Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

[fupresti]

Kuchar should have paid more than the 5k.
Caddy should have definitely accepted the 20k and been grateful.

What disappoints me most is that people are suggesting he's eligible to accept less because he's Mexican. Racism is alive and well

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No one suggested he's eligible to accept less because he is Mexican. Stop trying to find oppression where there is none.

 

[mikeg_74]

I have not seen that mentioned personally, but as a man of Mexican descent I would find that offensive. I also can't say what El Tucan should accept or what Kuchar should have been offered because I was not a part of the negotiations.... But that is just my take on it.

Same here. I would have called it out if I felt any kind of racism towards his ethnicity.

 

[Faiz]

When there is a standard practice, to suggest that he should be happy to accept significantly less than the standard practice because he is Mexican and the gdp is less and average wage is less etc is wrong.
I'm not saying he deserves 10% or even 5% but to use the earnings in his country as a guage is wrong, this is a global event with World class earnings.
I would say that $20K is a fair figure globally but everyone has their own idea of what is fair.
In fact Fupresti has worded it significantly better than I have, he is right, it is not racism it is oppression; you are from third work backgrounds where you are expected to expect less by first World people and get called greedy for expecting what they consider fair.
Having said that I must stress that I think 20k is more than fair and he should have been grateful for that being offered.

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[Faiz]

No one suggested he's eligible to accept less because he is Mexican. Stop trying to find oppression where there is none.

Lol I think you should watch the video. I think you misunderstood what he is saying.

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[mancest]

When there is a standard practice, to suggest that he should be happy to accept significantly less than the standard practice because he is Mexican and the gdp is less and average wage is less etc is wrong.
I'm not saying he deserves 10% or even 5% but to use the earnings in his country as a guage is wrong, this is a global event with World class earnings.
I would say that $20K is a fair figure globally but everyone has their own idea of what is fair.
In fact Fupresti has worded it significantly better than I have, he is right, it is not racism it is oppression; you are from third work backgrounds where you are expected to expect less by first World people and get called greedy for expecting what they consider fair.
Having said that I must stress that I think 20k is more than fair and he should have been grateful for that being offered.

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standard practice: you reference this as 10%, but that standard practice is not a set amount and all "TOURING CADDIES" have a different set up with their individual pro... so a) how is that a standard? and b) El Tucan is not a "TOURING CADDIE", he is a local looper who was hired for the week and therefore did not have the same costs (travel, lodgings, meals) that a tour caddie has. He was also set to get paid $3000 whether Kuchar made the cut or not, the "standard practice" you mention a tour caddie gets paid about $1000 as a salary, most likely to cover travel costs.

https://golftips.golfweek.com/percentage-winnings-caddies-20625.html

You can feel however you want about this, I really dislike the trend of the only people that can be judged are those that have more money than those doing the judging.

 

[McLovin]

In fact Fupresti has worded it significantly better than I have, he is right, it is not racism it is oppression; you are from third work backgrounds where you are expected to expect less by first World people and get called greedy for expecting what they consider fair.

not everything has to be warfare. living wages are different in different areas of the world.

 

[Faiz]

standard practice: you reference this as 10%, but that standard practice is not a set amount and all "TOURING CADDIES" have a different set up with their individual pro... so a) how is that a standard? and b) El Tucan is not a "TOURING CADDIE", he is a local looper who was hired for the week and therefore did not have the same costs (travel, lodgings, meals) that a tour caddie has. He was also set to get paid $3000 whether Kuchar made the cut or not, the "standard practice" you mention a tour caddie gets paid about $1000 as a salary, most likely to cover travel costs.

https://golftips.golfweek.com/percentage-winnings-caddies-20625.html

You can feel however you want about this, I really dislike the trend of the only people that can be judged are those that have more money than those doing the judging.

I agree with you though, he asked for more and was offered 20k which I think is 100% fair

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[lanoxrehab]

Matt Kucher is no Phil Mickleson that is for sure.

 

[MWard]

Time will tell.
This Kuchar story reminds me of when Stewart Cink cheated at Harbour Town, 2004. From that Cink "won the tournament" but in doing so his reputation was harmed and he still today has to answer questions about it. The $200,000 or so Cink gained (from taking 1st place versus 2nd place), was not worth the damage to his reputation and image.

To prove a point, no one talks about Cink at harbour town.

 

[DG_1234]

To prove a point, no one talks about Cink at harbour town.

What's to say ? It happened and nothing can be done about it now. The worst part is that Cink has to live with it.

 

[MWard]

What's to say ? It happened and nothing can be done about it now. The worst part is that Cink has to live with it.

Literally nothing. The point is, no one ever remembers it. This won’t haunt Kuchar in the least bit.

Also... I don’t think Cink has lost sleep over it either.

 

[Jeff Spicoli]

If Kuchar had just given him $1,000,000 all of this could have been avoided.

 

[lanoxrehab]

If it weren't for my fat feet....I would never buy Sketchers again because of this.

 

[Awstyn]

Expectation and belief is different for everyone. That's what makes this discussion interesting.

We all have opinions but I know mine are at least skewed and uninformed. What's fair?
? Did this guy caddie or carry a bag? Local Caddie so you know he knew something about the course, but did he know Kucher? Could he communicate with Kucher?
? He got more than the 3K agreed upon. Good, bad, or ugly that satisfies obligations.


These events have a lot of volunteers that make them happen. When Web.com comes around my area I know several people carry bags around for the players. I know I would for the experience, and many do so at their own expense.

I have never like gratuity fees. Don't play on my ego or social morality. I tip my barber, waiters, and when I feel it is appropriate. If I am ignorant of what/when is appropriate, I'm sorry. Service isn't what used to be, any one that has pulled into a gas station should understand that. 15% is my base, and service (like where they may have to put up with me @ the bar) and convenience alter that. If more is required, I don't feel it is my obligation to say so. I might be a jerk, but I'm not trying to be.


Having a third party intervine upsets me more than a caddies expectations not being met. If El Tucan felt he was slighted, that is where it should have began. Turning down 15k after the fact is just more water under the bridge.

 

[MagicSpell]

What's to say ? It happened and nothing can be done about it now. The worst part is that Cink has to live with it.

What has to be done about it? You sound like Cink personally harmed you in some way. The situation was reviewed and decided at the time. Just because you don't agree with the decision does not make it less valid. Calling Cink a cheater over that decision is like treating someone unfavorably because they were charged with a crime even after the trial result is not guilty. Maybe he "got away" with something you wouldn't do but he did not cheat according to the rules officials.

 

[fupresti]

If Kuchar had just given him $1,000,000 all of this could have been avoided.

 

[obedt]

I will say the one good thing that came out of the caddie speaking out is that the theory of him not wanting the true amount coming out because he lived in Mexico was debunked.

People pivoted away from that defense of Kuchar onto something else. Not sure why I didn’t agree with it, but those statements kinda bothered me tbh. Maybe it’s because I work somewhere where we’re not compensated to the same degree as in the States for the same output, and a lot of us have to work pretty darned hard to provide well.


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[DG_1234]

What has to be done about it? You sound like Cink personally harmed you in some way. The situation was reviewed and decided at the time. Just because you don't agree with the decision does not make it less valid. Calling Cink a cheater over that decision is like treating someone unfavorably because they were charged with a crime even after the trial result is not guilty. Maybe he "got away" with something you wouldn't do but he did not cheat according to the rules officials.

Cink definitely cheated at Harbour Town, 2004. Lots of Tour players have cheated and gotten away with it, including Tiger.
Just like at any local golf country club or municipal, where some players cheat, the same is true for Tour events.
If you believe getting caught and, or, penalized for cheating is the definition of cheating, that's your business. My perspective is that cheating is cheating, regardless of whether the player is caught or penalized.
For the 2004 Cink incident Tour Official White covered up his own mistake, which I believe was just cause for him to be fired from his job.

 

[rallo]

Time will tell.
This Kuchar story reminds me of when Stewart Cink cheated at Harbour Town, 2004. From that Cink "won the tournament" but in doing so his reputation was harmed and he still today has to answer questions about it. The $200,000 or so Cink gained (from taking 1st place versus 2nd place), was not worth the damage to his reputation and image.

What?

and yet what is funny, I bet there are 10 people on the site who even know what we are talking about, and that number might be high. So just like that case, the Kuchar thing will be a non-story down the road.

^truth

 

[MWard]

Cink definitely cheated at Harbour Town, 2004. Lots of Tour players have cheated and gotten away with it, including Tiger.
Just like at any local golf country club or municipal, where some players cheat, the same is true for Tour events.
If you believe getting caught and, or, penalized for cheating is the definition of cheating, that's your business. My perspective is that cheating is cheating, regardless of whether the player is caught or penalized.
For the 2004 Cink incident Tour Official White covered up his own mistake, which I believe was just cause for him to be fired from his job.

Yeah, Slugger White is still employed by the PGA Tour.

Ted Purdy didn’t like the ruling, but didn’t have sour grapes towards Cink about it. “Purdy criticized the decision in the following weeks, without being critical of Cink, who Purdy said [Cink]was just doing what he was told he was allowed.”

 

[MagicSpell]

Cink definitely cheated at Harbour Town, 2004. Lots of Tour players have cheated and gotten away with it, including Tiger.
Just like at any local golf country club or municipal, where some players cheat, the same is true for Tour events.
If you believe getting caught and, or, penalized for cheating is the definition of cheating, that's your business. My perspective is that cheating is cheating, regardless of whether the player is caught or penalized.
For the 2004 Cink incident Tour Official White covered up his own mistake, which I believe was just cause for him to be fired from his job.

I made no such claim. I simply stated what is a fact in this case (opposed to your opinion in the matter). The fact is that Cink's actions were reviewed by the PGA rules governing body and determined to be within the rules. Whether you (or I) agree with that decision or not is not the point. Saying that Cink cheated is not based on facts in evidence.
I have not said I agreed nor disagreed with the decision. I am merely stating that the case was decided and Cink was deemed to have not breached the rules.

 

[DG_1234]

Yeah, Slugger White is still employed by the PGA Tour.

Ted Purdy didn’t like the ruling, but didn’t have sour grapes towards Cink about it. “Purdy criticized the decision in the following weeks, without being critical of Cink, who Purdy said [Cink]was just doing what he was told he was allowed.”

On the tee box White told Cink "in the waste bunker you are permitted to remove loose impediments".
However once in the waste bunker Cink chose to use his finger to dig a trench behind the ball, effectively building a lie for himself, which is a violation of the Rules, cheating.
Remember there is a significant difference between removing loose impediments and building a lie.
Should Slugger White been fired following that tournament ? I think so, yes. First White neglected to do his job and accompany Cink to the waste bunker. Later, after reviewing Cink's actions on video , White chose to cover up his own neglect and, or, ineptitude. Considering that White's job title is VP of PGA Tour Rules, I believe he definitely should have been fired.

 

[jhstew1]

he was given 5k, offered another 15k but turned it down & some how Kuch is the bad guy.

 

[Tadashi70]

I'd love to debate this but I have no idea if it true. There could have been a predetermined already agreed upon amount. There are so many different scenarios to this. Until I hear Kuch apologize and admit to it, it's just a rumor.

 

[PKorf]

This thread is still going? Thought this was settled lol


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