Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

[Canadan]

I'm not sure how you could possibly know this.

I'll happily wait for the information to be compiled, but I think you're right.

And considering the fact that gillis is making a pretty bad reputation for himself, I'd say he's not in any hurry to chase real facts either.

 

[mikeg_74]

So, not unlike this story with Kuchar (where barely any of the real facts are probably present), your assumptions of me are almost all entirely wrong. But it does paint a nice picture on the anger of the confused being projected incorrectly to others and I'm a big enough boy to take on the brunt of that without throwing a fit. I don't own a 50k car. I carry my own clubs and dislike bag boys and club washers (as I am perfectly capable of doing those things myself). I do belong to a private golf course and it is far and away the biggest expense I have because of my passion and love for the game of golf. I'm also not a big dog around here. I've been around for a while and post a lot, sure, but I'm just like everyone else. How i'm perceived I suppose is entirely up to you.

And to the comments on tipping, it kind of fits some of my political beliefs. I feel strongly in what I would do in each situation, but overall, I'm pro "None of my damn business" how they spend their money. When I go out to eat with friends I don't open their checks after they've written down their tip and judge them. It's just none of my damn business. A tip is a tip, and it's not guaranteed. The man got more than he was owed (and offered quadruple that amount after the fact). And it's still none of my business.

The bigger issue here is that this guy doesn't fall into the category of "normal tour caddie"...that 10% that is getting thrown around is usually for a long time caddie who has been on his guys bag for a while and is as much a "thank you for sticking with me" as it is a reward for helping his player win that week. This situation could not be any more different in that he is a resort caddie who got lucky one week.

Like you I agree it's none of my business and I laugh at the "he deserves" comments. He doesn't deserve anything other than what was agreed on, and that we will never know because this is one big **** storm that has clouded whatever minuscule facts have been released. Just because Kuchar is successful at his job doesn't mean he "owes" anyone a share of it.

 

[jdtox]

I have no opinion on the subject, but let me ask a generic question since some are running pretty hot on the subject.

Let's say a player hires a local caddie because his/hers falls ill. He/she knows the course pretty well and they agree to an amount to carry the bag. After about a day, he realizes he is playing really well, has a shot, but the caddie has not helped a single bit. In fact they don't communicate at all. Literally nothing, other than player telling caddie what club and caddie carrying clubs from hole to hole.

Player wins "in spite" of not having any assistance, does he owe the caddie a bonus for the work?

I say no, especially if there was an agreement in place. The finishing position should have no bearing on payment, especially if caddie was essentially doing nothing.

 

[Canadan]

I have no opinion on the subject, but let me ask a generic question since some are running pretty hot on the subject.

Let's say a player hires a local caddie because his/hers falls ill. He/she knows the course pretty well and they agree to an amount to carry the bag. After about a day, he realizes he is playing really well, has a shot, but the caddie has not helped a single bit. In fact they don't communicate at all. Literally nothing, other than player telling caddie what club and caddie carrying clubs from hole to hole.

Player wins "in spite" of not having any assistance, does he owe the caddie a bonus for the work?

This question sets the stage for whether I continue to participate in this thread (which I've enjoyed immensely).

If people think 10% tip with a 95% language barrier is 'owed' I'm awfully far away.

 

[CobraX51]

your assumptions of me are almost all entirely wrong. But it does paint a nice picture on the anger of the confused being projected incorrectly to others and I'm a big enough boy to take on the brunt of that without throwing a fit. I don't own a 50k car. I carry my own clubs and dislike bag boys and club washers (as I am perfectly capable of doing those things myself). I do belong to a private golf course and it is far and away the biggest expense I have because of my passion and love for the game of golf. I'm also not a big dog around here. I've been around for a while and post a lot, sure, but I'm just like everyone else. How i'm perceived I suppose is entirely up to you.

I read this reply in the tone that B Rabbit fired back at Poppa Doc in 8 Mile which led to Poppa Doc just giving the mic back to Future! 3-1-3 FREE WORLD!!!

What in the hell happened in this thread? Lmao!

 

[Golf Ghost]

Also if the 10% rule is such a hard rule, why is he now only asking for $50,000. Seems like a very random number.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[mikeg_74]

I have no opinion on the subject, but let me ask a generic question since some are running pretty hot on the subject.

Let's say a player hires a local caddie because his/hers falls ill. He/she knows the course pretty well and they agree to an amount to carry the bag. After about a day, he realizes he is playing really well, has a shot, but the caddie has not helped a single bit. In fact they don't communicate at all. Literally nothing, other than player telling caddie what club and caddie carrying clubs from hole to hole.

Player wins "in spite" of not having any assistance, does he owe the caddie a bonus for the work?

No, he owes what was agreed on prior to the first tee on Thursday. Now after if he wants to throw something extra in, that's up to him, but as a the caddie, I'm in no way expecting anywhere close to 10% for simply carrying a bag, wiping clubs, raking bunkers, pulling flag sticks, etc..

 

[Awstyn]

I have no opinion on the subject, but let me ask a generic question since some are running pretty hot on the subject.

Let's say a player hires a local caddie because his/hers falls ill. He/she knows the course pretty well and they agree to an amount to carry the bag. After about a day, he realizes he is playing really well, has a shot, but the caddie has not helped a single bit. In fact they don't communicate at all. Literally nothing, other than player telling caddie what club and caddie carrying clubs from hole to hole.

Player wins "in spite" of not having any assistance, does he owe the caddie a bonus for the work?

My opinion is that a local or fill in caddie is not owed a bonus for carrying the bag, unless firmly agreed upon beforehand.

I wrongfully tried to throw in a "winning lotto" ticket into the discussion. Winning on tour is not like that. It might require some luck but the body of work required extends beyond the profession. To get a share of the profits, I feel like you have to have played a bigger role.

 

[Paladin]

I say no, especially if there was an agreement in place. The finishing position should have no bearing on payment, especially if caddie was essentially doing nothing.

This is just my take, but I can't wrap my head around the idea that $3K was acceptable on Wednesday but $5K was insulting on Sunday. The only way it matters is relative to how much Kuchar made. Maybe it's because how much I make is a matter of public record and not series of handshake deals, but I can't bring myself to sweat how much money other people make and try to run it thru some algorithm of how much people are then "owed" as a percentage of someone's paycheck.

 

[mikeg_74]

My opinion is that a local or fill in caddie is not owed a bonus for carrying the bag, unless firmly agreed upon beforehand.

I wrongfully tried to throw in a "winning lotto" ticket into the discussion. Winning on tour is not like that. It might require some luck but the body of work required extends beyond the profession. To get a share of the profits, I feel like you have to have played a bigger role.

I have a bigger issue with the winning lottery ticket because the store who sold you the ticket gets a percentage (at least here in Texas they do)....that is a hard pill to swallow for me because i am the one risking my money and all they are doing is punching in the sale and handing me a ticket. that guy behind the counter is the resort caddie who got lucky.

 

[DG_1234]

I have no opinion on the subject, but let me ask a generic question since some are running pretty hot on the subject.

Let's say a player hires a local caddie because his/hers falls ill. He/she knows the course pretty well and they agree to an amount to carry the bag. After about a day, he realizes he is playing really well, has a shot, but the caddie has not helped a single bit. In fact they don't communicate at all. Literally nothing, other than player telling caddie what club and caddie carrying clubs from hole to hole.

Player wins "in spite" of not having any assistance, does he owe the caddie a bonus for the work?

If the player is shooting a low score, the caddie is performing well.
I'm not sure where player-caddie-communication-talking came to be thought of as a benefit to the player. For example Angelo Argea worked for Nicklaus for 20 years , including 17 Major victories, and the two rarely spoke.

 

[JB]

If the player is shooting a low score, the caddie is performing well.
I'm not sure where player-caddie-communication-talking came to be thought of as a benefit to the player. For example Angelo Argea worked for Nicklaus for 20 years , including 17 Major victories, and the two rarely spoke.

Right, they worked together for 20 years. This person worked with the player for 4 days.
Yet this was a generic question, so I guess in this instance, you would give the large bonus even if you didn't care for the person carrying the bag.

 

[millsan1]

My take:

When I see a pro win a million $, I will tell people that the caddie is probably getting 10% of that.

Invariably, the response is one of "Man, I'll carry the bag around for that kind of $"

To which I reply, the pro is not paying the caddie to carry the bag. The caddie is a coach, motivator, technician, green reader, yard finder, and advice giver, who happens to carry the bag. A full time caddie helps thier pro win, they contribute to the win.

From what I have heard/read, the caddie in question does not speak English. I am going to assume Kuchar does not speak Spanish. Given that, one can only assume this caddie probably just toted the bag for him.

$5K for toting a bag is fair and reasonable. One can only assume if the caddie had helped Kuchar get the win, he probably would have been paid something commensurate to that effort. Given that Kuchar has a solid reputation and seems to be a "good guy", I can only assume this was a bag toting fee.

 

[millsan1]

I have no opinion on the subject, but let me ask a generic question since some are running pretty hot on the subject.

Let's say a player hires a local caddie because his/hers falls ill. He/she knows the course pretty well and they agree to an amount to carry the bag. After about a day, he realizes he is playing really well, has a shot, but the caddie has not helped a single bit. In fact they don't communicate at all. Literally nothing, other than player telling caddie what club and caddie carrying clubs from hole to hole.

Player wins "in spite" of not having any assistance, does he owe the caddie a bonus for the work?

Nope. Toting the bag is worth X dollars. Contribute to the victory, then yes a bonus is appropriate. Happening to be there when a player shoots a great round does not warrant anything.

 

[fuffle master]

1: the caddie didn’t get what he deserved. The caddie didn’t get what a white American born caddie would’ve gotten and that disparity is what has everyone up in arms especially since the offender has 45 million more than a regular person. It’s like a billionaire tipping a 1 dollar for a person parking their Bentley. Cheap.
2: 15k was ‘shut the f up money’ and not appropriate for a win worth 1.3 million.
3: I doubt any pro has ear marked a certain amount towards charity the week they win. It’s probably more in mine with other ultra high net worth individuals. During tax time or throughout the year they periodically make donations to charities or their own charity organizations. I don’t hear about other stand ins getting stiffed due to ‘sorry man o was gonna donate my winnings to charity so there’s none left over for you.’
4: I want to believe Kuchar is a great guy with a solid down to earth head on his shoulders. I believe the greedy ass agent is completely to blame on this some way shape or form. I just can’t believe Kuchar shook hands on 3k. Then wins 1.3 million (his normal caddie would get 130k and he decides completely on his own a 2k bonus is appropriate. I’d guess someone told him to do all that but if not then he’s a complete piece of crap, fake as F garbage person.

If I acted this way my entire family (parents, wife, kids, friends) would all be asking me to make it right. Not double down and say ‘okay I f’d up, how’s 15k more?’ LOL. How’s that different from a guy whose sued for harassment and settles out of court for 20 million and then says ‘I didn’t do anything wrong, I’m completely innocent’. Yea right. The offer basically admits guilt and he feels guilty for all this or he’s a piece of crap and wants to save public image.

I’m a hot head and I’ve said and done many piece of crap things. I should probably burn in hell for things I’ve done, said or acts I’ve committed but I can clearly see this wasn’t right by our western moral norms. Back in golfs hay day - guys would use local caddies ALL THE TIME. Most caddies didn’t travel at all and the 5,7,10 rule has been around for like 70 years. I wish the big guns would weigh in but they’re too classy. I’d bet Jack, Arnie, Player, Trevino, etc all paid on the 5/7/10 rule and they would stand on the caddies side.

I realize you’re a big dog around here and seem to be some type of industry insider who gets stuff for free. If you love this game and believe we as golfers adhere to a higher standard than other sports figures then you should agree that winning 1.3 million and then giving a 0.1538% tip is reasonable well then my friend you shouldn’t be in the game of golf. Next time you visit a private club and the kid takes your clubs from the trunk of your 50k plus car try giving him 1 penny cut in half. See how the club likes that. Or at the turn when tipping isn’t allowed and you toss a half penny into the jar - see how that goes over. I’m not a huge tipper because I can barely afford my house so as much as possible I avoid all situations where tipping is involved. I park my own car. I don’t go to fancy restaurants. I’m not a member of a private club but I grew up at country clubs. I saw almost everyone giving the bag boy a 20. I thought holly crap these guys are loaded. My dad was one who’d always take care of the bad boys, the locker room guys, everyone he encountered and I know how it’s done. Since I can’t then I don’t go to those places. Simple. If Kutcher can’t tip correctly then he should be removed from the tour. If this tournament was in he USA the tour would fine him in secret and force him to poney up the correct amount for the work done.

I know I’d love to make 2k or 3 or 5 for a weekends work but I don’t caddie for an actual living. We are all thinking like we have our real jobs and then suddenly a millionaire is paying us 5k for the week. That’s not how this is. The guy makes a living caddying at the course where the tourney was played. His local knowledge was probably invaluable and needed along the way to winning. Yes it’s the golfer but if history shows us how this should’ve been done then the only conclusion should’ve been a lot more money going to the caddie.

At this level, the amount of 2,3,5 or 15k is basically insulting the same way a penny cut in half would be insulting for parking a car.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

B,

If you read my posts on this topic you will see I am kinda on your side of Kuchar looks cheap and I have changed my opinion on him.

However, I have to post only on the fact that we should not belittle anyone’s opinions or degrade any person that has a different opinion.

I don’t know Canadan at all, so this is not some friend or fellow poster posting on anyone’s behalf. I really don’t think he or any person on the board should be blasted as you did in this post. These are the types of discussions that do cause a divide amongst people and a nice debate to turn in the wrong direction.

I am no person to tell anyone what to say or do, but I just was hoping you would reread your post from a different perspective and think if you really feel like that section is helpful for the debate here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DG_1234]

Right, they worked together for 20 years. This person worked with the player for 4 days.
Yet this was a generic question, so I guess in this instance, you would give the large bonus even if you didn't care for the person carrying the bag.

Some players insist their caddie does not talk much and, or, talk only when asked a question. Other players like a chatty caddie. It's personal preference and about what style of caddie helps the player shoot his lowest scores.
To answer your question, I would be thrilled to pay the caddie 10% because that meant I won the tournament. This means the 1st prize money, the 2 year exemption, the Masters invite, larger future endorsement dollars etc... With all that positive happening for me why wouldn't I honor the tradition of paying the caddie 10% for carrying my winning bag ?
Before this Kuchar situation I doubt any Tour pro had ever heard of a winning bag caddie not receiving 10%. Kuchar deciding to pay less than 10% is such a questionable thing , and I believe that is why Tweeter pro Gillis felt compelled to write about it.
To me it is irrelevant whether the caddie of a winning bag was my long time Tour caddie, a kid I met on the range Monday morning, a local caddie , or my sister-in-law. A winning bag is a winning bag.

 

[fuffle master]

I have no opinion on the subject, but let me ask a generic question since some are running pretty hot on the subject.

Let's say a player hires a local caddie because his/hers falls ill. He/she knows the course pretty well and they agree to an amount to carry the bag. After about a day, he realizes he is playing really well, has a shot, but the caddie has not helped a single bit. In fact they don't communicate at all. Literally nothing, other than player telling caddie what club and caddie carrying clubs from hole to hole.

Player wins "in spite" of not having any assistance, does he owe the caddie a bonus for the work?

I have always worked in customer service in one way or another. So, I tend to be a person that is more generous then I should be.

I would have tip the caddie more than the 2k that seems to have happened.

To answer your question directly, yes I tip based on how well I do “in spite” of the service. In gambling, the dealer gives me no assistance at all. Yet, if I win a large hand in poker or end on a winning night, I tip the dealer appropriately as I think. Yes, they get more depending on how much I won.

At a dinner, I will tip virtually the same percentage of bill no matter what type of service I get. I mean the server has to be really really bad for a lower tip.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JB]

Some players insist their caddie does not talk much and, or, talk only when asked a question. Other players like a chatty caddie. It's personal preference and about what style of caddie helps the player shoot his lowest scores.
To answer your question, I would be thrilled to pay the caddie 10% because that meant I won the tournament. This means the 1st prize money, the 2 year exemption, the Masters invite, larger future endorsement dollars etc... With all that positive happening for me why wouldn't I honor the tradition of paying the caddie 10% for carrying my winning bag ?
Before this Kuchar situation I doubt any Tour pro had ever heard of a winning bag caddie not receiving 10%. Kuchar deciding to pay less than 10% is such a questionable thing , and I believe that is why Tweeter pro Gillis felt compelled to write about it.
To me it is irrelevant whether the caddie of a winning bag was my long time Tour caddie, a kid I met on the range Monday morning, a local caddie , or my sister-in-law. A winning bag is a winning bag.

Can you offer some current examples of players insisting their caddies only talk when asked a question?
And there are some serious things incorrect here. 10% for the win is not the ONLY way its done. In fact currently, 8% across the board is becoming a thing. Some of these items WERE the way it was done a couple of decades ago, but some things have changed. Hell, Digest has done multiple stories on it over the last few years and even talked back in 2015 about how 8% across the board was being done.

Then add in the fact that the pay up front for the week is higher than a number of caddies make, which have a range that start at $1500 and go up from there.

And one more note. There are players on the PGA Tour that don't bonus the same way based on finish. Instead they offer large base salaries and bonuses sprinkled in.

 

[JDax]

Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

1: the caddie didn’t get what he deserved. The caddie didn’t get what a white American born caddie would’ve gotten and that disparity is what has everyone up in arms especially since the offender has 45 million more than a regular person. It’s like a billionaire tipping a 1 dollar for a person parking their Bentley. Cheap.

I didn’t read your diatribe past this, because you led with an attempt to play identity politics on a non-political issue. And the attempt to race bait in this type of discussion is disingenuous on your part.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sposey013168]

Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

This thread is interesting.

In my eyes kuch has shown he is a cheapskate and how anyone can argue that baffles me.

Of course I remember the tipping thread that was on here a while ago, so some of the opinions here do not surprise me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JDax]

This thread is interesting.

In my eyes kuch has shown he is a cheapskate and how anyone can argue that baffles me.

Of course I remember the tipping thread that was on here a while ago, so some of the opinions here do not surprise me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is no doubt that Kuch is being cheap... Hell I’ve seen Craps dealers tipped more after a good shooter run...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sposey013168]

There is no doubt that Kuch is being cheap... Hell I’ve seen Craps dealers tipped more after a good shooter run...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Me too, I am just shocked how many people are defending kuch.

Yes the crap being thrown around is bad for all, but just do the right thing at the start and there is nothing to throw around


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[campilobaxter]

Me too, I am just shocked how many people are defending kuch.

Yes the crap being thrown around is bad for all, but just do the right thing at the start and there is nothing to throw around


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's the question, though. In this situation, what is the "right" thing? Everyone had their own opinion on what that means.

 

[JoeHatesSnow]

This thread is interesting.

In my eyes kuch has shown he is a cheapskate and how anyone can argue that baffles me.

Of course I remember the tipping thread that was on here a while ago, so some of the opinions here do not surprise me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is my take as well. I didn't see the tipping thread on here, but I've seen them on other forums. I can imagine how it went.

I will add that El Tucan should have taken the extra $15K if he was offered it. Not just for the good of his family, but because whenever a cheap skate offers to throw in more you take it. Hard to say when/if it will happen again.

 

[sposey013168]

That's the question, though. In this situation, what is the "right" thing? Everyone had their own opinion on what that means.

If anyone thinks a half of a percent is the right thing then I will just continue to shake my head


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk