Who's going to putt with flag in ???

Alright so I did this on like 2 holes last round on long putts. The reason I didn't try it more is because it was pretty windy and the flag would be leaning to one side or the other based on wind direction.

This weekend it looks more promising with wind, and I think I'm going to take the DeChambeau approach of trying this on putts longer than 10-15 feet, and hope for a kind "backstop"
 
Two rounds in with this new rule. The only advantage I see is the fact that if someone would normally need the pin tended that no longer has to occur so all others can be getting their line and getting ready to putt. If that player is a decent putter and no one else would need to have it tended when they putt, that first player either taps in, or marks his ball and is close enough to pull the pin for anyone who wants it out. The first person in the hole always picks up the flagstick and is prepared to replace it when we are done. In our foursome we have yet to run into a situation where one wants it out while another wants it in. It is more, "It doesn't matter". No time really gained and not seeing anytime being really lost doing it this way. Still playing in the same 3:00-3:15 range, no faster, no slower.
 
Played a single round in a three ball. Handicaps 8,9,12.

Normal pace for a 3 Ball for 18 holes on our 6067y golf course is 3:30. We finished in 3:00 flat. Stableford scores for the day 42, 38 and 34(me). Given ...conditions where great for this time of the year.

With active encouragement from all players we won time on lag putts, only pulling the flag when someone was close enough to do so (one step) and anybody that is ready hits first on the Tee Box.

We where the first group out and gained a hole on the rest of our role-up ( 3 Three balls) who in turn gained a hole on the rest of the field.

Slowest of our group had 2 x >15 Hcp in the group and lost a ball. The 6 Hcp following them shot 45 points for a personal best round of 69.

What I’m trying to convey is that the new rules as a whole definitely works but it has limitations to higher Handicap player due to extra wayward shots, lost balls, etc. and to work they need to be actively enforced and you need to remind everybody to apply the new rules.

In our group we needed to keep reminding the 9 handicapper to crack on as he was standing with driver in hand on Tee box but he was still conforming to the old habit of lowest score has the honers. He got it on the second nine and then we really picked up speed. If analysed he is actually the quickest player from Green to T so should crack on asap thus giving the rest of us time to fill in cards and select clubs.

Defending my score I had a shocking bunker shot out of a frozen Bunker and I lost a ball trying to get to 36 points by going more than Tiger Line. Just trying to convey that the speed of play did not affect our scoring.

We where fast on the greens and T-box and never felt rushed in the fairway. I noticed everybody had the correct club in hand when it was there turn to play. This saves loads of time.

As a roll-up we have never been known to be slow and in fact a few of us joined this group due to that reputation so I will describe us as well paced. Most of the players in this group perform better when playing faster and we welcome the new rules.

Amandla!
 
Happy 2019 people!!!

New rules today ...
So who's going to putt with the flag in ???

I'm undecided but lazy , so will probably do it for long putts when I don't want to wait, or tap ins when I can't be bothered :)

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This is basically my thoughts.
 
Played one round so far with the flag in on every hole. I actually caught myself trying to remove it on #3, but put it back.

I kinda wonder if it was messing with my head because I missed a few from 2' or so that normally would be tap-in. I'm sure I'll get used to it. If I keep doing that for several rounds, I might start pulling it when I'm close enough to do so easily.

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I've played two rounds so far this year. The first round I was paired with three others that I didn't know. No one mentioned the flagstick but someone (other than me) pulled the pin on every hole once we were all on the green. I didn't object and so putted as I always had. The second round I was with my regular group (plus a single paired with the three of us). We left the flag in for every hole. No one requested it be removed.

It's too early to tell long term but my putting stats for the two rounds were as follows:
First round without flagstick: 36 total putts (2 one putts, 14 two putts, and 2 three putts)
Second round with flagstick: 34 total putts (5 one putts, 10 two putts, and 3 three putts)

Both rounds were played on the same course but with obviously different pin positions.
 
Definitely too early to make any long term judgements, but after my first round, I had 6 holes out of 18 that I think it affected (mostly mentally).

On #1, I hit a 15' putt to save bogey and was elated. I was really hoping the rest of the day would go that way. Unfortunately, I had four 3putts on the day after that and all of them, to the best of my recollection, included a miss from inside 3'. I'm fairly sure all of them were pulls, too. I just felt like I was pulling it to keep from bouncing off the flagstick. I also had one 2 putt bogey that I feel I should have made par on based on the same circumstances as above.

I'll give it a few rounds to see if it was just a bad day or what. At this point, I can see where I might use the flag if I'm further than 5' or so and pull it when I get really close, but I'm not ready to give in just yet.
 
I’m encouraging my boys and girls HS golfers to putt with the flag in.

Boom.
 
I’m encouraging my boys and girls HS golfers to putt with the flag in.

Boom.

I see no reason not to... unless it's a mental hurdle I can't get past. Only time will tell. I'll give it a half dozen rounds or so.
 
I headed to Florida with 2 buddies, 16 and 27 handicap, they didn't know the rule had changed, neither one liked to putt with the flag in, for them it was mentally distracting. I didn't mind it at all.

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I’ve played 2 rounds now where we all left the flag in and I think I’m all in on leaving it in for all putts.


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I heard Spieth was as putting with it in. Think I saw it on Twitter, didn’t actually get to see it myself.
 
Great video on a controlled experiment with flag in/out. Apologies in advance if already posted.

https://youtu.be/Mc90UbpJbuM

and that on top of Pelz's old study which took things far greater than that, still people are going to insist on pulling it.


I think the biggest thing (which shouldn't matter at all) yet will be what change more peoples minds is going to be "if" enough pros start doing it. Problem is soon as one hits a pole and it doesn't drop they are most likely going to blame the pin for it even though the reality is the putt would probably not went in anyway and likely would have ended up further from the hole as well. But its not going to matter because many are going to overlook that "established fact" and still blame the pin. We already had many people who said soon as one hits a pin and doesn't drop they will always be pulling it. Hence exactly what Im talking about and Imo people need to open their mind to what the facts actually suggest.

On top of that greater chance of sinking balls we also have the potential here for a better general flow to the game overall. That's a positive in itself even if the ball studies indicated it made no difference. Of course they indicate it does help and so Imo its a win/win to leave it be.
 
I'm planning on leaving it for everything other than putts inside 5ft or so, unless they're sharply downhill/sidehill. I know that it's better to leave it in, but I miss the sound of the ball rattling in the hole on a made putt :)
 
When it’s makes sense such as when I’m playing alone or when it helps me with slope or depth perception.
 
I'm planning on leaving it for everything other than putts inside 5ft or so, unless they're sharply downhill/sidehill. I know that it's better to leave it in, but I miss the sound of the ball rattling in the hole on a made putt :)
and so...do what you wish of course, but..

so (as an example) the 4some has gone through the putting and everyone is almost all done exept for your final 3/4/5 footer as the last one. Which sounds about normal thus far. Hopefully your 4 footer isn't your second putt after lag putting where as you could have already finished it out as long as you were not standing on another's line. That's something in itself too many people don't so. And imo even when on or near enough another's line it still should be done. In fact Im all for a rule that states once putting we are (regardless of lines) to continue until holed and without ever lifting ball again.

Anyway,...….And so at this point as pretty normal routine all are leaving ample room around you as per normal good etiquette so as not to disturb your (and as a group) the final putt. And perhaps a couple people might even be somewhat heading to their bags or whatever the case. But wait....instead of just putting and everyone moving on in smooth flow you now need someone to pull the pin or you have to stop and go and pull it yourself and lie it down somewhere and then reset for your putt. Either way their is now some disturbance (even if a little less or a little more) to the flow that otherwise would not exist. All because you need to hear the ball/cup noise or because its a sharp hill. Not only is it a flow disturbance but now your losing the small extra benefit of leaving the pin. And therefore increasing the odds that you may end up having to take another putt which of course would then add more noticeably measurable time and flow disturbance. And if both hypothetical putts(pin in or out) were to miss its also known that hitting the pin allowed for misses to end up staying closer to the hole. So now you may have a second putt and it may also be one that is longer form the hole which again adds to more time lining things up vs being closer and increases the odds of even missing again.

Im sorry but I just don't get the resistance to just leave the flag alone for too many people.
 
I am going to leave the pin in the cup. So far, I have 12 instances of 10 feet (or greater) putts that have hit the pin and 11 have dropped into the cup.
 
I tried it on longer putts but no more. What would have been my one birdie of the round today from 25 feet hit the pin and ended up an inch left of the hole. And it was traveling at a normal pace when it hit the pin.
 
and so...do what you wish of course, but..

so (as an example) the 4some has gone through the putting and everyone is almost all done exept for your final 3/4/5 footer as the last one. Which sounds about normal thus far. Hopefully your 4 footer isn't your second putt after lag putting where as you could have already finished it out as long as you were not standing on another's line. That's something in itself too many people don't so. And imo even when on or near enough another's line it still should be done. In fact Im all for a rule that states once putting we are (regardless of lines) to continue until holed and without ever lifting ball again.

Anyway,...….And so at this point as pretty normal routine all are leaving ample room around you as per normal good etiquette so as not to disturb your (and as a group) the final putt. And perhaps a couple people might even be somewhat heading to their bags or whatever the case. But wait....instead of just putting and everyone moving on in smooth flow you now need someone to pull the pin or you have to stop and go and pull it yourself and lie it down somewhere and then reset for your putt. Either way their is now some disturbance (even if a little less or a little more) to the flow that otherwise would not exist. All because you need to hear the ball/cup noise or because its a sharp hill. Not only is it a flow disturbance but now your losing the small extra benefit of leaving the pin. And therefore increasing the odds that you may end up having to take another putt which of course would then add more noticeably measurable time and flow disturbance. And if both hypothetical putts(pin in or out) were to miss its also known that hitting the pin allowed for misses to end up staying closer to the hole. So now you may have a second putt and it may also be one that is longer form the hole which again adds to more time lining things up vs being closer and increases the odds of even missing again.

Im sorry but I just don't get the resistance to just leave the flag alone for too many people.

I play almost exclusively by myself first thing in the morning (or in the cold, as it happens to be this time of year).
 
I tried it on longer putts but no more. What would have been my one birdie of the round today from 25 feet hit the pin and ended up an inch left of the hole. And it was traveling at a normal pace when it hit the pin.

and you've never had a putt from 25ft appearing to be normal speed that went over or lipped out or whatever else? The facts of the study/ies indicate that not only did you had a better chance of making it but likely ended up closer to the hole for second putt than you might have with the pin out. But of course those facts will be completely ignored and the bird miss was due to the pin. Unless you play with thicker than normal pins or it was windy enough to bend the pin significantly your miss was (via the odds) most likely a miss with the pin out in some other fashion and also further from the hole after the miss.
 
and you've never had a putt from 25ft appearing to be normal speed that went over or lipped out or whatever else? The facts of the study/ies indicate that not only did you had a better chance of making it but likely ended up closer to the hole for second putt than you might have with the pin out. But of course those facts will be completely ignored and the bird miss was due to the pin. Unless you play with thicker than normal pins or it was windy enough to bend the pin significantly your miss was (via the odds) most likely a miss with the pin out in some other fashion and also further from the hole after the miss.
One other issue is that the pins are not always completely centered the way they would be for a tour event. I play at a public course and the cups are often not synced level like they would be in a professional event. Another issue that has to be factored in is comfort level. If more confident with the pin out, you st and a better chance at making a more comfortable stroke IMO.
 
Great video on a controlled experiment with flag in/out. Apologies in advance if already posted.

https://youtu.be/Mc90UbpJbuM

I didn't really need more convincing but those results would be difficult to ignore if I was on the fence. Holing 390/500 (flag in) versus 275/500 (flag out) of what looked to be five or six footers that were hit a bit too hard. Too often I suffer from 'decel' issues on putts in that range. Now I can just leave the pin in and jam em home.
 
Kevin Chappel said on the foreplay pod that the rule will be changed by the end of the year. Reverting back to old rule due to the flagstick left in being to big an advantage. I believe Bryson and some others have said the same.

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