2nd Greatest QB this Century???
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2018
- Messages
- 16,230
- Reaction score
- 4,352
- Location
- Edmond, Oklahoma (NW OKC)
- Handicap
- -10.0
Very good point. Come talk to me in 81 years. Heck, Brady might not even be in the top 3 by then, much less #2.
We will have to agree to disagree. The thing is I am not a Colts or Broncos fan yet you are a huge PatsFan (see what I did there?). I think that makes me a little more impartial. I don’t care about AFC championships, Super Bowls, or even toilet bowls. You can have the greatest QB to ever pick up a ball but if the rest of the team flat out blows then they won’t win a thing. You can also have a mediocre QB and win a Super Bowl as has happened many times.
When it all comes down to it, there has never been another QB that has the flat out knowledge of the game and the abilities of Peyton Manning.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
jhtr20
Well-known member
Considering Brady and Rodgers at the top of their game (or even just this year), I can't think of another team in the league where their having Brady would make them better than Rodgers would.
Actually think Rodgers' mobility adds to the tool-chest and therefore the result.
Unless you start thinking about the soft skills, working with the coach and being a teammate. Even James Harrison said Brady is the ultimate teammate. QBs have to be more than athletes, if that were true Cam Newton would be #1. They need to lead, inspire, encourage and sometimes reprimand their teammates and take **** from their coach. I think these areas Brady is one of the two best in the league, the other being Brees. I have no idea how hard Payton rides Brees but Bill certainly rides Tom.
moosejaa
Mr. Inconsistent
Rodgers has put up numbers better than Brady so far into his career, and that's in spite of having McCarthy as his coach pretty much the entire time. Brady has even said Rodgers would throw for 7,000 yards if he played for the Pats.
All true.
I'd still take Rodgers.
For similar reasons, I'd also consider Steve Young over Brady. For pure arm talent, probably Dan Marino.I absolutely concede that Brady is the GOAT, his record demands that. Cumulatively his career is beyond comparison.
It's just, from the mindset of evaluating skill-set and displayed ability wrt their individual success, I don't believe him to be the greatest.
Kind of how I view Emmitt Smith. His stats certainly put him the argument of GOAT. His ability, performance and durability were clearly sensational.
But considering those who I watched, I'd take Barry and Eric Dickerson over him. Maybe a few more too.
moosejaa
Mr. Inconsistent
Very well said and completely agree, Rodgers and Sanders all day.All true.
I'd still take Rodgers.For similar reasons, I'd also consider Steve Young over Brady. For pure arm talent, probably Dan Marino.
I absolutely concede that Brady is the GOAT, his record demands that. Cumulatively his career is beyond comparison.
It's just, from the mindset of evaluating skill-set and displayed ability wrt their individual success, I don't believe him to be the greatest.
Kind of how I view Emmitt Smith. His stats certainly put him the argument of GOAT. His ability, performance and durability were clearly sensational.
But considering those who I watched, I'd take Barry and Eric Dickerson over him. Maybe a few more too.
DG_1234
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2015
- Messages
- 6,211
- Reaction score
- 1,931
- Handicap
- 2
All true.
I'd still take Rodgers.
I absolutely concede that Brady is the GOAT, his record demands that. Cumulatively his career is beyond comparison.
It's just, from the mindset of evaluating skill-set and displayed ability wrt their individual success, I don't believe him to be the greatest.
Kind of how I view Emmitt Smith. His stats certainly put him the argument of GOAT. His ability, performance and durability were clearly sensational.
But considering those who I watched, I'd take Barry and Eric Dickerson over him. Maybe a few more too.
Steve Young was an amazing QB. My first impressions of him were that he could run with the ball like an excellent running back, including speed, moves, and toughness breaking tackles In his younger days Young's passes were thrown with such velocity-speed that sometimes receivers .struggled to catch his passes (similar to Elway in his younger days). I think Young learned much sitting on the 49ers bench, so when he finally received the opportunity to play he combined his natural running skills, with excellent pocket presence and ability to look at multiple receivers, and a capacity to either throw penetrating lasers or soft touch passes. Young is a Hall of Fame QB but also underrated.
AcushnetGolf
Semper Fidelas
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2018
- Messages
- 1,091
- Reaction score
- 117
- Location
- Acushnet, Massachusetts
- Handicap
- Good enoug
I'm from Mass and reading through this thread is awesome. Obviously everyone around here thinks he is the greatest but looking at opinions from around the country it is still up for debate. I think they draft off of skills and that's why he was a 6th round pick. Bill Belichick created everyone in that system. He is a winner though and special. Bump Edelman and Gronk off the line for 5 yards and Brady watch Brady lose his cool. Only way to beat them. Need to disrupt the quick 3 yard passes
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Didn't make playoffs again? Rodgers played like 6 games in 2017. And GB made the playoffs 8 years in a row before that.
GB cannot win without him. They are brutally bad. Pats went 14-6 when Brady has been injured or suspended. That's pretty damn compelling to me.
Loads of respect for Brady. Maybe GOAT. But anyone who discredits Rodgers is delusional.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
I find it a touch odd that grown men feel this strongly about other grown men that competitively to hug each to the ground.
I saw this as a Packers fan.
I saw this as a Packers fan.
Sanzabar
Oh So Colt!
This right here is why a lot of folks think that Patriot fans are delusional. Oh wait, also, because most of them showed up when Brady got good.
I hope it was a poor attempt at a joke when you asked if Peyton was the best QB in his family. Either way, you swung and missed with it.
2nd best QB of this generation, IMO, is Peyton. As a diehard Colts fan, I give the nod to Brady. The length of time doing it, the wins year after year, the SBs, etc. The guy shows up when it matters most.
Do I think Brady is the most talented pure thrower of the football, not even close.. Give me Marino, Manning, Rodgers, Brees over him for sure when it comes to a pure passer. Being an incredible pure passer doesn’t make you the best ever, IMO. Do I think those guys would have the same wins if they were on these Patriot teams, probably so, but we don’t live in a world of if’s.
I think you can make an argument for a lot of guys and I don’t think there is a wrong answer. It’s a fun debate. Would I take Tom of Peyton, as a Colts fan, not on any planet and not on any Sunday. Do I think Peyton is the best ever, nope!
rollin
"Just playin golf pally"
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2012
- Messages
- 12,619
- Reaction score
- 1,113
- Location
- planet earth, milky way galaxy
- Handicap
- 15.7
not knocking young at all. But be careful with the "looking at multiple receiver ability" . So many fans think great QB's look at 3, 4 receivers one after the other. And its just not true. They look at the defense while down and at the line of scrimmage and once it starts moving after the snap. Its a sixth sense sort of football thing of knowing where to go with the ball based on that combined with knowing your receivers routs. Broken plays and extended plays and blown coverage plays aside...very often its one receiver once that dee is assessed and enough times certainly a second but rarer is it a third as by that time its usually a check down to a back if they aren't already in trouble themselves and virtually never is it a 4th.
Then you have the back shoulder pass, the 2 step drop, the sideline scrimage pass, and the go up and get it (to a real good and tall jumper), and also the bomb down the sideline, and all of those plays are almost always a one receiver play. Recently I heard Phil sims talk of just this thing and he was laughing as he spoke of announcers who tell of how the given QB is finding 3rd and 4th receivers. He was like "you know how many times I found a 4th in my entire career?" …"like maybe twice in my entire career".
You just don't have that kid of time. It doesn't work that way.
DG_1234
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2015
- Messages
- 6,211
- Reaction score
- 1,931
- Handicap
- 2
I think Steve Young learned how to look at multiple receivers from his several years of watching Joe Montana play the QB position.
- Thread starter
- #116
Yes I was joking about Peyton, Sarcasm folks!!
I thought this would be a great debate. I am Boggled that people would put Aaron Rodgers ahead of Manning and I would probably take Brees ahead of Rodgers.
I'm not a Bandwagon Fan I was there when we won 1 game. Now my Kids only know Superbowls and World Series.
I thought this would be a great debate. I am Boggled that people would put Aaron Rodgers ahead of Manning and I would probably take Brees ahead of Rodgers.
I'm not a Bandwagon Fan I was there when we won 1 game. Now my Kids only know Superbowls and World Series.
rollin
"Just playin golf pally"
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2012
- Messages
- 12,619
- Reaction score
- 1,113
- Location
- planet earth, milky way galaxy
- Handicap
- 15.7
Boggled is imo bit much of a term to use. I mean its not like we are talking two different worlds of QB's between the two. I think its quite normal to find different opinion when talking the same caliber of player HOF worthy.
rollin
"Just playin golf pally"
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2012
- Messages
- 12,619
- Reaction score
- 1,113
- Location
- planet earth, milky way galaxy
- Handicap
- 15.7
Im saying its not really possible to look at 3 or certainly 4 receivers. Its an ability to absorb (see) the field via what the Dee is doing before the snap and then as the play begins to unfold and knowing the routs. that is part of what makes a better QB than another. QB's contrary to myth are not looking off the 1st, then to the second, then to the 3rd then to the fourth. Thats what we did as kids in the school yard while someone counted Mississippi's .....lol the good old days how time flies
its bittersweet .The look off is once maybe often enough a second if that in itself isnt a check down or the rarer 3rd is often the checkdown. A 4th some have never done. By the time he would look for even a 3rd if hadnt checked it down yet he's usually in trouble by then. Except for a broken play, an extended play, etc...and on extended plays receivers are off their routs and just coming back trying to help.
Agree and disagree with the assessment of 3rd and 4th receiver as by design, beyond the hot read and 2nd anything else is a check down. So to dismiss it as merely that, a check down, is discounting the reads made to necessitate it.
I played QB and it was only DIII but I can promise you that there are set progressions. Nothing can ever be written in stone as any defense will disguise coverages, blitz, etc, and every play is fluid.
Basically there's a pre-snap read that's facilitated by sending a man in motion to determine man vs zone coverage. From that and whether CBs are up in press coverage or off the ball, a hot read is determined. A previously intended primary receiver can be instantly flipped by this read. For plays designed as quick hits, the hot read gets more weight of course. With the advent of the zone blitz, it's not the given it once was though. For mid to deep QB drops, the intent is of course for a deeper pass so the read on the safety and your ability to hold him by looking him off is key. That read must be quick and decisive in order to check down to your 2nd option if need be who is more often running a somewhat shorter route. LB positioning and safety help is key to that read. It is entirely possible to check down off of him toward a 3rd, usually a crossing pattern or finally dumping off to your 4th option, most often a RB previously helping in pass protection who peels off to the flat.
When watching the best QBs on TV, its easy to see that they survey the field on their drop and trust me, the greats are taking it all in. They can see the flow of a defense like no other and cycle through their reads extremely quickly. They'll even goad safety coverage one way to come back to their previously abandoned primary. It may appear like it was their intent all along but mostly it's their working through their progressions and feeling the coverage sliding one way to offer the opportunity. So their original primary who they returned to is actually their 3rd read.
Obviously protection is key but don't kid yourself due to Simms' humility, they're seeing it all and when things are clicking, they're making reads of multiple receivers from primary on down.
I played QB and it was only DIII but I can promise you that there are set progressions. Nothing can ever be written in stone as any defense will disguise coverages, blitz, etc, and every play is fluid.
Basically there's a pre-snap read that's facilitated by sending a man in motion to determine man vs zone coverage. From that and whether CBs are up in press coverage or off the ball, a hot read is determined. A previously intended primary receiver can be instantly flipped by this read. For plays designed as quick hits, the hot read gets more weight of course. With the advent of the zone blitz, it's not the given it once was though. For mid to deep QB drops, the intent is of course for a deeper pass so the read on the safety and your ability to hold him by looking him off is key. That read must be quick and decisive in order to check down to your 2nd option if need be who is more often running a somewhat shorter route. LB positioning and safety help is key to that read. It is entirely possible to check down off of him toward a 3rd, usually a crossing pattern or finally dumping off to your 4th option, most often a RB previously helping in pass protection who peels off to the flat.
When watching the best QBs on TV, its easy to see that they survey the field on their drop and trust me, the greats are taking it all in. They can see the flow of a defense like no other and cycle through their reads extremely quickly. They'll even goad safety coverage one way to come back to their previously abandoned primary. It may appear like it was their intent all along but mostly it's their working through their progressions and feeling the coverage sliding one way to offer the opportunity. So their original primary who they returned to is actually their 3rd read.
Obviously protection is key but don't kid yourself due to Simms' humility, they're seeing it all and when things are clicking, they're making reads of multiple receivers from primary on down.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #121
Interesting stat I heard today.
IF and its a BIG IF Tom Brady reaches the SB he will have more SB appearances than Aaron Rodgers has PLAYOFF WINS.
Crazy right???
IF and its a BIG IF Tom Brady reaches the SB he will have more SB appearances than Aaron Rodgers has PLAYOFF WINS.
Crazy right???
Yup. Whew... imagine Rodgers blowing the top off the record book if he was with Belichick and in that offense? His mobility would've beaten the Giants, too. Twice. Undefeated season, baby!!
So when you think of it, Brady kinda robbed them of some extraordinary history. LOL...
rollin
"Just playin golf pally"
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2012
- Messages
- 12,619
- Reaction score
- 1,113
- Location
- planet earth, milky way galaxy
- Handicap
- 15.7
Yup. Whew... imagine Rodgers blowing the top off the record book if he was with Belichick and in that offense? His mobility would've beaten the Giants, too. Twice. Undefeated season, baby!!
So when you think of it, Brady kinda robbed them of some extraordinary history. LOL...
hehehehe...…..I love it
Yea, and Rogers probably would have beaten even the second year Mark Sanchez (Mr butt fumble himself) who beat brady in the playoffs with a foot fetish coach.
Last edited:
I actually think that stat is wrong; it would be tied at 9. But it's still an impressive stat, nonetheless.
Funny thing about championships, no one considers Bill Russell or Bart Starr the GOAT.
Last edited:
Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman also wouldn't ever be seriously considered.
Brady is the GOAT and he'd be a success anywhere. But even Belichick said that they didn't see any magic in him as a prospect. They did see attributes that would potentially fit nicely into what they wanted to do.
They got that along with magic. Yet for all of his achievements and his barely disputable status as GOAT, many would still say there were better quarterbacks out there (in a universal sense as to talents/displayed ability) projected within any number of NFL caliber offenses.