Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

[DonJuan]

I have no opinion on the subject, but let me ask a generic question since some are running pretty hot on the subject.

Let's say a player hires a local caddie because his/hers falls ill. He/she knows the course pretty well and they agree to an amount to carry the bag. After about a day, he realizes he is playing really well, has a shot, but the caddie has not helped a single bit. In fact they don't communicate at all. Literally nothing, other than player telling caddie what club and caddie carrying clubs from hole to hole.

Player wins "in spite" of not having any assistance, does he owe the caddie a bonus for the work?

And herein lies the issue. Your question looks at this from a employer-employee standpoint, which is how I look it. What is "fair" compensation for services rendered? Did this guy help Kuch read all the putts? Did he pick angles off the tee? Or did he just carry the bag? I'm not paying anyone 50-100k to carry a bag, unless it's my regular caddie or they undeniably contributed to the win.

Others are looking at it from a Marxist perspective. Look at this bourgeoisie golfer taking advantage of this poor proletariat caddie. There's also a little social justice stuff mixed in here, too (The white guy with privelege taking advantage of the Mexican guy)

Then others are looking at this from a humanitarian aspect. Kuch could've changed this guy's life. The man wants to open a laundromat! (I'm not sure why it's Kuch's job to do that, but that's out there).

Then there's this weird American tipping culture thing where we expect rich people to tip more because they are rich. And if you don't we're going to shame you. I remember when Drew Brees was shamed for leaving a $3 for a takeout order.

In other words, there a lot of angles people are addressing this from.



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[DG_1234]

Here is a link to a Forbes Magazine year 2015 article profiling the player-caddie business relationship:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtba...st-paid-caddies-on-the-pga-tour/#31f2592a6097


From reading this I learned a few things I did not previously know, including Horschel and Stenson, when they won their respective $10 million FedEx Cup Championship bonus prize, decided to pay their caddies $1 million (10% of the $10 million Fed Ex prize)
Also, the endorsement dollars some caddies are being paid for wearing particular logo hats is up to $50,000 per year, which is more money than I would have guessed.

 

[JB]

Me too, I am just shocked how many people are defending kuch.

Yes the crap being thrown around is bad for all, but just do the right thing at the start and there is nothing to throw around


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I tend to lean towards the side that he is being a bit cheap, but its important to note (and what I have tried doing) that many of the "facts" being put out are just not accurate in the current climate on tour.
Im an overtipper by nature, but if I really couldn't stand the server, I don't think its right to be forced to. Yet, a person of influence could literally have a server take a giant **** on their plate, and then when they get stiffed on the tip run to social media and have that person of influence blasted over it.

 

[Nate]

First: Thank you Baby Jesus that this was not Spieth this happened too. That's all I'm saying.

Second: A deal is a deal

Third: I think Shintaro Ban who finished last, 28 strokes back from Kutch, should pay his caddie more than Kutch did for having to make him work 28 more shots than the winner did.

 

[sposey013168]

I tend to lean towards the side that he is being a bit cheap, but its important to note (and what I have tried doing) that many of the "facts" being put out are just not accurate in the current climate on tour.
Im an overtipper by nature, but if I really couldn't stand the server, I don't think its right to be forced to. Yet, a person of influence could literally have a server take a giant **** on their plate, and then when they get stiffed on the tip run to social media and have that person of influence blasted over it.

I know what you mean and have seen that happen on social media.

I guess all the web guys me and my buddies have caddied for are better guys than kuch. They all offer 10 percent of any winnings. Maybe we have just been lucky


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[JB]

Here is a link to a Forbes Magazine year 2015 article profiling the player-caddie business relationship:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtba...st-paid-caddies-on-the-pga-tour/#31f2592a6097


From reading this I learned a few things I did not previously know, including Horschel and Stenson, when they won their respective $10 million FedEx Cup Championship bonus prize, decided to pay their caddies
10% of same.
Also, the endorsement dollars some caddies are being paid for wearing particular logo hats is more than I would have expected.

Weird, that same article says caddies make beginning at $1500 a week to $2500 per, so this one got more : )

And here is a Digest article talking about top players NOT using the 10% schedule and that 8% across was becoming a thing all the way back in 2014.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/undercover-pro-fired-by-caddie

 

[mikeg_74]

Me too, I am just shocked how many people are defending kuch.

Yes the crap being thrown around is bad for all, but just do the right thing at the start and there is nothing to throw around


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I don’t feel like I’m defending Kuchar, but more defending his right to do what he wants with his money. I’m not too keen on telling others how to spend their money. You know me well and “cheap” doesn’t go hand in hand with me. I’m pretty generous where I think it’s earned.

I think the bigger issue is that we don’t know all the facts from what was agreed upon and relying on a jaded persons (Gillis) second and third hand accounts of letters and demands that smells like extortion.

Should have Kuchar paid more? Who knows. If you asked me to be Kuchar, go back in time and make a decision, I’d write a bigger check, but again that’s just me and how I choose to disperse my winnings.

 

[sposey013168]

Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

I don’t feel like I’m defending Kuchar, but more defending his right to do what he wants with his money. I’m not too keen on telling others how to spend their money. You know me well and “cheap” doesn’t go hand in hand with me. I’m pretty generous where I think it’s earned.

I think the bigger issue is that we don’t know all the facts from what was agreed upon and relying on a jaded persons (Gillis) second and third hand accounts of letters and demands that smells like extortion.

Should have Kuchar paid more? Who knows. If you asked me to be Kuchar, go back in time and make a decision, I’d write a bigger check, but again that’s just me and how I choose to disperse my winnings.

I would have giving him the 5k then wired him another 50k which is only 5 percent but fair and guess what we do not have a story period.

And I am not a fan of Gillis.


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[Awstyn]

I've enjoyed this thread, and it might already have been said but I feel the need to repeat it. "Gunga galunga…" Might lighten up the mood.

Carl Spackler: So I jump ship in Hong Kong and I make my way over to Tibet, and I get on as a looper at a course over in the Himalayas.

Angie D’Annunzio: A looper?

Carl Spackler: A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I’m a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald… striking. So, I’m on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one – big hitter, the Lama – long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga… gunga, gunga-lagunga. So we finish the eighteenth and he’s gonna stiff me. And I say, “Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know.” And he says, “Oh, uh, there won’t be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness.” So I got that goin’ for me, which is nice.

 

[Paladin]

This thread is interesting.

In my eyes kuch has shown he is a cheapskate and how anyone can argue that baffles me.

Of course I remember the tipping thread that was on here a while ago, so some of the opinions here do not surprise me


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Why is Kuch a cheapskate for paying 166% of the agreed upon amount? Please explain your opinion without referencing how much Kuchar grossed that weekend.

Also, what finishing position for Kuchar would have been suitable for the agreed upon amount? Would $3K been enough if he had finished top-5? Top 10? Made the cut? When did the agreed upon amount become insufficient?

My point is that we're only calling him cheap relative to how much he grossed that weekend. But when they agreed to the deal, Kuchar was even par and hadn't made the cut. In light of that, he agreed to pay El Toucan $3K out of his own pocket. I'd say that's very generous of Kuch!

 

[JB]

Some players insist their caddie does not talk much and, or, talk only when asked a question. Other players like a chatty caddie. It's personal preference and about what style of caddie helps the player shoot his lowest scores.
To answer your question, I would be thrilled to pay the caddie 10% because that meant I won the tournament. This means the 1st prize money, the 2 year exemption, the Masters invite, larger future endorsement dollars etc... With all that positive happening for me why wouldn't I honor the tradition of paying the caddie 10% for carrying my winning bag ?
Before this Kuchar situation I doubt any Tour pro had ever heard of a winning bag caddie not receiving 10%. Kuchar deciding to pay less than 10% is such a questionable thing , and I believe that is why Tweeter pro Gillis felt compelled to write about it.
To me it is irrelevant whether the caddie of a winning bag was my long time Tour caddie, a kid I met on the range Monday morning, a local caddie , or my sister-in-law. A winning bag is a winning bag.

Can you offer some current examples of players insisting their caddies only talk when asked a question?
And there are some serious things incorrect here. 10% for the win is not the ONLY way its done. In fact currently, 8% across the board is becoming a thing. Some of these items WERE the way it was done a couple of decades ago, but some things have changed. Hell, Digest has done multiple stories on it over the last few years and even talked back in 2015 about how 8% across the board was being done.

Then add in the fact that the pay up front for the week is higher than a number of caddies make, which have a range that start at $1500 and go up from there.

And one more note. There are players on the PGA Tour that don't bonus the same way based on finish. Instead they offer large base salaries and bonuses sprinkled in.

Im still really curious about the current players that do not allow their caddies to talk. I think that is pretty fascinating, so bumping this.

 

[Canadan]

Me too, I am just shocked how many people are defending kuch.

Yes the crap being thrown around is bad for all, but just do the right thing at the start and there is nothing to throw around

For what it's worth, I'm not defending Kuch, I'm defending the right to do whatever the hell he wants with his own money. Not my business.

AND, I refuse to accept the idea of tipping because tipping. We have no idea what was earned and it's once again not our business.

 

[mikeg_74]

I would have giving him the 5k then wired him another 50k which is only 5 percent but fair and guess what we do not have a story period.

And I am not a fan of Gillis.


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I think we are seeing it the same, just getting there differently.

 

[sposey013168]

Why is Kuch a cheapskate for paying 166% of the agreed upon amount? Please explain your opinion without referencing how much Kuchar grossed that weekend.

Also, what finishing position for Kuchar would have been suitable for the agreed upon amount? Would $3K been enough if he had finished top-5? Top 10? Made the cut? When did the agreed upon amount become insufficient?

My point is that we're only calling him cheap relative to how much he grossed that weekend. But when they agreed to the deal, Kuchar was even par and hadn't made the cut. In light of that, he agreed to pay El Toucan $3K out of his own pocket. I'd say that's very generous of Kuch!

Because every pro I have PERSONALLY met has always been willing to pay 10 percent of earnings. Like I said perhaps I have only met decent pros.

Also this in not a employer- employee situation. It’s a contractor situation, and if people don’t understand the difference in that then don’t understand business very well


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[sposey013168]

What’s real funny with this thread is a I am huge conservative in my thoughts, I am afraid I am going to labeled a liberal haha


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[sposey013168]

Also I am hosting a web tour player this year at my house (don’t know who it will be yet) I will take a video and ask him what he pays local caddies and will ask some other players as well


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[mikeg_74]

What’s real funny with this thread is a I am huge conservative in my thoughts, I am afraid I am going to labeled a liberal haha


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Tree hugging hippie!

 

[Canadan]

Also I am hosting a web tour player this year at my house (don’t know who it will be yet) I will take a video and ask him what he pays local caddies and will ask some other players as well

We have a web.com caddy (not sure on his regularity, just know that he's out there a fair bit) as a member at my course.

I'll try and get his thoughts as well.

 

[sposey013168]

Tree hugging hippie!

You got me brother, I have been a bleeding heart liberal in disguise all these years haha


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[Nate]

Also I am hosting a web tour player this year at my house (don’t know who it will be yet) I will take a video and ask him what he pays local caddies and will ask some other players as well

LOL, I think that conversation might end up taking place "off the record" if these pros have learned anything from this fiasco.

 

[DonJuan]

I would have giving him the 5k then wired him another 50k which is only 5 percent but fair and guess what we do not have a story period.

And I am not a fan of Gillis.


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I think it's a hefty assumption that this would not be an issue at 50k. It's 2019; everything is an issue. Someone posted an article on here where the caddie said he was expecting 100k to open up his laundromat.

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[JDax]

Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

And herein lies the issue. Your question looks at this from a employer-employee standpoint, which is how I look it. What is "fair" compensation for services rendered? Did this guy help Kuch read all the putts? Did he pick angles off the tee? Or did he just carry the bag? I'm not paying anyone 50-100k to carry a bag, unless it's my regular caddie or they undeniably contributed to the win.

Others are looking at it from a Marxist perspective. Look at this bourgeoisie golfer taking advantage of this poor proletariat caddie. There's also a little social justice stuff mixed in here, too (The white guy with privelege taking advantage of the Mexican guy)

Then others are looking at this from a humanitarian aspect. Kuch could've changed this guy's life. The man wants to open a laundromat! (I'm not sure why it's Kuch's job to do that, but that's out there).

Then there's this weird American tipping culture thing where we expect rich people to tip more because they are rich. And if you don't we're going to shame you. I remember when Drew Brees was shamed for leaving a $3 for a takeout order.

In other words, there a lot of angles people are addressing this from.



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Speaking of the American tipping culture, about 3 years ago my wife and I spent a week in Sydney, Australia and stayed at the Four Seasons near the Sydney Harbor Bridge & The Opera House. During the week we were repeat visitors to many of the restaurants and pubs in that area.

We noticed that when we went into a place a second time (and the servers remembered us), there was a battle on who would get our table. The reason was that we were tipping 20%, and didn’t know until the last day of the trip that tipping wasn’t a normal thing because their minimum wage is so high.

Also culture of the more you have, the more you should pay or tip, and if you don’t we are going to shame you, bit Drew Brees and others, like you have mentioned. And everyone from where I’m from loves Drew Brees, this means no one is immune to this type of shame pressure.

I’m a firm believer that there should be a set cost for goods and services, and a sliding cost scale based on what you make (therefore what the provider believes you can afford) is against my belief system. I have refused to use the YMCA as my gym of choice exactly for their use of an income based sliding scale to decide what they charge for their services.




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[Greg Kulbick]

Also I am hosting a web tour player this year at my house (don’t know who it will be yet) I will take a video and ask him what he pays local caddies and will ask some other players as well


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You should offer to carry the bag for one of them and promise not to make a social media spectacle of what they pay you, then wink. Then when they ask you why you winked, just nod and ask, "What wink?" Then wink again and get your phone out.

 

[tequila4kapp]

Because every pro I have PERSONALLY met has always been willing to pay 10 percent of earnings. Like I said perhaps I have only met decent pros.

Also this in not a employer- employee situation. It’s a contractor situation, and if people don’t understand the difference in that then don’t understand business very well
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And this is where I think Kuchar is getting a bit of a raw deal. He took all the risk out of the equation for the caddie by offering to pay him 3K regardless. Right from the start this was not a typical caddie / player arrangement. What would we be saying if Kuchar missed the cut then came back and said I shouldn't have to pay anything because X% of 0 is 0? I just feel like a deal is a deal is a deal.

 

[JB]

Also I am hosting a web tour player this year at my house (don’t know who it will be yet) I will take a video and ask him what he pays local caddies and will ask some other players as well


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We have a web.com caddy (not sure on his regularity, just know that he's out there a fair bit) as a member at my course.

I'll try and get his thoughts as well.

If you are going to ask them the %, you should probably also ask them what they pay up front.