Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

[Duffer Waldorf]

Time will tell.
This Kuchar story reminds me of when Stewart Cink cheated at Harbour Town, 2004. From that Cink "won the tournament" but in doing so his reputation was harmed and he still today has to answer questions about it. The $200,000 or so Cink gained (from taking 1st place versus 2nd place), was not worth the damage to his reputation and image.

Stewart Cink cheated in 2004? This is the first I've heard of it.

 

[campilobaxter]

Per what I read, the payment with bonus was meant to be 5k (3k +2k bonus for the win). That’s why Kuchar gave him the envelope with 5k in it and said bye. If that is the case, I agree with fflmaster that the caddie was being lowballed. I think some are fine with that payment because the person lives in Mexico and isn’t well off, but I don’t think a 2k bonus for helping you win a pga tournament is ok. I guess we’ll all agree to disagree on that.

Now I don’t agree with the caddie for turning down the additional 15k and coming out publicly. And I don’t think this will damage Kuchar in any perceivable way.


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This is exactly how I feel. A $2k bonus is kind of a cheapskate move; the caddy should have taken the $15k; and people will have moved onto something else (again) in a day or two.

That's like a 40% bonus. In what world are people complaining about 40%?

 

[obedt]

That's like a 40% bonus. In what world are people complaining about 40%?

Aren’t caddies on tours paid differently than most other jobs in THIS world though?


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[campilobaxter]

Aren’t caddies on tours paid differently than most other jobs in THIS world though?


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Tour caddies probably are. El Tucan is not a tour caddie, so I'm wondering why he expects tour caddie money.

 

[MagicSpell]

I agree he isn’t and shouldn’t be expecting the same 10%. I don’t know the norm and only can go by the article saying club caddies or one week rentals usually get the stated pay and a bonus depending on money won. I think a 2,000 bonus for winning 1.3 million is a bit of a slap in the face and showing of the kind of person Kuchar really is.

It’s like in the restaurant business when a well known celebrity runs up a food bill of 1000, while you waited on them hand and foot. Then they tip you a 10. It just shows his true colors of the person he is and how he thinks of others.


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The amount Kuch won is irrelevant. You don't think a 67% tip on a $3000 wage is sufficient? I think you should reevaluate your own tipping in that case. Have you ever tipped that much?

 

[mikeg_74]

Per what I read, the payment with bonus was meant to be 5k (3k +2k bonus for the win). That’s why Kuchar gave him the envelope with 5k in it and said bye. If that is the case, I agree with fflmaster that the caddie was being lowballed. I think some are fine with that payment because the person lives in Mexico and isn’t well off, but I don’t think a 2k bonus for helping you win a pga tournament is ok. I guess we’ll all agree to disagree on that.

Now I don’t agree with the caddie for turning down the additional 15k and coming out publicly. And I don’t think this will damage Kuchar in any perceivable way.


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My point was that he lives in Mexico and is a caddie for a living (or so it seems). Given that his initial comments were to "provide" for his family, a total of $20k could have been his and helped his family a lot.

Now in terms of what he should have gotten, i am going back to we'll never know because that is between player and caddie, but I still stand by my comment of there is no way I give this guy or any other one week rental caddie the 10% many feel is customary after a win.

 

[bigskyirish]

That's like a 40% bonus. In what world are people complaining about 40%?

In a world where the bonus is typically calculated on the player's winnings for the week instead of the base weekly rate. I don't think the caddie should have gotten a full 10% like a regular Tour caddie would have for a win. As I said, he should have taken the $15k. But $5k amounts to 0.3% of the purse Kuchar won. To me, a $2k bonus that puts the caddie in a position of earning well less than 1% for a win is pretty cheap for a guy who just won $1.3 million.

 

[obedt]

My point was that he lives in Mexico and is a caddie for a living (or so it seems). Given that his initial comments were to "provide" for his family, a total of $20k could have been his and helped his family a lot.

Now in terms of what he should have gotten, i am going back to we'll never know because that is between player and caddie, but I still stand by my comment of there is no way I give this guy or any other one week rental caddie the 10% many feel is customary after a win.

Yeah I’m on record as saying the additional 15k was fine, but the 2k bonus after a win was not. That’s my point of view.


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[campilobaxter]

In a world where the bonus is typically calculated on the player's winnings for the week instead of the base weekly rate. I don't think the caddie should have gotten a full 10% like a regular Tour caddie would have for a win. As I said, he should have taken the $15k. But $5k amounts to 0.3% of the purse Kuchar won. To me, a $2k bonus that puts the caddie in a position of earning well less than 1% for a win is pretty cheap for a guy who just won $1.3 million.

I agree he should have taken the $15k. But my point is that I don't think its fair to equate El Tucan with tour caddies. He is not a tour caddie. And its clear he didn't have a tour caddie-style arrangement with Kuchar before the event. But now he's trying to take advantage of the situation after the fact, which isn't really fair to Kuchar. Kuch did a nice thing and offered him 3x (or more) what they initially agreed on, but this guy wants 10x. I don't have much sympathy for him.

I also have to wonder if this would have been a story if Kuch finished just in the top 10 instead of winning the whole event. He still would have come away with a huge paycheck. I don't think El Tucan would be talking about how Kuchar won $500k but only gave him $5k and I don't think anyone would be listening to him if he did.

 

[obedt]

I agree he should have taken the $15k. But my point is that I don't think its fair to equate El Tucan with tour caddies. He is not a tour caddie. And its clear he didn't have a tour caddie-style arrangement with Kuchar before the event. But now he's trying to take advantage of the situation after the fact, which isn't really fair to Kuchar. Kuch did a nice thing and offered him 3x (or more) what they initially agreed on, but this guy wants 10x. I don't have much sympathy for him.

I also have to wonder if this would have been a story if Kuch finished just in the top 10 instead of winning the whole event. He still would have come away with a huge paycheck. I don't think El Tucan would be talking about how Kuchar won $500k but only gave him $5k and I don't think anyone would be listening to him if he did.

Thankfully bigsky and I are not equating what he did to what a tour caddy does.


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[fuffle master]

The amount Kuch won is irrelevant. You don't think a 67% tip on a $3000 wage is sufficient? I think you should reevaluate your own tipping in that case. Have you ever tipped that much?

You really think the amount won doesn’t come into play? So, if your gambling at a casino craps table and win 100 do you tip the table guy the same as if you just won 1 million? Yea, I would give a different amount too.


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[DG_1234]

The amount Kuch won is irrelevant. You don't think a 67% tip on a $3000 wage is sufficient? I think you should reevaluate your own tipping in that case. Have you ever tipped that much?

The $1.3 million Kuchar won may be irrelevant to you, but other people may believe paying the caddie 10% for a win is the right thing to do.
Hopefully everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[bigskyirish]

I agree he should have taken the $15k. But my point is that I don't think its fair to equate El Tucan with tour caddies. He is not a tour caddie. And its clear he didn't have a tour caddie-style arrangement with Kuchar before the event. But now he's trying to take advantage of the situation after the fact, which isn't really fair to Kuchar. Kuch did a nice thing and offered him 3x (or more) what they initially agreed on, but this guy wants 10x. I don't have much sympathy for him.

I also have to wonder if this would have been a story if Kuch finished just in the top 10 instead of winning the whole event. He still would have come away with a huge paycheck. I don't think El Tucan would be talking about how Kuchar won $500k but only gave him $5k and I don't think anyone would be listening to him if he did.

I'm definitely with you on most of this. I agree it would never have been an issue if Kuchar hadn't won because the win is the fact that brings the 10% bonus into the conversation -- even Tour caddies aren't getting 10% absent a win. And I absolutely agree that El Tucan is trying to take advantage and there's no way he should expect to get the deal a Tour caddie would get. Not even close. But if Kuchar would have offered a total of $20k right away, that would have been around 1.5%, giving El Toucan about 15% of what a Tour caddie would have expected. So still a great payday for him, but also valuing his services at a fraction of what a Tour caddie's would have been valued at. The fact that El Tucan turned down the $15k makes me lose all sympathy for him at this point, even if I still think Kuchar was cheap.

 

[obedt]

I'm definitely with you on most of this. I agree it would never have been an issue if Kuchar hadn't won because the win is the fact that brings the 10% bonus into the conversation -- even Tour caddies aren't getting 10% absent a win. And I absolutely agree that El Tucan is trying to take advantage and there's no way he should expect to get the deal a Tour caddie would get. Not even close. But if Kuchar would have offered a total of $20k right away, that would have been around 1.5%, giving El Toucan about 15% of what a Tour caddie would have expected. So still a great payday for him, but also valuing his services at a fraction of what a Tour caddie's would have been valued at. The fact that El Tucan turned down the $15k makes me lose all sympathy for him at this point, even if I still think Kuchar was cheap.

Well said dude


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[ArmyGolf]

Does 10% for a win also mean the caddy gets jack sh*t for a missed cut?
Probably not.

 

[MagicSpell]

The $1.3 million Kuchar won may be irrelevant to you, but other people may believe paying the caddie 10% for a win is the right thing to do.
Hopefully everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Never said nor implied that others can't have their own opinion. By your logic in this post, however, Kuchar should have tipped the hotel staff MORE because he won than if he didn't win. Are we hearing about that too? Did he tip the greens keeper? The fans? Where does it stop? Kuchar won the money because of his talent and the golf HE played. Not because of everyone else that witnessed it. He had an agreement with his fill-in caddy and he fulfilled that agreement. Why should we expect Kuchar to tip more just because Kuchar earned more that week? It's his money he can choose to spend it how HE see's fit.

 

[fuffle master]

I think this is one of those topics that has people on both sides. Good discussion.

To me, I have a much lower opinion of Kuchar, as I believe he was in the wrong and very cheap. To others, the caddie is in the wrong for wanting more and Kuchar is in the right.

Both sides have good points and beliefs.


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[moosejaa]

Was this caddie not a "pro" caddie and might have done nothing more than carry the bag and tend to the clubs? Maybe the $5K (or $20K) was fair based on what he offered/contributed?

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[Faiz]

Kuchar should have paid more than the 5k.
Caddy should have definitely accepted the 20k and been grateful.

What disappoints me most is that people are suggesting he's eligible to accept less because he's Mexican. Racism is alive and well

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[mikeg_74]

Kuchar should have paid more than the 5k.
Caddy should have definitely accepted the 20k and been grateful.

What disappoints me most is that people are suggesting he's eligible to accept less because he's Mexican. Racism is alive and well

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No one said he should accept less because he is Mexican. People said that amount of money was worth months of regular salary and that’s why many feel he looked the gift horse in the mouth bc of greed.

You can read whatever you want, but racism is far from what has been posted.

 

[tequila4kapp]

Does 10% for a win also mean the caddy gets jack sh*t for a missed cut?
Probably not.

Actually, I think it does mean that. It’s part of the reason for the 10% number - it makes up for the lean weeks


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[McLovin]

Was this caddie not a "pro" caddie and might have done nothing more than carry the bag and tend to the clubs? Maybe the $5K (or $20K) was fair based on what he offered/contributed?

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i agree. el tucan had to use google translate just to write his response. how much help was he really to kuch, if they could barely communicate?

 

[DG_1234]

Was this caddie not a "pro" caddie and might have done nothing more than carry the bag and tend to the clubs? Maybe the $5K (or $20K) was fair based on what he offered/contributed?

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Some of history's most effective caddies say very little.
These days , as Tour caddie pay has increased, including caddies signing their own endorsement contracts, some of the caddies have become emboldened and crossed the line to where their behavior may be detrimental to the player. That is either from too much talking, or maybe violating the new alignment Rule by positioning themselves where the player may incur a penalty.
Show up, keep up, and shut up is the old traditional rule of thumb for caddies, and it can work as well today as it did yesteryear.

 

[mancest]

Kuchar should have paid more than the 5k.
Caddy should have definitely accepted the 20k and been grateful.

What disappoints me most is that people are suggesting he's eligible to accept less because he's Mexican. Racism is alive and well

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I have not seen that mentioned personally, but as a man of Mexican descent I would find that offensive. I also can't say what El Tucan should accept or what Kuchar should have been offered because I was not a part of the negotiations.... But that is just my take on it.

 

[DG_1234]

Does 10% for a win also mean the caddy gets jack sh*t for a missed cut?
Probably not.

I believe the standard pay these days is a minimum of $2,500 per tournament . Should the player miss the cut this helps the caddie pay expenses. Also, companies have started paying caddies to wear their product, so that guaranteed income is a help as well.