Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

[JDax]

What’s real funny with this thread is a I am huge conservative in my thoughts, I am afraid I am going to labeled a liberal haha


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At least we can all agree on this...


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[PKorf]

Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

I have no opinion on the subject, but let me ask a generic question since some are running pretty hot on the subject.

Let's say a player hires a local caddie because his/hers falls ill. He/she knows the course pretty well and they agree to an amount to carry the bag. After about a day, he realizes he is playing really well, has a shot, but the caddie has not helped a single bit. In fact they don't communicate at all. Literally nothing, other than player telling caddie what club and caddie carrying clubs from hole to hole.

Player wins "in spite" of not having any assistance, does he owe the caddie a bonus for the work?

Absolutely not. I don’t get a bonus at work for doing nothing over the top. I don’t get a bonus at work for just doing my job. In fact I don’t give out bonuses to anyone who is basically just carrying their own weight. Show me and prove to me why you deserve a bonus. If you do, then hell yea you’ll get rewarded. Now, if the business unit as a whole from everyone’s efforts goes over and beyond then there will be a bonus for the team and it will be split evenly amongst those who participated. If during that time someone on my team is ill and is a main contributor to our success we will hire a temp to fill that role for a short period of time.........that temp will not get a bonus because they are not a full time employee of said company. They’re simply that....a temporary fix until I get my team back to whole.

Now, if that temp wowed my effing socks off during that time.....then I sure as hell would try to find a full time position for him/her somewhere. But it’s not really my fault if there’s no room for him on my or anyone else’s team. Getting a full time job would be a huge huge huge “BONUS”


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[PKorf]

Some players insist their caddie does not talk much and, or, talk only when asked a question. Other players like a chatty caddie. It's personal preference and about what style of caddie helps the player shoot his lowest scores.
To answer your question, I would be thrilled to pay the caddie 10% because that meant I won the tournament. This means the 1st prize money, the 2 year exemption, the Masters invite, larger future endorsement dollars etc... With all that positive happening for me why wouldn't I honor the tradition of paying the caddie 10% for carrying my winning bag ?
Before this Kuchar situation I doubt any Tour pro had ever heard of a winning bag caddie not receiving 10%. Kuchar deciding to pay less than 10% is such a questionable thing , and I believe that is why Tweeter pro Gillis felt compelled to write about it.
To me it is irrelevant whether the caddie of a winning bag was my long time Tour caddie, a kid I met on the range Monday morning, a local caddie , or my sister-in-law. A winning bag is a winning bag.

What if there was no caddie and the golf cart was the one carrying the clubs and a gps device was the one giving yardages. Should you tip them 10%??


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[Just_Hacking]

Something that occurred to me is if when the situation arises again at Mayakoba (and I am sure it will sooner or later), does the pro looking for a caddie on short notice seek this guy out or avoid him like the plague? I am not so sure he did himself any favors by how he handled this. I am nor sure of a pro would want to run the risk of going through something similar. And for the record, I think they had a deal and Kuch stuck to that deal. Would it have been nice for Kuch to willingly pay him a little more? Yeah, but I don't begrudge him one bit for sticking to the agreement that was made before the start of the tournament. I am sure that had Kuch missed the cut the caddie would have been over the moon excited with his payday.

 

[fuffle master]

Asking this to the people in my office and the feelings are very similar to this thread.

Some think Kuchar was cheap and should pay more.

Others think a tip is a tip and it’s Kuchar’s money to pay as he sees fit. That the caddie should be happy with what he got.

Just thought that was interesting how this forum plays out the same as just a few people in my office.


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[DG_1234]

Why is Kuch a cheapskate for paying 166% of the agreed upon amount? Please explain your opinion without referencing how much Kuchar grossed that weekend.

Also, what finishing position for Kuchar would have been suitable for the agreed upon amount? Would $3K been enough if he had finished top-5? Top 10? Made the cut? When did the agreed upon amount become insufficient?

My point is that we're only calling him cheap relative to how much he grossed that weekend. But when they agreed to the deal, Kuchar was even par and hadn't made the cut. In light of that, he agreed to pay El Toucan $3K out of his own pocket. I'd say that's very generous of Kuch!

Most Tour players, for the Mayacoba event, I expect would do the following:

Missed cut, $3,000 paid to the caddie would be fine, appropriate.
For a made cut finishing 50th ($17,000 payout for the player) , no extra pay.
For a 20th place finish ($100,000 payout for the player) , $3,000 plus an additional $2,000, total of $5,000 paid to the caddie.
For a 10th place finish ($165,000 payout for the player), $3,000 plus an additional $7,000 for a total of $10,000 paid to the caddie.
For a win ($1,300,000 payout to the player), 10% $130,000 paid to the caddie.

 

[Golf Ghost]

Because every pro I have PERSONALLY met has always been willing to pay 10 percent of earnings. Like I said perhaps I have only met decent pros.

Also this in not a employer- employee situation. It’s a contractor situation, and if people don’t understand the difference in that then don’t understand business very well


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10% of any earnings or 10% if they get first?

Just curious mostly because your situation is different than most of the experience people I know had at our tournament.

I also wonder how much of it was a cost thing. Most caddies didn't come to our event because it was out of the way of the normal rotation so flying was basically required. Only the top 20 guys, maybe, actually brought their own caddies.

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[PKorf]

Most Tour players, for the Mayacoba event, I expect would do the following:

Missed cut, $3,000 paid to the caddie would be fine, appropriate.
For a made cut finishing 50th ($17,000 payout for the player) , no extra pay.
For a 20th place finish ($100,000 payout for the player) , $3,000 plus an additional $2,000, total of $5,000 paid to the caddie.
For a 10th place finish ($165,000 payout for the player), $3,000 plus an additional $7,000 for a total of $10,000 paid to the caddie.
For a win ($1,300,000 payout to the player), 10% $130,000 paid to the caddie.

Were you in fact a pro caddie at some point to know these figures so well and readily available? Real question here no sarcasm...


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[campilobaxter]

If anyone thinks a half of a percent is the right thing then I will just continue to shake my head


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That's because you've framed the issue as compensation = a percentage of Kuch's winnings. Others frame it as what was the agreed upon wage for the service provided? Same amount was paid under both scenarios, with wildly different views on what the "right" thing to do is.

 

[Misike]

If the player is shooting a low score, the caddie is performing well.
I'm not sure where player-caddie-communication-talking came to be thought of as a benefit to the player. For example Angelo Argea worked for Nicklaus for 20 years , including 17 Major victories, and the two rarely spoke.

I caddied at a pro am at Firestone long time ago. Got tipped $100 bucks. Won’t say from who. Player shot really well, I’m pretty sure I didn’t have much to do with that. I was the mule to carry clubs, rake bunkers, etc. Probably switch me out with any other local caddie and the score is the same. If I had to bet on it, I’d say Kutcher won b/c he was playing good, not b/c of anything his caddie did. Just my opinion though.

 

[campilobaxter]

Most Tour players, for the Mayacoba event, I expect would do the following:

Missed cut, $3,000 paid to the caddie would be fine, appropriate.
For a made cut finishing 50th ($17,000 payout for the player) , no extra pay.
For a 20th place finish ($100,000 payout for the player) , $3,000 plus an additional $2,000, total of $5,000 paid to the caddie.
For a 10th place finish ($165,000 payout for the player), $3,000 plus an additional $7,000 for a total of $10,000 paid to the caddie.
For a win ($1,300,000 payout to the player), 10% $130,000 paid to the caddie.

Were you in fact a pro caddie at some point to know these figures so well and readily available? Real question here no sarcasm...


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Yeah I'd like to know the source of your information.

 

[DG_1234]

Yeah I'd like to know the source of your information.

Here again is a link to a 2015 Forbes Magazine article about the Tour player-caddie business relationship:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtba...st-paid-caddies-on-the-pga-tour/#3f3924506097

 

[JB]

Here again is a link to a 2015 Forbes Magazine article about the Tour player-caddie business relationship:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtba...st-paid-caddies-on-the-pga-tour/#3f3924506097

Some players insist their caddie does not talk much and, or, talk only when asked a question. Other players like a chatty caddie. It's personal preference and about what style of caddie helps the player shoot his lowest scores.
To answer your question, I would be thrilled to pay the caddie 10% because that meant I won the tournament. This means the 1st prize money, the 2 year exemption, the Masters invite, larger future endorsement dollars etc... With all that positive happening for me why wouldn't I honor the tradition of paying the caddie 10% for carrying my winning bag ?
Before this Kuchar situation I doubt any Tour pro had ever heard of a winning bag caddie not receiving 10%. Kuchar deciding to pay less than 10% is such a questionable thing , and I believe that is why Tweeter pro Gillis felt compelled to write about it.
To me it is irrelevant whether the caddie of a winning bag was my long time Tour caddie, a kid I met on the range Monday morning, a local caddie , or my sister-in-law. A winning bag is a winning bag.

Can you offer some current examples of players insisting their caddies only talk when asked a question?
And there are some serious things incorrect here. 10% for the win is not the ONLY way its done. In fact currently, 8% across the board is becoming a thing. Some of these items WERE the way it was done a couple of decades ago, but some things have changed. Hell, Digest has done multiple stories on it over the last few years and even talked back in 2015 about how 8% across the board was being done.

Then add in the fact that the pay up front for the week is higher than a number of caddies make, which have a range that start at $1500 and go up from there.

And one more note. There are players on the PGA Tour that don't bonus the same way based on finish. Instead they offer large base salaries and bonuses sprinkled in.

Im still really curious about the current players that do not allow their caddies to talk. I think that is pretty fascinating, so bumping this.

 

[CobraX51]

Here again is a link to a 2015 Forbes Magazine article about the Tour player-caddie business relationship:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtba...st-paid-caddies-on-the-pga-tour/#3f3924506097

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[DG_1234]

Im still really curious about the current players that do not allow their caddies to talk. I think that is pretty fascinating, so bumping this.

You might want to attend some PGA Tour events , Thursday thru Sunday rounds, observing the players and their caddies.

 

[JB]

You might want to attend some PGA Tour events , Thursday thru Sunday rounds, observing the players and their caddies.

Hahha. I have been to a few over the years.

You said "Some players insist their caddie does not talk much and, or, talk only when asked a question."

Its only logical to ask for a single instance where this is occurring. If its made up, thats fine.
I mean its no different than this "It would be nearly impossible to find a caddie who did not receive 10% for a winning PGA Tour bag." which is not accurate at all.

Its all good though.

__________________________

Obviously the topic is getting off hand, but there are facts out there, including not everybody pays 10% (and 8% across is gaining traction). Some players have flat salary arrangements with bonuses here and there. Caddies make starting at $1500 per week, and this one got double that, which is good on that side of it.

 

[mikedean441]

What’s real funny with this thread is a I am huge conservative in my thoughts, I am afraid I am going to labeled a liberal haha


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too late for that remember

 

[JDax]

That's because you've framed the issue as compensation = a percentage of Kuch's winnings. Others frame it as what was the agreed upon wage for the service provided? Same amount was paid under both scenarios, with wildly different views on what the "right" thing to do is.

I think that everyone can agree that the Caddie was a lousy negotiator....


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[JDax]

Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

I think that everyone can agree that the Caddie was a lousy negotiator....

3K should have been his downside guarantee, and he should have negotiated for some upside bonuses based of performance and Kuch’s finish...

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[KEV]

Wow this thread really took off today! It seems really simple, Kuchar and the caddie made a deal at a time where Kuchar didn't even know if he would make the cut. That's all he is obligated to pay the caddie, the end. Does it make Kuch look cheap if he actually didn't pay him any more? Yep. Ultimately it's his decision and as long as he fulfilled his obligation that's all that matters.

I can understand the caddie being frustrated or thinking Kuchar could have thrown him a little extra but he should have thought of that when they were negotiating.

 

[DG_1234]

. Does it make Kuch look cheap if he actually didn't pay him any more? Yep. Ultimately it's his decision and as long as he fulfilled his obligation that's all that matters.
.

Earlier in this thread I wrote that what might "matter" the most is the damage his reputation, image may suffer.
The majority here wrote that Kuchar's reputation, image, marketability etc.... will not suffer at all. That it's a "non story" here today, gone tomorrow.
Time will tell.

 

[KEV]

Earlier in this thread I wrote that what might "matter" the most is the damage his reputation, image may suffer.
The majority here wrote that Kuchar's reputation, image, marketability etc.... will not suffer at all. That it's a "non story" here today, gone tomorrow.
Time will tell.

I think in 6 months no one will even think about it and a year from now no one will remember it. For the most part most of the population forgets about these things as time passes. I'm sure he'll get a whole lot of crap about it from other players and people around him for awhile but this will be an afterthought in a few weeks.

 

[fuffle master]

I think in 6 months no one will even think about it and a year from now no one will remember it. For the most part most of the population forgets about these things as time passes. I'm sure he'll get a whole lot of crap about it from other players and people around him for awhile but this will be an afterthought in a few weeks.

The only thing that might happen is IF Kuchar plans to attend the same event next year and it’s at the same location, then it could come up. Other then that, yep gone and forgotten very soon.


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[Greg Kulbick]

I think in 6 months no one will even think about it

Its pronounced days.

 

[DG_1234]

I think in 6 months no one will even think about it and a year from now no one will remember it. For the most part most of the population forgets about these things as time passes. I'm sure he'll get a whole lot of crap about it from other players and people around him for awhile but this will be an afterthought in a few weeks.

Your perspective is shared by the overwhelming majority here, and you may be right.
I really don't know the criteria which corporate sponsors, corporate event hosts , advertisers etc... use to to evaluate and decide which player and how much to pay him/her .