I usually try to reach agreement how to deal with the flag before start. Normally there is consensus regarding in or out or some combination. By end of second hole the group normally learns how each want their flagstick and adjust accordingly. I have hard time understanding what's all the fuss about. It shouldn't be harder than this...
What's Happening? Flagstick In or Out?
rollin
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But (if you listen) I am saying that I (and many other flag in folks) are going with the majority. Whether you think its a democracy or not isnt the point. You need to look up what selfish means. Because by going with the majority I (or we) are indeed cooporating and in fact sacrificing my/our prefered method. Your implying Im selfish and yet what I am describing is just the opposite and is "unselfish".
You (by not being willing to go with the method the others prefer) is actually being the selfish one. My main point is that Im seeing the most unselfishness come from the "flag in" folks but am seeing far more selfishness from the "flag out" folks. They have been far less willing to make the sacrifice. They (as my point has been about) are (in my experiences) the ones much more willing to sacrifice their choice. That's "unselfish" and exactly the opposite of selfish. It is you (with due respect to you as I say this) but you who are being the selfish one.
I dont know how your failing to see that part. Your referring to me as selfish yet all Ive described is exactly the opposite. That's kind of the point of my recent posts of which we are conversing about. Your the one whos going to do what he wants regardless the others. And yet your calling me selfish? When I will go the other way if that's what the group wants? You need to rethink just who the selfish one is.
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The intent of the rule was not to make putting easier or give anyone an advantage. The intent was to speed up play. Clearly it’s not working. Hopefully the USGA and R&A will review and change it back to the original rule.
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Or if I may suggest the unthinkable, golfers might start using common sense now that the rule is in place
in general, more rules and more restrictions usually tend to slow things down, not speed it up.I have to agree with rollin that there are more 'flag out' players that are not willing to cooperate. Golf is a conservative sport and I fully understand that traditionalist (yes, the 'flag out' as it has always been) are more keen to keep the tradition rather than succumb to new ways.
I still think that players with common sense and respect to each other can agree one way or the other, so that it's not going to be stick in, stick out, stick in per player.
pilot25
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Do you hear yourself? Forced to play by how others want. That isn't compromise. It doesn't change anything to pace of play but because you don't want to touch the thing others should have to do what you want. Have it in during some situations and out for others. Or any other way of COMPROMISING. You don't have to touch it. In fact, there are ways of compromising that doesn't change how you play but that doesn't matter to you.
If 3 of 4 want to tee up from the front tees and 1 one wants to tee up from the tips but it interrupts what the other 3 consider their own way of having flow of the day should the 1 have to play from the front tee? I mean, "Most people just want to get to the tee and play ready golf. Tee up and go." If one is in the back we have to wait for them and can't do what we want." That is your attitude to that one golfer.
When I play as a single and paired with with 3 who want it in I let them play out and they can head to the cart and get going. Then I putt out. It takes no extra time. They aren't disrupted by their way of playing and neither am I. That is compromise. When I play with my 2 buddies that like it out too and we are paired with a single who likes it in we compromise by leaving it in for him. First person to putt out or is closest takes care of the thing so there is no disruption. The single doesn't have to touch it ever. That is compromise.
There is no majority rule. Selfish is forcing someone to play by your way of thinking instead of compromising. The flag is intrusive, bothersome, and taking it out doesn't do anything to the flow of the game. You disagree with that statement but the problem is you don't care what others think if there is some sort of mythical majority situation.
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pilot25
Active member
Or if I may suggest the unthinkable, golfers might start using common sense now that the rule is in place
I have to agree with rollin that there are more 'flag out' players that are not willing to cooperate. Golf is a conservative sport and I fully understand that traditionalist (yes, the 'flag out' as it has always been) are more keen to keep the tradition rather than succumb to new ways.
I still think that players with common sense and respect to each other can agree one way or the other, so that it's not going to be stick in, stick out, stick in per player.
It doesn't have to be stick in stick out stick in stick out. That is disruptive. It also has nothing to do with tradition either. Some think it is a distraction when putting. Especially if it is windy or there is a shadow on your line. It also doesn't have to be all in or all out all day but for some reason the stick in folks feel like it has to be one or the other and the rest should be forced to play their way instead of compromising and having it in during some situations and out in other situations.
I don't want it in ever but I'm willing to have it in during situations where merited. Stick in folks want it all their way all the time and if you don't do it my way then you are some sort of selfish rube.
I'll repeat, when I play as a single and paired with with 3 who want it in I let them play out and they can head to the cart and get going. Then I putt out. It takes no extra time. They aren't disrupted by their way of playing and neither am I. That is compromise. When I play with my 2 buddies that like it out too and we are paired with a single who likes it in we compromise by leaving it in for him. First person to putt out or is closest takes care of the thing so there is no disruption. The single doesn't have to touch it ever. That is compromise.
This majority grade school nonsense is ridiculously selfish.
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There are any number of instances that can be called "selfish" when it comes to golf. Is it selfish for me to have someone mark their ball even though they feel it is nowhere near my line? Is it selfish to ask someone to mark their ball instead of continuously putting because they would be standing in my line? Instead of playing "ready golf" on the green, is it being selfish to have those farther from the hole putt first so I can get a feel for the speed and break if I am closer? When playing "ready golf" would it be selfish of me to wait for someone else, father away, to hit first so one can get a better judge of the wind? As long as the Rules state I have the option when it comes to the flagstick then I will exercise that option either way, selfish as it may be.
Don't like the Rule? Tell it to the USGA and learn to live with it until the Rule is changed.
Don't like the Rule? Tell it to the USGA and learn to live with it until the Rule is changed.
pilot25
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I think the USGA did a disservice to golf by implementing this rule. It doesn't change pace of play as was their intention. It doesn't affect the PGA Tour as there are caddies all over the place taking care of the flag and all the pros are stupid slow on the greens anyway. The pin in or out isn't a factor. Almost all the pros from Wolff to Mickelson and all the age groups in between take it out but, again, their caddies are on it.
It should have been implemented to have to be in or have to be out. No choice. The day the original rules of golf started to change began the snowball into what we have now. It all started with marking balls on the greens and descended into all the nonsense we have now vs. play it as it lies as was the original game.
Et Tu Brute?
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It quite clearly is working in 80% of the games I play. Maybe one round out of five someone insists on pulling it, either always or within a certain distance of the hole. But the vast majority of the time we all just ignore the pin like it's not even there. Which is what the Rule was intended to do for those of us who are interested in getting on with things rather than stinking mindlessly to obsolete habits.
Give it another year or two and you'll find leaving it in to be an extreme minority behavior.
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Et Tu Brute?
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I don't give a crap about the PGA Tour or about how anyone not playing with me does or doesn't do something. It's the single most sensible Rule change in my memory. The fact that a few holdouts try to make a BFD out of it is doesn't make it a "disservice to golf". Some people are going to find ways to slow things down no changes might be made to the Rules.
rollin
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Lol but your not hearing me. When Im the lone "flag in" person I am simply cooperating with what the others want to do. I am being unselfish by doing that. You keep telling me Im being selfish when all along I am saying that if others want it out and im the only one then I will unselfishly not get my way at all and will fwiw even help with the pin and man it if need be etc....That is the exact opposite of selfish. That is 100 % going out of my way to be unselfish.
But flip the whole thing around and I do not see even close to the same unselfishness when it comes to those who want it out. They have simply been far less willing to sacrifice for the sake of the others even when they are the lone person of the group.
Your claiming that we should all be able to have it whatever way we want. Technically that's correct but lets face it ,...its not something that is so practical. And im always seeing those who want it in that are the ones who far more often are willing to sacrifice their choice vs those who want it out. That is far less cooperation on their part to the given 4somes or groups of players. Basically they are not willing to budge or sacrifice their choice the way the others are willing to do. Your suggesting no one should ne forced via any majority rules scenario. I say the minority should give way to the majority (in this flag situation). Don't bring tees into this as that is not the same thing and there is far more greater reasons to play appropriate tees. This whole flag business honestly is so minimal towards score no matter which way anyone tries to slice it.
And you keep referring to pace. Its not (as ive said) so much a slow pace problem thing per say (its not solving any real pace issue) but it is a smoother flow to the groups play on the greens which in turn does assist the pace in its own small way.
Again, Im the only one in a group who wants to leave it in I will go with it for the sake of the group. You somehow look at that as me being selfish. I say Im being unselfish. And I ask why its is that most those who want it out are not willing to make that same sacrifice that many more of those who want it in are willing to make?
If playing just me and you,....you will insist on it being out and you know what? (like so many who want it in such as myself) I will give way to your insistence. I really wont even have a choice because your pulling it regardless. Hence my point to begin with. But I will take it a step further and even assist you in doing so taking away from my preferred method of just tending to my ball and upcoming shot. That is the exact opposite of selfish. You would actually be the selfish one with this. Your going to have it your way whether its 1 to1 or 1-2 or even 1-3. And that's what I been experiencing most and why I brought it up.
Et Tu Brute?
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It probably does help pace but the couple, three or four minutes per round it saves is a drop in the slow play bucket.
It is simply NOT having to engage in a silly interruption to pull out the flag. Which should never have been part of the Rules in the first place. It's less trouble, less effort, less break in the flow and yes less time wasted.
rollin
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Or better yet just make it 100% the other way
I think this would happen before they go back to making us pull it on the green.Or better yet just make it 100% the other way
It's sped up play considerably with the guys I play league with. I personally went from pulling it on anything less than ten feet to just leaving it in all the time.
It's probably psychosomatic, but I seem to be making more 5-8 foot putts with it in.
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The USGA always reserves the right to change their minds, lol. They banned anchored putting after allowing it for 50 years. I won’t be at all surprised if the flagstick rule goes back to the way it’s always been in the next couple years.
It has for me. The vast majority of people I play with leave it in and it has been faster. We're not taking about shaving 30 minutes off the round, but it's faster.
Et Tu Brute?
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There's no way for it to be otherwise. When everyone is not doing something, that takes less time than everyone doing something. Even if "something" only take a few seconds then not doing it is a few seconds less.
The fourball I played in Sunday not only didn't pull the flagstick, all four of us happened to be guys who like continuous putting rather than re-marking our ball and waiting our turn. Same thing. It isn't like it shave half an hour off the round but it sure keeps things moving that few seconds on every green. Which is nice.
rollin
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that imo would be substantial and I feel it should be an amateur rule. Once begin putting , continue till holed out and no picking up allowed (except extenuating circumstance). Regardless of lines etc...get over yourselves and just all finish out. That would ave a lot of noticeable minutes per round imo. Combine that with leaving the pin in and it adds up to something significant enough to make some difference.
Et Tu Brute?
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In my ideal Rules change we'd have the trifecta of 1) pin can not be pulled, 2) ball can not be marked once you start putting and 3) no alignment line fiddling allowed. Honest to goodness there are some groups out there (usually playing ahead of me on the course!) where those changes in putting behavior would turn a 4:00 hour round in 3:40.
rollin
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or better yet, a 420 round into 4.
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Saw the pin keep a putt out yesterday on the 18th hole. Pretty sure it would have went in if there was no stick. I'm used to leaving it in, I'll usually just do whatever everyone else wants but I still prefer it out.
MrDC
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I think laziness is the primary motivation to leave it in at this point, but there's nothing wrong with that.
Et Tu Brute?
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That's also why I prefer not to bend over and mark my ball unless another player asks me to.
I've tried to train my dog to put the ball on the tee for me but so far no luck. Stupid mutt.
rollin
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