What all tournament directors should do...

So playing with my son in a father/son alternate shot, stroke-play tournament, the classic no-win situation came up.

I witnessed two different rule violations by one father/son team. My responsibility was to "protect the field." However, I also felt a responsibility to the mood of the event, if there is such a thing. It was young kids, out with their dads, having fun. I didn't feel it was the appropriate place to pull out the rule book and ruin his son's enjoyment of the morning.

In the end, they were not in the running for any of the trophies, so there was no tangible effect. I decided to handle it by approaching the father after the round, while he and his marker were comparing scorecards. I told him that while I felt like we were all there to have fun, in other more serious tournaments, competitors or their parents might not be so easygoing, and I let him know of the rules violations I witnessed (pressing down spike marks on his line, and his son taking multiple practice swings and grounding his club in a hazard). By doing so while they were comparing scorecards, I felt like it gave them the option of asking what penalties should be assessed and changing the score. He didn't - they signed the scorecards and turned them in, and I said nothing further. He was quite nice about it and thanked me for letting him know, and in particular pointed out he didn't know the rule about pressing things down in your line.

However, it's my belief that tournament directors could avoid putting us golfers in this uncomfortable situation. If at the beginning of the tournament, they would always announce that it's each player's responsibility to protect the field by calling a rules infraction if they commit or see one, it might lessen the "you're being ridiculous" reaction which some people invariably have. Even if such a reaction happens, by the announcement being made, others in the group would be more apt to stand up for the person calling the infraction, rather than the guilty party. I believe tournament directors should also clarify that they don't want people going out of their way to try to spot or call penalties, but rather just that what's seen should be called.

Thoughts? Would doing so destroy the "fun" atmosphere of a tournament? Would it cause so many rules argument as to interfere with the administration of the tournament?

I'm not sure what I would have done had they been in the running for the trophies. Had I told them then and they still signed the scorecards, I would feel responsibility to inform the committee, especially since I could be subject to disqualification for not doing so.

I am a firm believer in letting people know that they are infringing the rules, I generally do so in a manner that is very non confrontational - more often than not people are unaware that they are infringing and welcome having the finer things being pointed out to them, you mention that this was in a competition with trophies at stake - they really need to know at the times (giving them the opportunity to rectify the potential infringement or to apply the applicable penalty as delaying this may impact more than the hole they are playing) as the next time they are playing someone may not take the more relaxed stance and as you say they could have their day ruined by a small infraction.

It's never nice being the guy that comes across as the rule master, but if it's done the right way it can prevent habits being formed

I don't really feel like it's any of my business. if they were about to win a tourney, I would bring it to the tourney officials, but otherwise, not my place. I'd never want to come off like I'm the keeper of the rules of golf. If they were looking to get away with something, then I absolutely do something. In this case, they were having fun and seems like enjoying the day on the course. They weren't hurting the course or going to win anything, I'd have left them alone.

that is a tough situation. i don't know all the rules but know many of the basic ones, especially the ones most amateurs tend to break (such as the ones you noticed). If in a tournament situation I think a person should point out a rules infraction to the offending party to let them what the infraction was and the penalty. I would then leave it up to them to decide if what they are going to do and in your case there was a marker so i would let him know. If the marker and the offender don't do anything about it then that is on them and their conscience, you did your part.

I think you handled it just about perfectly. Well done.

I've been in a similar situation, and always fear being viewed as the "Rules Nerd"

I like the way you handled it. One time I was faced with bringing it up to a team that was in contention and while he didn't agree with my interpretation, he did agree to check with the head pro (tournament chairman) at the end of the event, and abide by whatever he said. I asked if he wanted to play two balls and record the score for each. He said no that wasn't necessary.

Well turns whether it was my bringing it his attention or what, he kind of spun out of control the rest of the round and didn't even stick around to turn his card in. They NC'd and didn't show at the post round dinner.

when the chairman asked me if I knew where their card was, I kind of explained what happened. He didn't seem surprised by the actions of the guy and his teammate. Guess it (NC) had happened before.

Any case, i think you handled it quite well for that situation. It is a tough spot to protect the field, without being viewed as a jerk.

Tough call. I think you handled it the way I would in that environment. Something like spike marks in a putting line is really tough with the average golfer on an average course also, as most people are not careful how they walk, and not conscious they are making marks that could affect others. Greens may already not be amazing in the first place also.

I wouldnt say anything. Its a father and son tournament with young kids, the family was having fun, they werent in the running to win (not sure that would matter to me). Why take even a single thing away from that with rules? Im not saying the OP is right or wrong, but I would never do it. We arent talking about foot wedges, etc...We are speaking of spike marks.

It comes off as taking things too seriously or the parent that yells at Umps all day long about the strike zone. Again, not directed at the OP.

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with the way the OP handled it, just not the way I would have. I play golf to have fun. When I am with my family, I want to have as much fun as possible. Worrying about how someone else is playing does nothing for me in that spot.

JB said:

I wouldnt say anything. Its a father and son tournament with young kids, the family was having fun, they werent in the running to win (not sure that would matter to me). Why take even a single thing away from that with rules? Im not saying the OP is right or wrong, but I would never do it. We arent talking about foot wedges, etc...We are speaking of spike marks.

It comes off as taking things too seriously or the parent that yells at Umps all day long about the strike zone. Again, not directed at the OP.

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with the way the OP handled it, just not the way I would have. I play golf to have fun. When I am with my family, I want to have as much fun as possible. Worrying about how someone else is playing does nothing for me in that spot.

Click to expand...

Josh,

I certainly appreciate what you're saying, as well as you pointing out that you weren't disagreeing with my actions. It's such a hard question, that's why I bring it to the forum to discuss.

I wonder though - does anything change if the person had been likely to take 1st place? Would anyone think it their responsibility to be sure the child who should have won if the infractions had been called gets the excitement of winning? Is it really right to let the infractions go and have the "non-deserving" child win?

The other question of course that comes into play is that you don't know what was going on in other groups. And one can use that as justification for not saying anything. But of course golf's answer to this is to rely on every golfer's integrity to abide by the rules, including infractions.

Note of course that all this applies to adults as well as children. It's just even tougher a call with children involved.

JB said:

I wouldnt say anything. Its a father and son tournament with young kids, the family was having fun, they werent in the running to win (not sure that would matter to me). Why take even a single thing away from that with rules? Im not saying the OP is right or wrong, but I would never do it. We arent talking about foot wedges, etc...We are speaking of spike marks.

It comes off as taking things too seriously or the parent that yells at Umps all day long about the strike zone. Again, not directed at the OP.

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with the way the OP handled it, just not the way I would have. I play golf to have fun. When I am with my family, I want to have as much fun as possible. Worrying about how someone else is playing does nothing for me in that spot.

Click to expand...

I agree with JB here. Seems like these two infringements had very little impact on the outcome of those particular situations anyway. Also seems like they weren't aware of those rules, and while I don't condone ignorance, Intentional rule breaking is another story. That being said I don't think is have an issue with it. If they cheated and won, it's just a life lesson teaching opportunity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How old were the kids? I mean, at some point in time they learn about the infield fly rule, offsides in soccer, and that you can't police up a spike mark on a green. You'd think that this sort of thing would come from their parents, but next best would be to have a designated rules official inform them. I would have informed a rules official and seen what he thinks would be the next course of action.

JB said:

I wouldnt say anything. Its a father and son tournament with young kids, the family was having fun, they werent in the running to win (not sure that would matter to me). Why take even a single thing away from that with rules? Im not saying the OP is right or wrong, but I would never do it. We arent talking about foot wedges, etc...We are speaking of spike marks.

It comes off as taking things too seriously or the parent that yells at Umps all day long about the strike zone. Again, not directed at the OP.

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with the way the OP handled it, just not the way I would have. I play golf to have fun. When I am with my family, I want to have as much fun as possible. Worrying about how someone else is playing does nothing for me in that spot.

Click to expand...

I'm also with JB, again you handled it perfectly for that situation. But for me I wouldn't have said anything.

One I feel the spike mark rule is kinda silly and he probably didn't have any idea he was even breaking a rule.

And Idk about the age of the kids but if he's having fun I see nothing wrong with it as long as he's not ruining the course or making it extremely slow.

I know I'm not a big rules reader and probably wouldn't even of known if someone was breaking one, outside the obvious.

Good luck to you in the future.

tequila4kapp said:

I think you handled it just about perfectly. Well done.

Click to expand...

I agree. Well done!

jspangs said:

One I feel the spike mark rule is kinda silly and he probably didn't have any idea he was even breaking a rule.

Click to expand...

Ignoring the original kids-involved context of the thread for a moment, this is the problem with the rules though - they only work if they're consistently applied. If you allow a fellow-competitor to tamp down spike marks because you think the rule silly, the guy who missed two putts because of spike marks is the one who pays the price. Similarly, ignoring violations of that rule because you disagree with it is not really different than overlooking the fact someone rolled their ball over "just a bit" in the rough.

Perhaps the fact that the rules only work if consistently applied and the extreme unlikelihood of that happening in an amateur tournament is reason enough for us to just throw up our hands and decide that we can only win if we're 1-stroke better than everyone else, plus a few extra strokes for an inconsistency in the application of the rules. Perhaps tournament golf according to the rules of golf is achievable only in the professional ranks. Being the eternal optimist I am though, I prefer to believe it's a goal which is worth our continued pursuit. If I win a tournament, I want to KNOW I deserved the win. The same is true if I lose.

wadesworld said:

Josh,

I certainly appreciate what you're saying, as well as you pointing out that you weren't disagreeing with my actions. It's such a hard question, that's why I bring it to the forum to discuss.

I wonder though - does anything change if the person had been likely to take 1st place? Would anyone think it their responsibility to be sure the child who should have won if the infractions had been called gets the excitement of winning? Is it really right to let the infractions go and have the "non-deserving" child win?

The other question of course that comes into play is that you don't know what was going on in other groups. And one can use that as justification for not saying anything. But of course golf's answer to this is to rely on every golfer's integrity to abide by the rules, including infractions.

Note of course that all this applies to adults as well as children. It's just even tougher a call with children involved.

Click to expand...

Nope. Makes no difference to me if they were going to win. And I would be willing to bet that in just about ANY tournament setting, the spike mark rule gets overlooked. It would be no different then you putting someone on the clock. This is a father and son day. Sure its tournament golf, but in the lightest sense of the phrase. The only goal in these is to have fun and try hard. The stickler rules guy has no place in these settings...In my opinion.

I say that saying that you did nothing wrong, but I think its over the top.

wadesworld said:

Ignoring the original kids-involved context of the thread for a moment, this is the problem with the rules though - they only work if they're consistently applied. If you allow a fellow-competitor to tamp down spike marks because you think the rule silly, the guy who missed two putts because of spike marks is the one who pays the price. Similarly, ignoring violations of that rule because you disagree with it is not really different than overlooking the fact someone rolled their ball over "just a bit" in the rough.

Perhaps the fact that the rules only work if consistently applied and the extreme unlikelihood of that happening in an amateur tournament is reason enough for us to just throw up our hands and decide that we can only win if we're 1-stroke better than everyone else, plus a few extra strokes for an inconsistency in the application of the rules. Perhaps tournament golf according to the rules of golf is achievable only in the professional ranks. Being the eternal optimist I am though, I prefer to believe it's a goal which is worth our continued pursuit. If I win a tournament, I want to KNOW I deserved the win. The same is true if I lose.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you should have asked for a rules official to walk every hole. I agree that rules are rules but I also feel that at a father/son outing you should be more worried about the fun you and your son are having and less about how they tap down spike marks. I mean honestly how many pros have you seen break a rule(Tiger) and not know. So how can you expect every father taking his son out golf to know? Perhaps the real issue is why do they make the rules of golf so complicated.

JB said:

Nope. Makes no difference to me if they were going to win. And I would be willing to bet that in just about ANY tournament setting, the spike mark rule gets overlooked. It would be no different then you putting someone on the clock. This is a father and son day. Sure its tournament golf, but in the lightest sense of the phrase. The only goal in these is to have fun and try hard. The stickler rules guy has no place in these settings...In my opinion.

I say that saying that you did nothing wrong, but I think its over the top.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. And that's pretty much why I didn't say anything.

jspangs said:

Perhaps you should have asked for a rules official to walk every hole. I agree that rules are rules but I also feel that at a father/son outing you should be more worried about the fun you and your son are having and less about how they tap down spike marks. I mean honestly how many pros have you seen break a rule(Tiger) and not know. So how can you expect every father taking his son out golf to know? Perhaps the real issue is why do they make the rules of golf so complicated.

Click to expand...

In replying to your post, I was talking about adult tournament golf, and specifically mentioned I wasn't talking about this father-son event.

I think the main thing coming out of the discussion though is that to most people, context DOES matter. Press down a spike mark in a father-son? No biggie. In a church charity tournament? Nope. In a Tuesday night league match? Maybe, maybe not. In a high school, college match or a USGA sectional? Absolute violation.

Like I said, I dont think you did anything wrong. In fact I think you handled it quite well considering the point of view. There will always be those that take it more seriously than others.

wadesworld said:

In replying to your post, I was talking about adult tournament golf, and specifically mentioned I wasn't talking about this father-son event.

I think the main thing coming out of the discussion though is that to most people, context DOES matter. Press down a spike mark in a father-son? No biggie. In a church charity tournament? Nope. In a Tuesday night league match? Maybe, maybe not. In a high school, college match or a USGA sectional? Absolute violation.

Click to expand...

Fair enough, I said you handled it perfectly. But for me I'm more easy going. And it doesn't bother me. As long is I'm and whoever I'm with is having fun.

For me the rules of golf are more bothersome.

I would never wanna be "that guy"

It's a father son tournament and unless the dad is blatantly having his child cheat or telling him its ok to cheat I would never mention it.

JB said:

Nope. Makes no difference to me if they were going to win. And I would be willing to bet that in just about ANY tournament setting, the spike mark rule gets overlooked. It would be no different then you putting someone on the clock. This is a father and son day. Sure its tournament golf, but in the lightest sense of the phrase. The only goal in these is to have fun and try hard. The stickler rules guy has no place in these settings...In my opinion.

I say that saying that you did nothing wrong, but I think its over the top.

Click to expand...

Very good point(s).