AcushnetGolf
Semper Fidelas
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Lol.....that sums up my picks also. Maybe throw Kobe as a 6th man.
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Greatest basketball player of all time
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MonroeBob1955
Well-known member
A fun discussion to follow. I agree with many about today’s no-defense NBA. If LeBron played anytime from the 50s to the 80s, he’d have spent far more time on his back. Thank you Laimbeer.
Having watched everyone that’s been discussed to this point, Jordan is also in my book the GOAT. He had a phenomenal impact both on and off the court. Fifteen seconds left and there’s no one I’d rather put the ball in their hands. He made all the players around him better than they actually were.
Chamberlain was incredible. His skills, moves, and passing ability were enhanced by his time with the Harlem Globetrotters. 100 points in a game may never be matched.
Pure scorer has to be Kareem. His over 38,000 points still stands to this day. And he didn’t know what a three pointer was. His sky hook was a thing of beauty and virtually unstoppable.
Jerry West and Oscar Robertson were my favorite guards to watch by far. Magic was good, but in my opinion not in their class.
Talking about the greats, I have to throw in Karl Malone. So fun to watch speed and power. I loved the power forwards of the time.
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Having watched everyone that’s been discussed to this point, Jordan is also in my book the GOAT. He had a phenomenal impact both on and off the court. Fifteen seconds left and there’s no one I’d rather put the ball in their hands. He made all the players around him better than they actually were.
Chamberlain was incredible. His skills, moves, and passing ability were enhanced by his time with the Harlem Globetrotters. 100 points in a game may never be matched.
Pure scorer has to be Kareem. His over 38,000 points still stands to this day. And he didn’t know what a three pointer was. His sky hook was a thing of beauty and virtually unstoppable.
Jerry West and Oscar Robertson were my favorite guards to watch by far. Magic was good, but in my opinion not in their class.
Talking about the greats, I have to throw in Karl Malone. So fun to watch speed and power. I loved the power forwards of the time.
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As a Celtics fan it kills me to say this... but it's MJ. Bird gets greatest trash talker of all time though! Bird elevated everyone around him in a way that no one else has in my opinion.
Quickstrike
Well-known member
As a Lakers fan, I've got to say Duncan was a better player than Shaq. He was so fundamentally sound and a joy to watch even though I disliked him and the Spurs.
Best I've seen is Jordan...
Best I've seen is Jordan...
CobraX51
F-ck Yeah Baby!
Not at all. But I never saw Bill play.
If people want to say he’s the GOAT, be my guest.
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Magic without a doubt. Only player to play all 5 positions in one game
After reading plenty of articles yesterday I was blown away but just how athletic Wilt was... ( doesn't change my opinion of believing MJ was the greatest ever)... but reading that Wilt used to workout with Arnold was pretty cool and could bench 500 lbs. I highly doubt Wilt had a 55" vertical like some of the articles mentioned, but being an elite high jumper and shot putter was news to me. I already knew he was in the volleyball hall of fame as well but some stories recall Wilt's stomach would be over the net when spiking the ball!!
DonJuan
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Yeah, this is less of a debate than some would make it. It's MJ. Everyone knows it's MJ, except for the guys who just need to be different just because. Russell was playing against haberdashers and shoe cobblers. Kareem is the only other player who has an argument.
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It’s Jordan hands down, there is no debate. The rest of the top 10 fully up for debate and Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem, Robinson(D and O), Shaq, Duncan. Etc etc. As for competitive drive and trash talking good luck ever beating Bird and Jordan.
I have a soft spot in my heart for Magic. He was transcendent.
I have grudging respect for Bird. He was light years better than the old white guy he’s mostly remembered as.
The numbers don’t lie, but I just haven’t seen enough of LeBron to believe it’s him.
To me it’s MJ and it’s not especially close. He was so insanely dominant and he did it in an era when defenders could mug people.
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I have grudging respect for Bird. He was light years better than the old white guy he’s mostly remembered as.
The numbers don’t lie, but I just haven’t seen enough of LeBron to believe it’s him.
To me it’s MJ and it’s not especially close. He was so insanely dominant and he did it in an era when defenders could mug people.
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Wilt , they changed the rules because of him
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mikestar
Member
Former Celtics season ticket holder and big hoops guy here:
Jordan>Russell>Wilt>Bird>Kareem>Oscar
Kobe is up there for me. Lebron gets demerits for being a bad teammate and a worse GM lol. Had Bill Walton stayed healthy he could've been in the mix.
Met Walton at a Dead show. His biceps seemed to be the size of my head. Not just tall, but big.
Jordan>Russell>Wilt>Bird>Kareem>Oscar
Kobe is up there for me. Lebron gets demerits for being a bad teammate and a worse GM lol. Had Bill Walton stayed healthy he could've been in the mix.
Met Walton at a Dead show. His biceps seemed to be the size of my head. Not just tall, but big.
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I really dislike Lebron's persona. He won me back for a while when he went back to Cleveland and won a championship for his home town, but to just ditch out and go to the Lakers is so cliche'. He could have been a hero forever in Cleveland, in LA he will never win enough to get out of Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Abdul_Jabar, or James Worthy's shadow. He is going to end his career as a man without a town or any real fan support. I couldn't think of a better way to destroy a legacy than the actions he has taken. All that said he is a great basketball player, but I agree he is at least #2 because I watched them both play and I would rather have Jordan than Lebron all day.
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PG Magic ..................... Can't put West or Oscar ahead of Magic, he had their PG skills, but could do so much more with his size and post skills.
SG Jordan .................... No Contest, the GOAT
SF Lebron ..................... Don't like the guy, but will go with him here
PF Bird ......................... Agree here too
C Abdul Jabaar or Shaq .. Wilt here for me, Jabaar is in the running, but Shaq wouldn't even be on the bench
6th Man Dr J ................. Could you just imagine Dr J, in his prime, on the court with these guys! The heights he and MJ could have pushed each other too would have been something.
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Went to a Pacers/Celtics game a couple weeks ago with my son and Larry Bird was setting several rows in front of us by the court. My son knew he was a legend, but thought he was just a good shooter. I explained Larry bird is the best 1/2 court offensive player to ever play the game. He was definitely a top 5 shooter all time, but he was one of the best passers of all time too. He could also use his hip to keep people away from the ball to allow himself to get in the paint. Not to mention his court vision and awareness were the best ever. He had a sixth sense for creating space that was unlike anyone to ever play the game. He was playing chess in the 1/2 court offense while everyone else was playing checkers.
In the modern game switch Steph for Kareem and that team is unbeatable
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Jordan
next question
next question
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It’s just a different league all together. I was lucky to sit on the floor last week at a NBA game and the lack of physicality is just so apparent especially at that distance. The 3 point game today just isn’t the same regardless of your opinion of it. So many wide open layups and drives that were turned away so someone could shoot a corner 3. Unless you see Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, or Steph Curry standing there wide open, you gotta drive the ball. The whole sense of creating super teams and all the players being friends rather than rivals just has a totally different feel. I still love an intimidating hard foul, clean, but a hard foul now that type of intensity gets you T2 and breathing on someone is a foul.
darthweasel
Well-known member
how did you come up with this answer? (I picked this one to ask this on because some of the others on here have caused outright laughter, this one is very defensible).
Is it win shares?
Raw statistics?
Stats per 36?
# of championships won?
team performance with him on the floor?
The question of who is the greatest tends to end up being an emotional question rather than a rational one. Few people name LeBron James...yet noted stat geek Kevin Pelton showed statistically that LeBron had contributed more to championships than Jordan did. In 2016. More win shares as well.
Yet so many of these metrics are deeply flawed in one way or another. One site I frequent bows at the alter of per 36. This is a deeply flawed approach; someone playing on the 7 Seconds or Less Suns would have 30% more possessions over the course of a season than the Brandon Roy led shot clock milking Blazers. Showtime Lakers versus the half court Celtics. Etc.
How about WAR? Jordan had a mind blowing 344. LeBron had 372...in 2016.
We then often hear the mythical "if player x had played with the rules player y is under, he would have done z"
There actually was a study done that looked into this. How did a player perform relative to his peers? If a guy plays in an era where teams are averaging 90 a game and rolls out 30 points per game, does that have more meaning than a guy scoring 30 when teams average 112 a game? Team on off splits, plus minus, war, per 36, Win Shares...there are a lot of metrics.
I was a huge Jordan mark. It broke my heart when he took umbrage to people putting Clyde the Glide in the same conversation and went and just absolutely obliterated him in the finals. Humiliated him, really. But I loved it when he did it to the Lakers and to this day I glory in the ball fake/lay in with the left hand moved the Lakers whined about him showing them up...
At the same time I remember how people talked about him and Pippen being "#1 and #1a" players. Three times Jordan was not even the best player on his own team statistically speaking amongst advanced stats such as win shares.
Thing is, if someone wants Jordan as their choice, it is a reasonable one...not backed up by stats of course, but nevertheless a reasonable one. Same as if someone wants James or Chamberlain, I saw one person make a pretty convincing case for Julius Erving of all people...but it absolutely requires some explanation. Some explanations have validity...I will take the "6 rings going against hall of famers in the finals" argument over the "played all the positions". By that metric, Jose Oquendo is the greatest baseball player of all time and I am willing to bet the majority of people on this board have never heard of him. I will listen to the "x number of MVPs' but off the top of my head, Jordan and James have both been robbed of MVPs due to voter fatigue.
But the whole "my guy is the greatest, next question" thing just is so far from accurate it requires a bit of investigation.
I would take Russell over Wilt. We are talking about the greatest player not the Greatest scorer (on and off the court).
Magic Played with a Team of All stars and atleast 4-5 hall of famers.
Jordan is the greatest, next question is VERY accurate. Also Jordan seems to be the majority of answers given to the topic. I didn't see many that were very laughable except for you bringing up Clyde the Glide. Do you really dislike Jordan because he beat Portland's only decent team?
Jordan was a complete player. He imposed his will on others on both ends of the court. If you challenged him he worked harder to crush you. And he dominated the NBA when it was at its competitive peak. The modern game is a joke and Wilt played against bums.
The answer to this question is so obvious you should be questioning all other answers. BTW, what was your answer?
Magic made them better.I would take Russell over Wilt. We are talking about the greatest player not the Greatest scorer (on and off the court).
Magic Played with a Team of All stars and atleast 4-5 hall of famers.
darthweasel
Well-known member
Not sure if you did not read what I wrote or did not comprehend it. So I will break it down slowly and clearly.
I said, and repeat, "I was a huge Jordan mark."
That means "I was a huge Jordan fan." Smurf, I used to stick my tongue out when I was going to drive just like he did. He was amazing to watch play. On both ends.
I also said, and repeat, "...he took umbrage to people putting Clyde the Glide in the same conversation...". I did not say me. So lets cycle back. The Blazers, 2 years prior, had faced the Jordan nemesis Pistons in the Finals, getting there before Jordan. His legend was growing but not normally formed. The next year Jordan got his first title. Then the Blazers and Bulls were facing each other. There was a video game featuring Jordan and Clyde on the cover. Talking heads looked at their stats, where Jordan was better across the board, and yes, the conversation nationally was along the lines of Jordan is better but Clyde is very close. After that series those conversations stopped as Jordan would destroy him in that match-up including his classic hands out shoulder shrug at his 3-point prowess, go on to win the next title as well and three more later on. Jordan spoke openly about his motivation. He delivered on it.
Your ignorance of the guys Wilt played against is astonishing. Here is a short list for you: Hall of Fame Centers Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, Artis Gilmore, Bob Lainer, Walt Bellamy, Wes Unseld and Dave Cowens. Have seen that list a few places so did not attribute it but it is easy to find. 9 hall of famers in a smaller league. He played them more often. Meanwhile, lets look back at the shooting guards Jordan faced in the finals.
So lets check who should be questioning their answer?
Several people brought up Kobe who often was not even the best player on his own team when O Neal was around, that is a good starting point. Others mentioned Bird, who had a fairly dominating 80s yet one could easily make the case Magic Johnson had a better one...if not for the existence of Jabbar who was better than Magic.
In the past I used to argue Jordan was the greatest but in truth, there is no way he is. There is not one statistical measurement he comes out ahead in.
Raw stats such as points, rebounds, assists he falls behind others in every category. Advanced stats he falls even further behind. Number of titles? His contemporary Rick Fox had more. Bill Russell is the all time leader.
So if we go with points, Jordan loses to Chamberlain as one obvious answer.
If we go rebounds, and Jordan was a great rebounder for a guard, he loses to hundreds of players who were great rebounders without the qualifier.
If we go assists and Jordan was a great passer for a shooting guard, he loses to a lot of guys who were great assisters flat out.
Combo 2 or three of them together and he comes out behind numerous guys as well.
Change it to per 36. He falls further behind.
Change it to per 100 possessions. Again, not Jordan.
Add in plus minus, on off splits, Jordan comes up short again and again and again.
Most titles? Nope, tied for 10th place.
Most titles in a row? Nope.
Most MVPs? Nope.
Funny thing is, when I started looking into it this time around, I actually thought it would come down to Chamberlain, Jordan, or Lebron, and most likely in that order. The more I looked into it, Jordan is actually not even top three from any statistical measurement, whether raw or advanced stats.
WAR, Win Shares, Jordan comes out behind multiple guys.
Sadly, the more I look into it, the more I believe a guy I cannot stand as a player from a team I hate more than any other actually has a claim to the throne, but you seldom hear him mentioned because this is for many people an emotional argument. Man, I would have loved to see the greatest of all time in his prime when I was in my prime. That would have been Jordan for me. But when you actually start looking at the numbers, a really, really solid case can be made for...and oh it hurts to type this...Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. You can also make solid cases for Chamberlain and James, and statistically, all three of them finish ahead of Jordan. In the only area Jordan beats those two, he loses to Jabbar and Russell.
So to sum up your argument, who is the greatest of all time? Not Jordan. Anybody who claims it is should be questioning their answer. Next question.
And I fell asleep reading yet another really long post. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
CobraX51
F-ck Yeah Baby!
/thread