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Greatest basketball player of all time

darthweasel said:
Not sure if you did not read what I wrote or did not comprehend it. So I will break it down slowly and clearly.

I said, and repeat, "I was a huge Jordan mark."

That means "I was a huge Jordan fan." Smurf, I used to stick my tongue out when I was going to drive just like he did. He was amazing to watch play. On both ends.

I also said, and repeat, "...he took umbrage to people putting Clyde the Glide in the same conversation...". I did not say me. So lets cycle back. The Blazers, 2 years prior, had faced the Jordan nemesis Pistons in the Finals, getting there before Jordan. His legend was growing but not normally formed. The next year Jordan got his first title. Then the Blazers and Bulls were facing each other. There was a video game featuring Jordan and Clyde on the cover. Talking heads looked at their stats, where Jordan was better across the board, and yes, the conversation nationally was along the lines of Jordan is better but Clyde is very close. After that series those conversations stopped as Jordan would destroy him in that match-up including his classic hands out shoulder shrug at his 3-point prowess, go on to win the next title as well and three more later on. Jordan spoke openly about his motivation. He delivered on it.

Your ignorance of the guys Wilt played against is astonishing. Here is a short list for you: Hall of Fame Centers Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, Artis Gilmore, Bob Lainer, Walt Bellamy, Wes Unseld and Dave Cowens. Have seen that list a few places so did not attribute it but it is easy to find. 9 hall of famers in a smaller league. He played them more often. Meanwhile, lets look back at the shooting guards Jordan faced in the finals.

So lets check who should be questioning their answer?

Several people brought up Kobe who often was not even the best player on his own team when O Neal was around, that is a good starting point. Others mentioned Bird, who had a fairly dominating 80s yet one could easily make the case Magic Johnson had a better one...if not for the existence of Jabbar who was better than Magic.


In the past I used to argue Jordan was the greatest but in truth, there is no way he is. There is not one statistical measurement he comes out ahead in.

Raw stats such as points, rebounds, assists he falls behind others in every category. Advanced stats he falls even further behind. Number of titles? His contemporary Rick Fox had more. Bill Russell is the all time leader.

So if we go with points, Jordan loses to Chamberlain as one obvious answer.
If we go rebounds, and Jordan was a great rebounder for a guard, he loses to hundreds of players who were great rebounders without the qualifier.
If we go assists and Jordan was a great passer for a shooting guard, he loses to a lot of guys who were great assisters flat out.
Combo 2 or three of them together and he comes out behind numerous guys as well.

Change it to per 36. He falls further behind.
Change it to per 100 possessions. Again, not Jordan.
Add in plus minus, on off splits, Jordan comes up short again and again and again.

Most titles? Nope, tied for 10th place.
Most titles in a row? Nope.
Most MVPs? Nope.


Funny thing is, when I started looking into it this time around, I actually thought it would come down to Chamberlain, Jordan, or Lebron, and most likely in that order. The more I looked into it, Jordan is actually not even top three from any statistical measurement, whether raw or advanced stats.

WAR, Win Shares, Jordan comes out behind multiple guys.

Sadly, the more I look into it, the more I believe a guy I cannot stand as a player from a team I hate more than any other actually has a claim to the throne, but you seldom hear him mentioned because this is for many people an emotional argument. Man, I would have loved to see the greatest of all time in his prime when I was in my prime. That would have been Jordan for me. But when you actually start looking at the numbers, a really, really solid case can be made for...and oh it hurts to type this...Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. You can also make solid cases for Chamberlain and James, and statistically, all three of them finish ahead of Jordan. In the only area Jordan beats those two, he loses to Jabbar and Russell.

So to sum up your argument, who is the greatest of all time? Not Jordan. Anybody who claims it is should be questioning their answer. Next question.
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What in the what??? First of all, stats alone do not tell the full story of anyone's greatness; there are always intangible measures that cannot be reduced to nerd numbers. Second, you are wrong that "[t]here is not one statistical measurement [Jordan] comes out ahead in." Jordan is the all time leader in PPG--pretty much the first individual stat NBA fans turn to... AND that includes two years playing for the Wiz as an old man, which dropped that number significantly.
 
JMB3 said:
What in the what??? First of all, stats alone do not tell the full story of anyone's greatness; there are always intangible measures that cannot be reduced to nerd numbers. Second, you are wrong that "[t]here is not one statistical measurement [Jordan] comes out ahead in." Jordan is the all time leader in PPG--pretty much the first individual stat NBA fans turn to... AND that includes two years playing for the Wiz as an old man, which dropped that number significantly.
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Also, the all-time record for most "Win Shares" per 48 minutes is held by MJ, so...
 
JMB3 said:
What in the what??? First of all, stats alone do not tell the full story of anyone's greatness; there are always intangible measures that cannot be reduced to nerd numbers. Second, you are wrong that "[t]here is not one statistical measurement [Jordan] comes out ahead in." Jordan is the all time leader in PPG--pretty much the first individual stat NBA fans turn to... AND that includes two years playing for the Wiz as an old man, which dropped that number significantly.
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ah, I made the mistake of looking at NBA.com which has them both at 30.1. Okay, by a couple percentage points I was off I give you that.

Sop basically the argument is "I think so". Got it you win. that is indisputable. And I get the long post thing...information is boring and tends to contradict belief so well played sir.
 
milehighgolfer said:
And I fell asleep reading yet another really long post. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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I'm glad I'm not the only one!


I don't know who your comparing Jordan too?

If LeBron played when Jordan did and took the physical pounding that the players did back then I don't think he lasts as long long as he has.

I'm from Mass and love my Celtics but Mj is the Greatest I've ever seen. You can run your stats any way you want but I'll take MJ over any single player. HE'S A Winner.

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darthweasel said:
ah, I made the mistake of looking at NBA.com which has them both at 30.1. Okay, by a couple percentage points I was off I give you that.

Sop basically the argument is "I think so". Got it you win. that is indisputable. And I get the long post thing...information is boring and tends to contradict belief so well played sir.
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Haha, I appreciate the hustle. Made me look it up. And GOAT of anything will never have consensus, especially in team sports.

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JMB3 said:
Haha, I appreciate the hustle. Made me look it up. And GOAT of anything will never have consensus, especially in team sports.

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In any other sport the GOAT is debatable. NBA is Jordan by a mile.
 
It’s MJ and I won’t even entertain an argument otherwise. Haha! Lots of great players have come through the league, but none have done it the way his Airness did. Had the league not been so strong in the late 80’s and early 90’s with teams like the Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons that were filled with HOF’ers the ring count would be ^^^. Eventually Jordan and the Bulls beat all of them...
 
I don't know, I think I'd have to go with Meadowlark Lemon over anyone! I read that Wilt considered him the best ever, and I'm pretty sure he was undefeated over a ridiculously long career with the Harlem Globetrotters. If anyone would have been keeping stats, you know, just sayin. :drinks:
 
Never have been a fan of the NBA so I'm going College BB. Danny Manning.
 
OldeDude said:
I don't know, I think I'd have to go with Meadowlark Lemon over anyone! I read that Wilt considered him the best ever, and I'm pretty sure he was undefeated over a ridiculously long career with the Harlem Globetrotters. If anyone would have been keeping stats, you know, just sayin. :drinks:
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I actually saw where he said that and it was amazing. Fantastic reference. And honestly, in a debate that degenerates to "We do not need any facts, we make a statement that is demonstrably false and that makes it true" Wilt's claim to Meadowlark is every bit as valid and accurate and believable. If the guy who at last check still had 68 records nearly 50 years after he stopped playing cannot be believed, who can. The old appeal to authority is good enough for me now.
 
Jackie Moon

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