known for over 20 years are still vacationing up there, now at our home instead of the resorts. It’s been a great tradition!
My son and daughter in these pictures and their friend Jacob have gone from swingsets to beer pong on their Gull Lake summer vacations, lol. All three from the older pic are at the pong table in the photo from last Saturday. Both boys will graduate from college next May and my daughter the year after that. Time goes fast so enjoy them!
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As you would play a shape away from a large pond if that were there instead of the OB.
Other than the par-3 and one other, I’m not seeing forced carries. I’m seeing risk-reward carries with the option to play away from the risk over the fairways. As for the par-3, 99% of golfers will play it at 145 or under.
The one hole that looked like a 200+ yard forced carry over marsh right off the tee- that is a poorly designed hole, IMO.
You may not be seeing the tiny tee boxes in the images above but I’ll map three more out from the above images that you are likely not seeing. Trust me, there are plenty of stroke and distance penalties all over all three of those courses. There are lots of forced carries and/or woods that are not in anyway playable or conducive to finding a ball. Many of the lost balls we had last weekend were less than a yard into the marsh/water hazard and we saw exactly where they went but couldn’t find them. Woods and water line each side of at least 13 or 14 holes on each course that make placing even a 4 or 5 iron off the tee on a par 4 difficult for a very straight pllus index golfer like me.
The par 3 second tee is at the top of the screen on the upper left and the green is 155 yards away over the marsh. The smallest tee box is the ladies tee and the men’s regular tees have marsh 6 or 7 yards in front of the tee. If you bail out to the left you can easily lose a ball in the swampy, thick woods just short and left of the green. The upper right is the 3rd tee box and again the marsh is just a few yards in front of the white 6100 tees with a forced carry of over 180 yards. Most people play the 6400 tees and the carry is 200 yards often into a stiff south wind. A 200 yard shot to the right side of the fairway would leave you blocked out by the large trees so you need to place your shot very carefully. Of course anything left, right or long on the approach is in the lake. Today the wind was 18 mph gusting to 26.
I could give you another 25 or 30 examples from these three courses but I’ve already spent too much time on this and I’m now heading out on the lake with my family.
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Below the tee box is on the far lower right and the fairway is over 200 yards away in the middle-lower part of the frame. Some days they play the green on the left(anything short or a few yards left is in the hazard) and some days it’s the green on the upper left corner which is 435 yards off the second to back tees(6400) that nearly every male plays. If you fail to clear the marsh on your second shot that is 185 yards away after a 250 yard drive, your drop is about 135 yards from the green but over the marsh again. I’m not going to map out each one for you but they would be glaringly obvious if you played the course.
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Thanks for the elaborations. A par-3 is not relevant to saying a 220-yard carry over water is just like OB. The second one is a bad hole design. The last one is also not the same as OB, as you pick up 50 yards on your drop and go from hitting 6-iron to hitting pitching wedge or 9-iron. That is far less of a penalty than stroke and distance from 185.
Lol, that par 3 doesn’t have a drop area so the drop is at 140 yards instead of 155. The second hole didn’t screw up the #59 ranking on Golf Digest’s top 100 that you can play. The 3rd one you have a forced carry over 200 yards and get stroke and 135/185 if you miss your second shot. That works out to stroke plus 73% of the distance. Not many golfers will get up and down often from 135 yards so it’s still a double bogey if you hit your approach 10 yards short of the green.
I’d love to take you out there and watch you lose a bunch of balls. The bottom line is I’m a plus index for most of the last 37 years and I make a double bogie or two almost every round on those courses because I hit one iron shot maybe 5 or 10 yards left, right, or short of the green. My last three rounds at those courses all had a double bogey on the card and my scores were 70, 69, and 71. I see my buddies that are solid 80’s golfer have stroke and distance penalties(or stroke plus 73% distance penalties) at least a half a dozen times on a slightly off day.
We will have to agree to disagree. No surprise!
You are mixing lost ball examples with your argument for OB being an irrationally harsh penalty. And Golf Digest rankings don’t mean much to me. Those are based on many things beyond the quality of the golf holes. I can probably name a dozen courses not in that ranking that are better than those in it. A 220-yard forced carry starting immediately off the tee box is bad design.
There are people for whom the far greater penalty for hitting it OB causes them to play shots with less risk of going OB. Which makes it rational.
Me for instance. With OB left I’m not hitting driver because my driver miss is often slinging left and I know if that happens I’m going to be 3 from the tee and no guarantee I don’t do it again and take a really silly number. So I play an iron and go from there. Avoiding the penalty lowers my average score.
If it were a penalty area I’d just lol driversmash because worst case now is I’m dropping and hitting 3 closer to the hole with no worry of having to hit another drive.
(the local rule of 2 strokes / drop in fairway rule changes this a bit by taking out the fear of hitting multiple balls OB, but not that much)
I’m not seeing that. You are willing to take one penalty for the risk but not two- that sure isn’t common. And that doesn’t speak toward the unfairness of a double penalty for the same bad swing that you would have on the same type of hole.
There is a less harsh penalty for hitting into a penalty area that is within the course and presents no safety or legal issues.
One size does not fit all because these course interests are not the same.
Without the new local rule it is more than one extra stroke. Both the fear and the reality of hitting multiple drives OB are a significant part of the deterrent. With the new local rule it is less of a deterrent. However, that extra stroke does matter if I am to calculate score probabilities for each course of action. Course management and all that.
(Again, if the penalty is worth complaining about, then penalty is worth trying to avoid)
Fairness is a non-issue. These penalties serve different course interests.
Speeding in a school zone carries an enhanced penalty as opposed to speeding in other contexts even if the speed of the car is the same.
This is not unfair for the same reason OB being a bigger penalty than a penalty area is not unfair.
I don’t think it’s quite 220y, but the Road Hole at St. Andrews has a hefty forced carry off the tee. Would you consider it poorly designed?
Lakes and ponds can have safety issues. If the reason for the deterrent was safety, then some OB should be one penalty and some not. The differing penalties are illogical.
The Road Hole has about a 140 yard carry. Not comparable.
Jesus you win ok. Why is it every thread you participate in you have to make it an argument. Are you not exhausted by this? FFS.
That is what this thread is- a debate whether or not to change the OB rule.
I think what he’s saying is that you just refuse to acknowledge when valid points are made.
Except that you’re wrong. Even from the front tees, to get to a reasonable approach distance you’re gonna need to carry the ball in the realm of 200-210 yards.
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I was expecting a Friends giphy re: pot meet kettle. You let me down.
Furthermore, the key word in my post was "valid". I stand by my assessment.
You are changing the goal posts. The statement was about the amount to carry, not the amount to get to a reasonable approach distance.
I was dying to use the irony one for a while now. I’ll do better next time. I promise.
The fact that you doubled-down on the "valid" part makes me giggle a bit, to be honest. It just further reinforces the irony aspect. Big differenec between acknowledging someones opinion/perspective and deciding to discount it and not even acknowledging that their point is worth listening/considering.
For instance, I know that the 2 stroke penalty rule is the rules that we all play under and I acknowledge the view of many in this thread that ‘leave it alone’ and ‘its there for a reason’ are valid perspectives. I actually ( shocking I know ) partially agree with that view. It is the rule and it does have an affect on how people play the course. However, I still feel the penalty is to harsh given what it is.
The amount to carry to play the hole as it was designed, as intended, and not playing for a bogey. If you’re fine playing for over par, then I guess you have many options. Heck, if you just wanna say you hit your tee shot and didn’t end up in the hazard, OB, or whatever you’re trying to carry, then tee it up and bunt it off 1 yard or so. No penalty to that and you didn’t hit hazard. Good luck with that. A 140y carry will not get you into position to score on that hole. Furthermore, the line on a 140y carry makes no sense to play.
Sidenote: If we ever get to meet at an experience or randomly playing golf, I am buying the first couple round of drinks. I owe you that much just from this thread alone. ?
The biggest argument for the rule to change to be like a lateral hazard is the simple fact that while most golfers complain voceriferously about the severity of the OB rule penalty, most casual golfers completely ignore that penalty. They drop where the ball went out, charge themselves a single stroke and happily turn in their scorecard.
I personally don’t think the rule needs to change because the extra penalness (don’t think that’s a word, but I like it) of the penalty is a deterrent for hitting the ball off property or into areas where it would present danger.
As for "lateral hazards don’t penalize you distance" so why should OB? That’s very situation-dependent. If you rip one into the water hazard that starts right next to the tee box, you’re not getting any distance benefit. Of course there again, a lot of players will misuse the rule and drop where they would like the ball to be rather than where it really crossed.
Post of the day
If you play to the middle of the fairway for a 240-260 yard drive, from the middle tee, the carry is about 170 on the Road Hole. That is not something comparable to a forced 220+ yard carry over water right at the front of the tee box.
Comparing a 170 yard carry off the tee to a 220 yard water carry off the tee is not valid.
It’s all good. I’m a cheap date. I haven’t had alcohol since 1999 and I rarely drink soda anymore. Juice, milk, or water is about it for me. Doubt I’ll ever make another "experience" though. It’d probably have to be an unofficial meet.
If you say so.
Then I’ll get get the first prune juice for ya.
Dude, I’m not that old…
Water hazard boundaries are supposed to be defined as close as possible to where the natural slope to the water begins. It’s hard to describe but there’s usually a pretty clear delineation. You might have a large area sloping gently towards the water, which suddenly changes to a steep drop to the water. It’s at that steep drop where the margin would typically be defined. Obviously things like cart paths and vegetation may alter that line though.
As for why the difference, people need to remember that a water hazard is a feature of the course. It was placed there or retained to provide a challenge. That’s why you’re allowed to play out of it (usually). OB is a prohibited area, either because it’s off the course or for safety reasons. I’m not sure why people have a problem understanding why you can’t hit a ball that’s OB. Because you hit it in a prohibited area. That’s why.
Of course the one exception to the above is oceans or large lakes bordering the property. No, they weren’t placed there or retained, and they may not be course property. However, they are a water hazard so if it’s safe to do so the course will generally designate them as such. However, I’m sure there are situations where an adjacent lake or ocean has safety concerns like a highly populated beach and therefore the course may mark it as OB.
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Not sure why you think anyone is saying the rule should be changed to allow hitting out if OB. I don’t think anyone is advocating for hitting out if OB, just not getting penalized 2 strokes for it.
It was said way back in the thread somewhere.
Actually, it was the 2nd post.
Ahhh. I see it now. Yeah, that shouldnt happen. It’s OB for a reason. Unplayable, just don’t cost me 2 strokes like it did to me today. Drive to right side of fairway, hits hard and bounces to cart path. One bounce. Two bounce. Third bounce kicks right and rolls OB by 3 inches. No houses, no freeways, no railroad tracks, no cliffs, no rivers, no armed gunmen. Just trees.