mar1961
New member
In on long putts (8-10+ feet). Out on short putts. If the flag or pole shadow is in my line, I take it out despite the length of the putt.
What's Happening? Flagstick In or Out?
Et Tu Brute?
Well-known member
No, not on Tour. But among the typical weekend golfers out playing in a dogfight or friendly Nassau, yes.
Et Tu Brute?
Well-known member
Yes, that's what I mean. It's only about 10-15% of the guys I play with right now. I think a year from now that 10-15% will be down to more like 2%, which is roughly same proportion as have always pulled the flag before chipping from off the green.
I'm not seeing anything close to 85-90% leaving the flagstick in here in Minnesota or the rounds I've played in Florida. I've played 55 rounds this year at a dozen or so courses with maybe 30 golfers and 75% of the guys are fine with it left in for putts over 25 feet but want it pulled for shorter putts. I've only played with one golfer that wants it in for all putts.
rickkimbrell
Active member
I prefer it out on anything inside 15 feet or so. I play in a tournament league and a few weeks ago played in group of 4 with 2 guys who insisted it be in the hole on every putt of theirs. It became pretty annoying but what I found funny was after the round was over a guy from the group behind us came up to me and commented..."You guys make it damn hard to shoot yardages when the flag is in, out, in, out". I laughed and told him he should have been in the group and had to deal with the flagstick all day long.
Of course he flagstick can cause bad putts to go in that otherwise would not. I never said that never happens as I've seen it with guys who have really poor distance control.
As far as that "tenth of a stroke per round difference to your long-term scoring" or "tiny fraction of a stroke", you are correct, it is a tiny fraction over time for me given the amount of golf that I play. However, although it may be a tenth of a stroke or tiny fraction over time it is a full stroke when it happens. That full stroke during that round could cause the loss of a match, the loss of a tournament, prevent someone from shooting their personal best or achieve a personal goal such as breaking 100, 90, 80, par, whatever.
So as long as I have the option under the Rules I will continue to pull it. If someone in the group insists that it be in for all or any of their putts I'll gladly oblige as that is their option under the Rules.
Et Tu Brute?
Well-known member
Exactly.
You're using a tiny little smidgen of everyone's time in search of a remote possibility of maybe gaining an advantage. Occasionally.
That's pretty much the source of all slow play. We can only be thankful that the Rules, on this one small matter, have finally given the rest of us the option of ignoring that particular bit of useless delay. Nothing we can do about the practice swings or visualization exercises or waggles or all that other stuff...although I guess there's a remote chance the Rules might help us out with the alignment line putting thing.
Do you have a handicap? Do you play mostly handicapped games? Because if so, the 0.094593475 stroke per round advantage you gain by pulling the flagstick will simply result in your handicap index going down by something in the neighborhood of a 1/10 of a stroke.
But you're right, nobody can stop you from taking that extra few seconds on every hole in search of "improving" from a 7.2 to 7.1 index!
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2015
- Messages
- 7,620
- Reaction score
- 4,242
- Thread starter
- #183
Ah, but it speeds up play. Just ask the infinitely wise folks at the USGA and R&A.
Me and my normal playing partners are not using up anyone’s time. Quite the opposite. I’ve played 56 rounds this year and have yet to have another group keep up with us when nobody is in front of us. When my regular foursome has the first tee time of the day, we finish in under 3 hours. I’ve gone out as a twosome early morning twice this year with the course open and finished in 2:15 or less both times.
For me the hole looks bigger with the flagstick out and that gives me confidence standing over the ball. Confidence is worth a lot more than the number of .09 strokes per round that you have pulled out of thin air. For me being more confident standing over a putt could easily mean one or more extra putts made per round. A big difference for someone like me who’s trying to get back down to the plus side of scratch. Besides, I love the sound of a golf ball rattling around in the bottom of the cup, the flagstick in robs of that sound 18 times each round, lol.
rollin
"Just playin golf pally"
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2012
- Messages
- 12,622
- Reaction score
- 1,113
- Location
- planet earth, milky way galaxy
- Handicap
- 15.7
from many past posts by you in this as well as other threads, you and your partners are usually not at all golfing where long problematic rounds are an issue. And you yourselves are doing things and moving about with good efficiency as for ever being any cause of any pace issues. So that part is a non issues for you guys in your circle and world. But when talking about players and places where things are not at all so pleasant pace wise, it is normally due to a number of things. Much of which happens around and on the greens. And one small part of that can be helped via now allowing the pin to stay put where as no one has to ever bother with it. That is one way in which does help the flow of play. It simply makes things for the far less time efficient players just a little smoother flowing. It adds a little efficiency by default. Doesn't affect you and your circle I can agree with that but does imo affect groups and crowded courses with many groups who need that bit of extra efficiency to help them move along just a bit better.
As for being in the head and confidence? That part only takes some time to get use to. had it always been this way (pin being left in all the time) it would be normal and we would all be use to it. In fact if they made the rule 100% in and no choice I think even by now this season it would already be something most would be perfectly use to as a norm and no longer in the head at all.
Et Tu Brute?
Well-known member
Just so. If the Rules had said for the last 50 years that the flagstick must remain in the hole at all times and now they were changed to allow the option of pulling it out before putting, these exact same people would be bothered by how having someone pull the flagstick out messes with their head.
rollin
"Just playin golf pally"
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2012
- Messages
- 12,622
- Reaction score
- 1,113
- Location
- planet earth, milky way galaxy
- Handicap
- 15.7
And also would get use to it in some time.
rollin
"Just playin golf pally"
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2012
- Messages
- 12,622
- Reaction score
- 1,113
- Location
- planet earth, milky way galaxy
- Handicap
- 15.7
why is it those who want it out (even if a minority) are far less willing to cooperate?
As you all know I prefer to leave it be (leave it in). That said when Im the only one who in the group I cooperate and pull it. At other times when its 2 vs 2 its "always" been the 2 who prefer it in that give way to the other two. The two who want it out are never willing to cooperate the other way. And at the times there is only one person who wants it out (like today what happened in my group) whiule the other 3 want to leave it in, Im finding that one person gets his way. Its most always the one/s who want it out that do not cooperate and are not willing to. Why is that?
Ive yet to play with one single person who wants it in that did not give way to one who wants it out. Yet Ive found most all those (that Ive played with) who want it out pull it and never cooperate the other way even when outnumbered 3 to 1.
Today was yet another example of 3 who like to leave it and yet the one lone person who had to pull it, just had to go and get it or have one of us go and take care of it. It was hot and humid and all us 3 others just wanted to tend to our own stuff and not bother with the pin. But of course mr pin out had to disrupt things on most every hole. Worst part was pulling the pin and missing most the putts anyway.
Honestly it became a bit aggravating after a while. We just wanted to play, take care of our shots, and move about without dealing with the pin. yet constantly he himself had to stop what he was doing to go get it, or one of us had to go get it for him. It was disruptive, annoying , and hurt the flow. Wasnt any slow play problem but still was just disruptive to the other 3 of us. One of the others got a bit annoyed and made a comment later ion the round. It was a friendly sarcastic comment but none the less he had becom annoyed with it. He had just walked I the heat and humidity across the very large green to go and chip on from the other side, then as he gets close enough while we were all still lag putting and Mr pin out says "can you pull the pin?" the gentleman actually got annoyed. he needed to still line up his own putt and was already a bit beat from the heat/humidity and long walk and play he just took. So he commented something a bit sarcastic and I don't blame him. Nothing was made of it at all. But point being its like "really"?
Why are those who want it out the ones who are not willing to cooperate? I see this regularly. I acgtually see less and less people pulling it overall but as that grows Im seeing more and more of the unwillingness on the part of the out people much more than I see it from the in people. in fact I havnt yet to see it at all from the in people.
As you all know I prefer to leave it be (leave it in). That said when Im the only one who in the group I cooperate and pull it. At other times when its 2 vs 2 its "always" been the 2 who prefer it in that give way to the other two. The two who want it out are never willing to cooperate the other way. And at the times there is only one person who wants it out (like today what happened in my group) whiule the other 3 want to leave it in, Im finding that one person gets his way. Its most always the one/s who want it out that do not cooperate and are not willing to. Why is that?
Ive yet to play with one single person who wants it in that did not give way to one who wants it out. Yet Ive found most all those (that Ive played with) who want it out pull it and never cooperate the other way even when outnumbered 3 to 1.
Today was yet another example of 3 who like to leave it and yet the one lone person who had to pull it, just had to go and get it or have one of us go and take care of it. It was hot and humid and all us 3 others just wanted to tend to our own stuff and not bother with the pin. But of course mr pin out had to disrupt things on most every hole. Worst part was pulling the pin and missing most the putts anyway.
Honestly it became a bit aggravating after a while. We just wanted to play, take care of our shots, and move about without dealing with the pin. yet constantly he himself had to stop what he was doing to go get it, or one of us had to go get it for him. It was disruptive, annoying , and hurt the flow. Wasnt any slow play problem but still was just disruptive to the other 3 of us. One of the others got a bit annoyed and made a comment later ion the round. It was a friendly sarcastic comment but none the less he had becom annoyed with it. He had just walked I the heat and humidity across the very large green to go and chip on from the other side, then as he gets close enough while we were all still lag putting and Mr pin out says "can you pull the pin?" the gentleman actually got annoyed. he needed to still line up his own putt and was already a bit beat from the heat/humidity and long walk and play he just took. So he commented something a bit sarcastic and I don't blame him. Nothing was made of it at all. But point being its like "really"?
Why are those who want it out the ones who are not willing to cooperate? I see this regularly. I acgtually see less and less people pulling it overall but as that grows Im seeing more and more of the unwillingness on the part of the out people much more than I see it from the in people. in fact I havnt yet to see it at all from the in people.
pilot25
Active member
I don't see that at all when I play. Most everyone is accommodating. I tell people, up front, I'm in until within 10 feet then I take it out. I tell them they can play out first then I'll go and handle the flag so they don't feel obligated. Usually they head to their cart and on to the next tee. I hit off the tee last and it all keeps pace.
I find most people keep it in because they are lazy vs. some aiming benefit. Laziness is another animal vs. caring about putting well. So therefore they can still be lazy and I can have the flag out when it suits me. I'm not lazy and I'm not there to drink beer and make golf only 50% of the day. I think this goes back to the thread of, "Would you rather play alone or with strangers."
The guy you were with should have let you guys finish out first then he could play away. Its less of a problem. It hasn't been a problem for hundreds of year but now suddenly it is.
Not willing to cooperate, the way you explain it, is you want it your way. Actual cooperation would be to have it in and have it out an equal amount of time. Its not a democracy when everyone paid hard earned money to play and rules dictate it can be in or out. I wouldn't have had a problem telling you guys to go ahead and play as a threesome since the pin was clearly a cumbersome problem to you. If its a weekend at a public course then you are waiting on the tee anyway. The 10 seconds it takes to pull and put the flag back isn't going to change pace. However, everyone seems to want to hurry up and wait.
Last edited:
Most of my group of seniors (total of 30 +) keep the flag in. A couple of the eldest pull it within 10 feet. But not pulling it does save time unless it gets put back in after pulling repeatedly. I prefer having a target.
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2014
- Messages
- 14,794
- Reaction score
- 8,579
- Location
- Webster Groves, MO
- Handicap
- 8.1 GHIN
I’d rather have it pulled but it matters so little I don’t care.
The rule however needs to change. Agree to one way or the other at the beginning of the round and stick to it. Keep the flag in for every putt or pull it as soon as everyone is in the green.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The rule however needs to change. Agree to one way or the other at the beginning of the round and stick to it. Keep the flag in for every putt or pull it as soon as everyone is in the green.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
pilot25
Active member
What if you are 30 feet away and can't see the hole? You need it tended then. Which is how it was forever.
pilot25
Active member
Helps that you are almost a scratch golfer. Even if the guy you are playing with stinks. Though I find playing that fast isn't enjoyable.
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2014
- Messages
- 14,794
- Reaction score
- 8,579
- Location
- Webster Groves, MO
- Handicap
- 8.1 GHIN
pilot25
Active member
I agree.
Acesteve
Well-known member
I found it odd in January to leave the stick in but now my foursome leaves it in all the time and I can't see that it hurts or helps us. What it does it help us with speed every now and again. We play ready golf and anyone who is reading (putting, chipping, in bunker) is free to go.
to my shock I played with relatives on vacation and they pulled the pin- it bothered me a bit.
to my shock I played with relatives on vacation and they pulled the pin- it bothered me a bit.
rollin
"Just playin golf pally"
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2012
- Messages
- 12,622
- Reaction score
- 1,113
- Location
- planet earth, milky way galaxy
- Handicap
- 15.7
No, the way I explain it is how I did. Your not reading or understanding my whole post.
I have and do cooperate (like many who would rather it be in) by agreeing to pull if in the minority. But its much more those who want it out who are not willing to do it the other way. They are far less willing to leave it in if they are the minority. And in fact even when its 2-2 its normally those who want it out who get it their way vs the other guys. By cooperate I don't mean share both ways but to go with the majority for sake of the group. The cooperation to do that far more often comes from those who would rather it be in and almost never from those who want it out.
This isn't (as I implied) so much about rushing at all. Its just about an easier flow to the play of the group around and on greens. Sure some of us are lazy (at times myself included) but most just want to go to their ball and ready themselves and line tings up etc. That's not about rushing through but only about a smoother flow and less to tend to and bother with specially when feeling it isn't necessary.
If you play with 3 others who want it in and your not willing to agree than your not cooperating because your not willing to accept the 3 others wishes. And that unwillingness from my experiences is coming far much more from those who want it out than those who would like to leave it be. They are being far more selfish than the others.
JabbathePutt
Member
Judging by the 14 pages of comments it appears this change is not going as smoothly as the USGA & R&A had hoped. My group is pretty casual but some of us have different preferences than others so we end up doing this flagstick hokey pokey dance a lot (you put the flag stick in. You pull the flagstick out...).
I imagine it would be worse with serious golfers and more so in a competition. Some golfers have different preferences depending on the putt so they have to state their preference on every putt. Even the question of tending the flag on long putts now has three possible answers instead of two.
Maybe this change speeds up play but I haven’t seen that. It certainly causes confusion.
I imagine it would be worse with serious golfers and more so in a competition. Some golfers have different preferences depending on the putt so they have to state their preference on every putt. Even the question of tending the flag on long putts now has three possible answers instead of two.
Maybe this change speeds up play but I haven’t seen that. It certainly causes confusion.
pilot25
Active member
It's not a democracy. There is no majority. Rules state I can take it out. Cooperating is me letting you play out and then you can move to the next tee and I'll catch up. Or cooperating is me leaving it in for long putts vs taking it out all the time even though I don't prefer it that way. Your idea of cooperation is some sort of vote so you can get your way. It isn't necessary to take it out to you but to others it is. You're being selfish and not cooperating with someone who likes the pin out.
I understand people wanting it in for a target but your way of thinking is ridiculously based on your own selfish behavior instead of understanding that others like it out. You need to look up the definition of cooperation and empathy because this isn't a flag in or out discussion with you.
Last edited:
Et Tu Brute?
Well-known member
The problem isn't with the Rule giving the option of in or out. The problem is that golfers are doofuses, easily influenced by so-called "scientific" click-bait claiming to "prove" that there's some advantage to their game from either leaving it in or taking it out.
The only rational approach to the Rules making it optional is just go along with whatever the guys you are playing with want to do. But golfers are not remotely rational. They always think they can get some kind of edge from their preferred way of handling the flag.
The only rational approach to the Rules making it optional is just go along with whatever the guys you are playing with want to do. But golfers are not remotely rational. They always think they can get some kind of edge from their preferred way of handling the flag.