Direct to consumer ball news....
Did you read the Razor Test results? Occam's Razor finished behind a DTC razor brand which was a fraction of the cost.
And a question to this exact topic, posed by me to that other source, remains unaddressed.
erock9174
Well-known member
Direct to consumer ball news....
This got me to thinking.
It’s been mentioned a few times on here how these DTC balls performed differently on the recent ball test and how it could be contradictory. If you take a bit of a deeper dive a few things stuck out to me.
Using the tableau charts I extracted the DTC balls with a filter of 7i and 100 mph swing speed.
There were 4 balls that seemed to chart very closely in terms of Ball Speed, Compression, Launch Angle and Backspin. Compressions are listed below:
MTB Black - 105
Cut Blue - 106
Vice Pro Plus - 106
Vice Pro - 103
Sorry for the poor quality pic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This got me to thinking.
It’s been mentioned a few times on here how these DTC balls performed differently on the recent ball test and how it could be contradictory. If you take a bit of a deeper dive a few things stuck out to me.
Using the tableau charts I extracted the DTC balls with a filter of 7i and 100 mph swing speed.
There were 4 balls that seemed to chart very closely in terms of Ball Speed, Compression, Launch Angle and Backspin. Compressions are listed below:
MTB Black - 105
Cut Blue - 106
Vice Pro Plus - 106
Vice Pro - 103
Sorry for the poor quality pic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This got me to thinking.
It’s been mentioned a few times on here how these DTC balls performed differently on the recent ball test and how it could be contradictory. If you take a bit of a deeper dive a few things stuck out to me.
Using the tableau charts I extracted the DTC balls with a filter of 7i and 100 mph swing speed.
There were 4 balls that seemed to chart very closely in terms of Ball Speed, Compression, Launch Angle and Backspin. Compressions are listed below:
MTB Black - 105
Cut Blue - 106
Vice Pro Plus - 106
Vice Pro - 103
Sorry for the poor quality pic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What's really interesting is one of those dots in the group with similar compression hasn't been talked about at all, other than in a winner's circle.
I have tried several of the DTC balls and most were fine. Except for the Cut Red, which was garbage.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Basically defines the error bars for that test, IMO...
jjfcpa
Active member
Is the dimple patter the same?
pilot25
Active member
- Thread starter
- #84
So to unpack this. Yes, the Vice case was filed in 2015. In fact it was Vice, Zim, Dixon, Kick X, Lightening, Monsta, Rife, Vail Roberts, I Need The Ball, Nexen, and Arvia. The Costco case was a separate filing. If both cases were settled, I'll take that at face value because I don't have the time to care or figure out if it was. I assumed it was filed recently. I have played golf for 40 years but only recently have cared one iota about equipment. Haven't bought balls or clubs for 15 years. Imagine you went into a time warp for several years, walked into a shop and said fit me. That's where I'm at. None of these DTC brands were popular up until recently and I would like to know where my money goes and what I'm getting. I'm also someone who has had to deal with personal patent infringement so I have a soft heart for Titleist because I know how many sleepless nights, time away from family, effort, and money goes into a product only to have it pilfered by the likes of people like the Vice duo, Costco or whomever else. Yes, I think the Vice boys are sleezy. They look sleezy and clearly have acted without moral fiber by taking what isn't rightfully theirs. Just because Acushnet dropped the case didn't mean they weren't in the right. There is a whole host of crap in dealing with patent litigation and sometimes its better to throw in the towel. I guarantee Acushnet lawyers know what they are doing and know the right path to take for their company. They aren't filing frivolous expensive lawsuits for the fun of it.
Manufacturing oversees completely avoids liability depending on the country. Example is the furniture manufacturer in NC who designed and made kitchen, dining room, and other like tables for sale with many of the big names like Pottery Barn. A Chinese company, which is essentially their govt. took their design made identical tables, save quality, and resold them in the States putting the US manufacturer out of business. They had zero international protections despite their design was protected within US law. Not to get political but this is the basis of the "trade" war we are currently in but on a grander intellectual property level. So your all encompassing statement of manufacturing overseas if off base depending on what the trade agreement is with said country.
That being said, Acushnet's latest 10k filing doesn't list current litigation expenses so I'm not sure how you know what their litigation fees (I would revise to say attorney fees) would be YOY. I'm not sure it would state as such other than being listed in "administrative costs." There is always someone suing you or you are suing someone in a business the size of Acushnet. I have no doubts they have a large legal dept just like any other fortune 500. Just because they haven't filed with the courts in home Delaware or applicable state doesn't mean legal work isn't happening. There is an expense for it and is all built into the price of their products. If they have to go down the road like they did in 2015 costs go up and we will be paying for it with increased product prices if you want to continue to use their products. All because Vice and the like can't find it within themselves to play by the rules. Which is completely apropos for the gentleman's game of golf. Honest capitalist competition which benefits us wasn't happening with Vice, Costco, etc.
Last edited:
pilot25
Active member
- Thread starter
- #85
What do you think these charts tell you? I saw them and believed them too but where is the underlying data? How were the balls tested? How many balls were tested? Where were the balls sourced from? Same place? Region of the US? How were they compressed? Did the environment change during testing?
Based on the other THP competitor website's testing, which has plenty of flaws on its own, it tells a different story. Additionally, their latest findings of the popular brands not being uniform within just a dozen should give anyone pause in golf ball "testing."
Reality is all these "sites" and magazines have sponsors and to be realistic no one is going to piss off their sponsors by slamming their products in testing. So before the testing begins its already flawed.
Based on that very graph, or something very very similar to it, I purchased a sleeve of CutBlue and was completely duped by it.
Beware of the internet and the "facts" it produces.
Last edited:
I tested the Cut Blue a couple years back and thought it had better stopping power with the irons than any other ball. Certainly had an excellent performance to cost ratio, I didn’t really care if they make other balls in the same place.
I contemplated a long response to this but I'll save my time and energy because it isn't going to move the ball along and I'm not about to get into something online, mostly because we appear to be in a game of change the topic. For example, patent litigation fees became general attorneys' fees - one of these I can say with a great deal of confidence [I pulled their whole IP docket] and one of these no one outside the company can address. Also, you brought up a "protected" design of a pottery barn table. If it was patented, there is a remedy for infringement under 35 USC 271 [pay extra attention to the quasi-extraterritorial powers under section (a) and (f)] and/or 19 USC 1337 et seq. If you are referring to another kind of "protection," that really isn't relevant to what we were discussing. Simply put, US patent law does not depend on any trade agreement. I'm not guessing on anything here.
ohthehumanity
Well-known member
Was that from Dollar Shave Club?
jjfcpa
Active member
Some lawsuits are filed as a deterrent to others who may be contemplating entering the market, not just for remedy.
I would also like to point out that I have tied more than one DTC ball and while it is difficult to find a great deal of difference between them, one ball does appear to stand out and that's the Snell. I did some work for a company that created various types of plastic containers based on specs provided by the customer. The company created molds which were then you to create the plastic products. Looking at the various products, you would have thought they were created by a number of different companies, but they were in fact created by one; however, the specs were individual for each. I kind of relate this to the golf balls from DTC companies. I have to think that they are providing specs that the manufacturer is using to create the balls. Not sure how this affects the quality or performance of the golf ball but I have to think the specifications provided by the DTC companies is more significant than the fact that the balls are being created by one company.
I would also like to point out that I have tied more than one DTC ball and while it is difficult to find a great deal of difference between them, one ball does appear to stand out and that's the Snell. I did some work for a company that created various types of plastic containers based on specs provided by the customer. The company created molds which were then you to create the plastic products. Looking at the various products, you would have thought they were created by a number of different companies, but they were in fact created by one; however, the specs were individual for each. I kind of relate this to the golf balls from DTC companies. I have to think that they are providing specs that the manufacturer is using to create the balls. Not sure how this affects the quality or performance of the golf ball but I have to think the specifications provided by the DTC companies is more significant than the fact that the balls are being created by one company.
Et Tu Brute?
Well-known member
Maybe Low-Price Parsimony Club?
P.S. See what I did there...two meanings of parsimony...aw shucks, never mind...
pilot25
Active member
- Thread starter
- #91
We are talking apples and oranges. One can not patent a table. Maybe it was a poor example of how a company can protect itself from US law by stealing a design and manufacturing the same product in China and turn around and sell it here. There is no protection. It happens in every industry. It has happened to my company and we are fighting a losing battle right now because of how international laws work with certain countries. Specifically China. Either way it really doesn't matter.
I personally have issues with companies infringing on patents and won't be getting my business. To each is own.
I will just drop in and say this. Does it really matter where or who makes a ball as long as it suits you? If it is the same ball stamped with different brand names, who cares? As long as you find it to be a good fit for your game at a price you are comfortable paying, take solace in the fact that you found something that works.
This isn't directed at anyone specific here. Just a general observation in regards to what, appears to me, to be a manufactured issue.
Edit to add: I completely understand the desire to buy American made however.
This isn't directed at anyone specific here. Just a general observation in regards to what, appears to me, to be a manufactured issue.
Edit to add: I completely understand the desire to buy American made however.
Id say its no big surprise considering that so many balls are made in South Korea now. I would question any ball company that doesnt seem to have any R&D department. IMO, Snell is probably different because Dean Snell knows just about everything there is to know about ball design and they probably build to his specifications.
Having your stuff made by Foremost isnt neccesarially a bad thing, Id bet that some well-respected companies have their products build by them.
This is one thing that always made me question Vice though. They claim that their balls are, "German engineered" but they are clearly made in South Korea. Im yet to see Vice have much of a visible R&D department and I always felt they were mostly just marketing hype.
Having your stuff made by Foremost isnt neccesarially a bad thing, Id bet that some well-respected companies have their products build by them.
This is one thing that always made me question Vice though. They claim that their balls are, "German engineered" but they are clearly made in South Korea. Im yet to see Vice have much of a visible R&D department and I always felt they were mostly just marketing hype.
This makes me wonder about whether, with the recent success of the MTB-X, we will see that design end up being "sticker engineered" by another company. I sure hope not.
Et Tu Brute?
Well-known member
Foremost is in Taiwan.
I meant Taiwan, sorry. Thank you for correcting me though.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
I mean, its certainly possible. You'd think that someone like Snell would protect his intellectual property though.
I'm really not sure what the laws are in Taiwan regarding that because Taiwan is technically part of China and China isn't always the best when it comes to honoring copyrights.
I personally have absolutely no issues with a Taiwanese or Chinese made ball. My beloved Wilson Duos are made in China and Callaway Chrome Softs are made in Taiwan and both are wonderful balls. I'd love for them to be made in the US but there's no longer such a thing as a US made ball from an American golf company.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Um, you may want to re-check your geography. Callaway Chrome Soft balls are designed in Carlsbad, CA and manufactured in Chicopee, MA. That's pretty far from Taiwan...