For more than four years, LIV Golf disrupted professional golf in a way few could have imagined. Billions of dollars were spent, some of the biggest names in the game left the PGA Tour, and the sport became increasingly divided between two competing sides.
Now, LIV Golf has entered Chapter 11 restructuring, and that brings us to a question that isn’t quite as simple as it sounds.
Did LIV Golf actually win?
In this episode of Splitting Fairways, Ryan and Jeremy look beyond the bankruptcy headlines to debate what LIV actually accomplished and what its impact could mean for professional golf long after the original version of the league is gone.
Did LIV Change the PGA Tour?
From a business standpoint, LIV’s original model clearly ran into problems. But judging its success strictly by whether the league became sustainable may miss part of the story.
The PGA Tour that exists today looks different from the one LIV challenged in 2022. Bigger purses, Signature Events and the Player Equity Program all became part of the landscape during the battle between the two sides.
Would those changes have happened without LIV?
That’s where the debate gets interesting. LIV may have failed as a league while succeeding as a disruptor.
What About the Players?
Then there are the golfers who left.
For years, the easy criticism was that LIV players simply “took the money.” Chapter 11 complicates that argument, with LIV seeking the ability to reject existing player contracts and some contractual obligations still outstanding.
Jon Rahm may be the most fascinating example. He left the PGA Tour in his prime and proceeded to win three consecutive LIV season-long individual championships. Yet, how many golf fans could name those accomplishments?
That raises a much bigger question about legacy. What might Rahm’s career look like had those same three seasons played out on the PGA Tour?
Bryson DeChambeau presents almost the opposite case. A U.S. Open victory, strong major performances and his enormous growth as a golf personality arguably strengthened his overall legacy.
Who Won the Golf War?
Should Rahm, DeChambeau and other LIV stars eventually be welcomed back to the PGA Tour? Should there be consequences for leaving? And when their careers are over, how much will LIV accomplishments matter?
Maybe LIV changed professional golf. Maybe the PGA Tour survived. Maybe some players won financially.
But after years of fractured fields and division throughout the sport, did golf fans actually win?
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Thanks for listening you guys. For not knowing or caring much about LIV, I apparently have quite a few opinions on it 💀
I don’t think LIV won in anyway. Some of their goals and beefs with the PGA Tour have forced the tour to change. If you want to call that a win then I guess you can. I wish the players could have found a better way to force change than what happened.
LIV was doomed to fail because they tried to bypass what sports fans like. Sports fans like tradition and history more than anything new. It’s why every major win devolves into “What is their legacy?” discussions. (Which are just as annoying as LIV vs PGA discussions.) Sports histories and traditions are built over decades and take generations to truly grab ahold. Throwing $5 billion doesn’t let you avoid that. That’s why no one will care that Rahm won the player’s title or whatever it’s called. There’s no history to compare it against. And LIV didn’t approach with the long term goal of creating that history and building slowly.
I didn’t enjoy the product. I didn’t like most of the golfers. We already had a spot/league/tour for the best players in the world. LIV did nothing more than water it down for 5 years and create another us vs them argument.
[QUOTE=”Hawk, post: 14332347, member: 1193″]
Thanks for listening you guys. For not knowing or caring much about LIV, I apparently have quite a few opinions on it 💀
[/QUOTE]
You are not alone in that aspect…
[QUOTE=”Hawk, post: 14332347, member: 1193″]
Thanks for listening you guys. For not knowing or caring much about LIV, I apparently have quite a few opinions on it 💀
[/QUOTE]
Of course you do. Because it effects the golf world and you’re a part of that. I don’t care about LIV. But I care about what it’s done to professional golf and the overall golf world.
Other than Dax – we all agree it’s boring as hell though, right?
Also, be honest. Who knew Rahm won three straight season championships.
I don’t think it’s any more boring than the PGA TOUR honestly. Most events have garbage for a field, twice as many commercials if not more, and earlier on, they spent half the time talking about the other tour.
The only people that lost here are the fans. Based on the outcry, I’m convinced we’re living in a simulation, and the puppet masters are ******* idiots
[QUOTE=”Hawk, post: 14332457, member: 1193″]
Other than Dax – we all agree it’s boring as hell though, right?
Also, be honest. Who knew Rahm won three straight season championships.
[/QUOTE]
he won it one year and I think only had won actual win. Weird setup that doesnt make sense.
[QUOTE=”Hawk, post: 14332457, member: 1193″]
Other than Dax – we all agree it’s boring as hell though, right?
Also, be honest. Who knew Rahm won three straight season championships.
[/QUOTE]
I knew …
[QUOTE=”JDax, post: 14332484, member: 22002″]
I knew …
[/QUOTE]
You’re a shill for LIV of course you did
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 14332462, member: 3″]
I don’t think it’s any more boring than the PGA TOUR honestly. Most events have garbage for a field, twice as many commercials if not more, and earlier on, they spent half the time talking about the other tour.
The only people that lost here are the fans. Based on the outcry, I’m convinced we’re living in a simulation, and the puppet masters are ******* idiots
[/QUOTE]
To add the visual presentation was way better than PGAT. Things like the LIV Line on the greens & the flyovers with how the field was scoring on holes in real time were great.
Live LIV events were better to watch than live PGA tour events minus majors. The ability to stay in one spot and have action the whole day was better.
LIV lost. Some of their players won getting more cash than they would have. PGA players won getting larger purses and getting changes that were forced on the tour. Fans were the most damaged.
Not many will be interested in LIV 2.0, but I’d argue those same people won’t be interested in the second tier PGA Tour events come 2028 when we get the real tour players and the other tour events.
[QUOTE=”TWright, post: 14332518, member: 11048″]
Live LIV events were better to watch than live PGA tour events minus majors. The ability to stay in one spot and have action the whole day was better.
LIV lost. Some of their players won getting more cash than they would have. PGA players won getting larger purses and getting changes that were forced on the tour. Fans were the most damaged.
Not many will be interested in LIV 2.0, but I’d argue those same people won’t be interested in the second tier PGA Tour events come 2028 when we get the real tour players and the other tour events.
[/QUOTE]
I’m in for 2.0… [USER=6774]@echico[/USER] [USER=15992]@MikeG[/USER] and others will be there.
[QUOTE=”JDax, post: 14332523, member: 22002″]
I’m in for 2.0… [USER=6774]@echico[/USER] [USER=15992]@MikeG[/USER] and others will be there.
[/QUOTE]
I could be interested but gotta see what it looks like, when and where they are playing, and what golfers are still there.
Phil said it was an opportunity to change the way the tour operates, it did that. Accordingly it was a win for the players, not so much for LIV or the tour as organizations.
[QUOTE=”JDax, post: 14332484, member: 22002″]
I knew …
[/QUOTE]
As did I. When I went to the team championship event at Doral, two young ladies approached my wife and I and asked if we would answer some questions. We were each given a free LIV golf shirt when I correctly answered about eight questions about the league.
[QUOTE=”JDax, post: 14332523, member: 22002″]
I’m in for 2.0… [USER=6774]@echico[/USER] [USER=15992]@MikeG[/USER] and others will be there.
[/QUOTE]
[IMG alt=”Calm Down Saturday Night Live GIF”]https://media3.giphy.com/media/3o7TKwJgF0v0JX5gys/200.gif[/IMG]
i don’t know that LIV “won”…..
The Saudi’s spent a boatload of money…. but, for what? I still can’t see what they sought to gain. Did Greg Norman actually fleece an entire country out of what was it.. 5 or 6 Billion dollars?? And they’ve got absolutely nothing to show for it that i can see….
My initial thoughts
Greg Norman won…. he put the screws to the PGAT which had shunned his ideas for decades…. He certainly made them pay for it.
Phil…. well…. Phil got a lot of money and that’s about it. (again, assuming he was paid in full before the Ch. 11 filing).
Ditto John Rahm, Brooks Koepka…. Dustin Johnson, Bryson… and several others….
If there are guys affected by LIV not being able to pay due to the Ch 11 filing, i feel for them but… hey, it can happen.
For better or worse… The PGAT will never be the same again – while that MAY be a good thing, i don’t think the “New” PGAT will be any better. They’ll continue to chase more and more money to pay these guys with massive purses, and i don’t think that money is the answer to it all. I’m anxious to listen and see what details are shared.
About the only sure thing…. The conveyor belt of golf talent has not slowed and we will see newer and younger stars come into play. I don’t feel there will be the same career longevity with the very top players. The massive amounts of money these top guys can earn in a short period would seem to deter hanging around when the win frequency (or even top 10’s) slows down…. just my opinion…. i hope i’m wrong.
Man i could talk about this topic for hours……and me and [USER=1193]@Hawk[/USER] did talk a bit about it at HC. I am very opinionated on LIV, and frankly it’s actually the primary reason i became a member at THP, but that is another story for another time
A couple of high level comments
1) I think only a few players “won” by going to LIV. Dustin Johnson is an obvious one. He left right as his play was declining, he rarely talks so his rep will suffer little damage, he’ll probably be able to get a few sponsors invites on the PGA Tour and will age gracefully. Nobody hates Dustin, everyone gets it. Guys like Sergio and Poulter won because they milked the last dollars out of their careers . Koepka and Rahm won because they got huge paydays and the tour will actually want them back. Koepka was in a dark place when he took the money. If he could do it over again he likely wouldn’t, but remember at the time he had zero confidence and was sulking.
2) Bryson its probably even. He became famous enough he may have made the same amount or more staying on the tour. People forget that Rory (a PGA player) was the highest paid golfer in the world even during LIV. Bryson may have even become a bigger star and made more money by staying.
3) The PGA tour didn’t get NEARLY enough blame for their behavior during the LIV development. What they did was very likely illegal in multiple different ways and still what they are doing is almost certainly illegal (forcing guys to pay fines for leaving when they are a borderline monopoly). What the PGA tour is doing should offend everyone who has a job and wants fair compensation for workers. They are [I]not [/I]the good guys here.
4) LIV was incredibly poorly run from the start. If you followed them in year 1, they never thought they would actually have to run a league. This whole thing seemed to have been a dare to challenge and negotiate with the PGA Tour, which failed. When the PGA tour suspended players ,they seemed shocked they actually had to run a league. They didn’t have a format, a full schedule, or merch available for the first 5-6 months of existence. If it was run by competent people,maybe it would have had a chance.
All of it made me like pro golf less.
[QUOTE=”MtlJeff, post: 14332927, member: 68350″]
Man i could talk about this topic for hours……and me and [USER=1193]@Hawk[/USER] did talk a bit about it at HC. I am very opinionated on LIV, and frankly it’s actually the primary reason i became a member at THP, but that is another story for another time
A couple of high level comments
1) I think only a few players “won” by going to LIV. Dustin Johnson is an obvious one. He left right as his play was declining, he rarely talks so his rep will suffer little damage, he’ll probably be able to get a few sponsors invites on the PGA Tour and will age gracefully. Nobody hates Dustin, everyone gets it. Guys like Sergio and Poulter won because they milked the last dollars out of their careers . Koepka and Rahm won because they got huge paydays and the tour will actually want them back. Koepka was in a dark place when he took the money. If he could do it over again he likely wouldn’t, but remember at the time he had zero confidence and was sulking.
2) Bryson its probably even. He became famous enough he may have made the same amount or more staying on the tour. People forget that Rory (a PGA player) was the highest paid golfer in the world even during LIV. Bryson may have even become a bigger star and made more money by staying.
3) The PGA tour didn’t get NEARLY enough blame for their behavior during the LIV development. What they did was very likely illegal in multiple different ways and still what they are doing is almost certainly illegal (forcing guys to pay fines for leaving when they are a borderline monopoly). What the PGA tour is doing should offend everyone who has a job and wants fair compensation for workers. They are [I]not [/I]the good guys here.
4) LIV was incredibly poorly run from the start. If you followed them in year 1, they never thought they would actually have to run a league. This whole thing seemed to have been a dare to challenge and negotiate with the PGA Tour, which failed. When the PGA tour suspended players ,they seemed shocked they actually had to run a league. They didn’t have a format, a full schedule, or merch available for the first 5-6 months of existence. If it was run by competent people,maybe it would have had a chance.
All of it made me like pro golf less.
[/QUOTE]
The PGA Tour, and its biggest names, really do share a lot of blame in the ugliness.
I’m not sure I’ll call Rahm a winner. I think he’s going to end up with much less money than he intended to make, at a pretty big cost to his legacy. I think that actually matters to him, but I may be wrong on that.
[QUOTE=”Hawk, post: 14332978, member: 1193″]
The PGA Tour, and its biggest names, really do share a lot of blame in the ugliness.
I’m not sure I’ll call Rahm a winner. I think he’s going to end up with much less money than he intended to make, at a pretty big cost to his legacy. I think that actually matters to him, but I may be wrong on that.
[/QUOTE]
I actually forgot to post, so much with Rahm depends on the contract and if he actually gets paid it also. I don’t know the details and it’s possible he does not get the full amount and receives some sort of settlement if the league folds. To my knowledge the contracts were a bit vague publically
It’s possible Rahm doesn’t come out ahead, you’re right on that. He had just come off winning a Masters. LIV offered him a ton, it only makes sense if he receives all of it
[QUOTE=”Hawk, post: 14332978, member: 1193″]
The PGA Tour, and its biggest names, really do share a lot of blame in the ugliness.
I’m not sure I’ll call Rahm a winner. I think he’s going to end up with much less money than he intended to make, at a pretty big cost to his legacy. I think that actually matters to him, but I may be wrong on that.
[/QUOTE]
I guess it depends on what bakes a winner or a loser?
[QUOTE=”MtlJeff, post: 14332986, member: 68350″]
I actually forgot to post, so much with Rahm depends on the contract and if he actually gets paid it also. I don’t know the details and it’s possible he does not get the full amount and receives some sort of settlement if the league folds. To my knowledge the contracts were a bit vague publically
It’s possible Rahm doesn’t come out ahead, you’re right on that. He had just come off winning a Masters. LIV offered him a ton, it only makes sense if he receives all of it
[/QUOTE]
You could maybe make a case for Cam Smith wasting his legacy too, but I’m not convinced he was going to be anything more than a flash in the pan.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 14332989, member: 3″]
I guess it depends on what bakes a winner or a loser?
[/QUOTE]
I just can’t imagine a world where he doesn’t regret becoming the best of the nobodies at the prime of his career.
[QUOTE=”Hawk, post: 14332992, member: 1193″]
You could maybe make a case for Cam Smith wasting his legacy too, but I’m not convinced he was going to be anything more than a flash in the pan.
[/QUOTE]
100% agree with you. He was a poor mans Australian Spieth. Rode a hot short game and cashed in.
I’d add him as a winner to i guess. Because i think if he’d stayed on tour he’d have faded
[QUOTE=”MtlJeff, post: 14332997, member: 68350″]
100% agree with you. He was a poor mans Australian Spieth. Rode a hot short game and cashed in.
I’d add him as a winner to i guess. Because i think if he’d stayed on tour he’d have faded
[/QUOTE]
Oh, that’s a good point actually. He probably got a decent number of Crushers hats too I suppose.
I finally got a chance to listen to this one. I think LIV golf has served its purpose to disrupt the status quo and shine a light on how the PGAT was taking advantage of the players.
The money and payouts are now over inflated bc they had to react and not risk losing more names to LIV. I’m curious now how the next tv contracts work and with sponsors not renewing some stops,
LIV 2.0 will be leaner and look slightly different from a talent perspective, but there is no denying the international attraction it has generated
I thi
[QUOTE=”Alan4014, post: 14332324, member: 12709″]
I think the players won. No doubt
Players on the PGA tour are playing for way more money than pre LIV. And I can’t think of any LIV player who didn’t make way more money with LIV than they could have ever made on the PGA tour, even with the current elevated purses. And any and all that are still competitive will have a path back to the pga should they choose to pursue it.
Second biggest winner will be the DP tour. I foresee most, other than maybe Rahm and Bryson, playing on the DP tour next season in an effort to get their status back that way. Some will and move up and on depending on what pga tour options are available, but I foresee some being on the DP tour for years to come.
[/QUOTE]
I think professional golfers won to the extent that they were rewarded financially- on the PGA Tour with increased purses and on LIV with the contracts and the purses. However, in a larger sense, all professional golfers lost. In business, and professional golf is clearly a business, competition is good. And with players being labeled as independent contractors, they should be able to play on whatever tour they want without fear of repercussions or suspensions because that is what they could do if they were truly independent contractors. That never has been and is currently not now. The players are not independent contractors in accordance with the recognized and established legal definition of that term.
[QUOTE=”MtlJeff, post: 14332927, member: 68350″]
Man i could talk about this topic for hours……and me and [USER=1193]@Hawk[/USER] did talk a bit about it at HC. I am very opinionated on LIV, and frankly it’s actually the primary reason i became a member at THP, but that is another story for another time
A couple of high level comments
1) I think only a few players “won” by going to LIV. Dustin Johnson is an obvious one. He left right as his play was declining, he rarely talks so his rep will suffer little damage, he’ll probably be able to get a few sponsors invites on the PGA Tour and will age gracefully. Nobody hates Dustin, everyone gets it. Guys like Sergio and Poulter won because they milked the last dollars out of their careers . Koepka and Rahm won because they got huge paydays and the tour will actually want them back. Koepka was in a dark place when he took the money. If he could do it over again he likely wouldn’t, but remember at the time he had zero confidence and was sulking.
2) Bryson its probably even. He became famous enough he may have made the same amount or more staying on the tour. People forget that Rory (a PGA player) was the highest paid golfer in the world even during LIV. Bryson may have even become a bigger star and made more money by staying.
3) The PGA tour didn’t get NEARLY enough blame for their behavior during the LIV development. What they did was very likely illegal in multiple different ways and still what they are doing is almost certainly illegal (forcing guys to pay fines for leaving when they are a borderline monopoly). What the PGA tour is doing should offend everyone who has a job and wants fair compensation for workers. They are [I]not [/I]the good guys here.
4) LIV was incredibly poorly run from the start. If you followed them in year 1, they never thought they would actually have to run a league. This whole thing seemed to have been a dare to challenge and negotiate with the PGA Tour, which failed. When the PGA tour suspended players ,they seemed shocked they actually had to run a league. They didn’t have a format, a full schedule, or merch available for the first 5-6 months of existence. If it was run by competent people,maybe it would have had a chance.
All of it made me like pro golf less.
[/QUOTE]
Agree with your comments in paragraph #3. The PGA Tour could be found to be, under the existing antitrust laws, an illegal monopoly that has operated and continues to operate in violation of the law. The rise and fall of LIV doesn’t change that.
[QUOTE=”Bernoulli, post: 14333188, member: 42734″]
Agree with your comments in paragraph #3. The PGA Tour could be found to be, under the existing antitrust laws, an illegal monopoly that has operated and continues to operate in violation of the law. The rise and fall of LIV doesn’t change that.
[/QUOTE]
I am VERY passionate about that topic. I don’t want to get into politics too much of course, but the PGA tour used the LIV backer angle a lot to cover up that what they were doing was very ethically troubling and likely illegal. They threatened employees with penalties for leaving, permanent bans, blackballing etc. They were very arguably a monopoly or close to….and openly threatened employees with punishment for going to an emerging competitor they were openly and actively trying to destroy. They got away with this because the money was Saudi, who was portrayed as a foe, but in 2026 is very widely considered to be a major US ally. Funny how that works
And to top it off….when the LIV/PGA tour potential merger was announced they doubled down on fines for anyone to come back which guys like Rory openly boasted about, after legit announcing plans to become an actual monopoly. I don’t believe this is actually legal…..in a real sense. Can you merge with a company and then penalize people who left you to go to that company? What kind of message does that send? Is that legal?
It’s too bad the money is too good for guys Like Brooks to care, it’s better for them to pay the fines and etc and move on. But what the PGA tour did to these guys was likely illegal. And what Jay Monehan did was incredibly unethical and anti-worker. He was a terrible CEO, and if he had done what he did to guys making 60K a year instead of 10M, he’d be an alltime villain
I remain very interested in the legal issues surrounding the PGA Tour and LIV. I have an interest in Sports Law, especially antitrust matters.
Golf if your on tour wins … because of more $$$
It doesn’t matter to me , I don’t have any, leaning either way…
The millionaires club, will still play , and have something to moan over.