What's Happening? Flagstick In or Out?

[ArmyGolf]

because you have to make that one, right?
The 11 footer not so much.

I see what you're digging at here and you're not wrong.
I take the pin out on any putt where I can see the hole at address. Even on a straight 2 footer with the pin in my brain will aim for an open side of the hole for no reason.

 

[tahoebum]

This idea that leaving the flag in saves more than 5 seconds per hole is something that I'm not experiencing. If you're playing ready golf or have any golf etiquette at all, the one closest to the hole is pulling the flag while someone else in the group is reading the green or going through their pre-shot putting routine. Another golfer that has putted out is holding the flagstick ready to put it in as soon as the last putt drops. It only takes him or her 5 seconds or less to walk to the hole and insert the flagstick.

I've played over a hundred nine-hole rounds with my daughter when she was a beginner that averaged a double bogey on each hole, and we never had any trouble finishing in 75 minutes. I have a regular walking threesome on Wednesday morning. Me, a 65-year-old buddy, and another 68-year-old buddy who's had multiple heart surgeries and unless we are waiting we always finish in 3:15 or less from the 6400-yard tees. Yes, we pull the flagstick on all 18 holes.

A significant factor in slow play is people not being ready when it's their turn and spending way too much time with their preshot routine, whether on the green or not.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Where it really helps is when you're with a group that doesn't have "pre-shot routines" before putting. It's rare but a few times a year I'll happen to get a blind draw with two or three other guys who are like me. No practice strokes, no alignment lines, continuous putting, no marking unless someone asks you to, no 360-degree reads and in the last few months, no pulling the flagstick.

Wish I could play that way every day but I'll settle for leaving the 'stick in even when I don't get the rest of the package. As we've been saying, nobody thinks the flagstick in is going to save 20 minutes a round but even if saves 5-10 seconds per hole that's 5-10 seconds standing around when we could be playing golf. The way the game has been played these last few years, it's like nothing EVER gets taken away. Just one little time-waster after another added to the game year after year after year. Don't begrudge me cheering the first time in my memory we were at least given the option of saving a couple minutes.

 

[tahoebum]

Where it really helps is when you're with a group that doesn't have "pre-shot routines" before putting. It's rare but a few times a year I'll happen to get a blind draw with two or three other guys who are like me. No practice strokes, no alignment lines, continuous putting, no marking unless someone asks you to, no 360-degree reads and in the last few months, no pulling the flagstick.

Wish I could play that way every day but I'll settle for leaving the 'stick in even when I don't get the rest of the package. As we've been saying, nobody thinks the flagstick in is going to save 20 minutes around but even if saves 5-10 seconds per hole that's 5-10 seconds standing around when we could be playing golf. The way the game has been played these last few years, it's like nothing EVER gets taken away. Just one little time-waster after another added to the game year after year after year. Don't begrudge me cheering the first time in my memory we were at least given the option of saving a couple of minutes.

How long does your average round walking 18 holes take? Mine is right around 3:30 to 3:40 playing with three other bogey golfers. The way I see it if you can't finish in that amount of time you have other slow golfing habits that need to be improved upon.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

If there's three of us and the course is open ahead (rare this time of year) a little over three hours, maybe 3:10 or 3:15. Four balls would almost never be fast, more like 3:30 at best. That's in our usual dogfight group at weekends.

When I play solo I try to walk slow and keep it to about 3:00 just so I don't get in the habit of playing faster. It's funny how if I go out there in the evenings and play a few rounds bustling around in 2-1/2 hours, that first 4-hour round on a crowded weekend feels like it takes forever!

In the past, when I played with a much slower group at another club, I actually "practiced up" during solo rounds throttling myself back to about 1:50 per nine holes. I knew we were going to be out there four hours every time I played with the group and I was tired of being fidgety and impatient every weekend. It's amazing how tiring golf seems when you're out of your normal rhythm.

P.S. I said "course is open ahead" because in reality, during April-August we are always, always waiting on every single shot. There is an extremely slow group who has the block of tee times ahead of ours this time of year and they never finish in less than 4:15. I'm always glad when college football season arrives and that group bugs off on Saturday and quits clogging up the course.

 

[rollin]

fwiw to those implying laziness has something to do with it. Id say there is some correctness in that. However its not so much a laziness thing as it is much more a feeling that they/we see no reason to deal with the pin. Many us just simply feel its not necessary to do something (that doesn't have to be done) which at best has negligible affect on the game we are playing. We feel its an unnecessary nuisance with no valid reasoning for it except only that it use to be the rule.

So conversely....one can simply imply (in their opinion) , why not eliminate something that they always felt was an unnecessary disruption. You can call that laziness or you can call it smart.

 

[pilot25]

fwiw to those implying laziness has something to do with it. Id say there is some correctness in that. However its not so much a laziness thing as it is much more a feeling that they/we see no reason to deal with the pin. Many us just simply feel its not necessary to do something (that doesn't have to be done) which at best has negligible affect on the game we are playing. We feel its an unnecessary nuisance with no valid reasoning for it except only that it use to be the rule.

So conversely....one can simply imply (in their opinion) , why not eliminate something that they always felt was an unnecessary disruption. You can call that laziness or you can call it smart.

Except for the fact some people find it a complete distraction that takes away from the enjoyment of the game. YOU see no reason to deal with the pin and YOU feel there is not valid reason.

Again, empathy for others.

 

[rollin]

How long does your average round walking 18 holes take? Mine is right around 3:30 to 3:40 playing with three other bogey golfers. The way I see it if you can't finish in that amount of time you have other slow golfing habits that need to be improved upon.

Imo a 4some playing 330 to 340 is kind of quick. I have done it plenty times and it feels like my golf is over too quickly. Certainly for those who are not slow and those who are quick the pin pulling is not a problem. But whatever time one plays in )fast or slow), the pin pulling is a flow disruption. We are so very use to doing it that it doesn't register because it feels so normal. But as I keep suggesting.....if the rule had always been that pins were to never be removed and is all we knew for all our golfing lives, and only now did they create a new rule that it must be pulled, most all of us would feel "what kind of ridiculous rule is this?'. We would most all be feeling like its an unnecessary bothersome and disruptive thing that serves no real purpose. Regardless of what time frames we play are rounds in.


But unfortunately there are places where rounds do take very long and much too long and the pin thing does assist to eliminate "some" of that time. I honestly do not think we can guestimate just how much exactly it eliminates. But whatever time it is, never having to deal with it does keep the group moving more smoothly because they now never have to do something that they use to have to do all the time. Pin removing and manning, and laying down etc...is a disrupting element that is on top of and added to our playing of the game. Has always been part of it but still is what it is. Your group/s play golf in 340 which is great but that doesn't dismiss the fact that dealing with pins is till an added task that falls outside of you guys actually playing the game.

 

[rollin]

Except for the fact some people find it a complete distraction that takes away from the enjoyment of the game. YOU see no reason to deal with the pin and YOU feel there is not valid reason.

Again, empathy for others.

fwiw if you read my posts , I did say "opinion" and the word "i'd" and use the word "feel" .
That all means from myself and possibly some others of the flag in camp.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Imo a 4some playing 330 to 340 is kind of quick. I have done it plenty times and it feels like my golf is over too quickly.

I'd be interested in knowing about what time period you came to the game.

I've only been playing since the mid-90's but that's long enough to see the general expectations of pace evolve considerably. When I first joined my current club, we'd play in foursome at a pace of 3-1/2 hours absolute max unless the course were totally jammed. But with threesomes it felt really slow to take more than 3 hours. In fact, if we had 15 guys we'd play as 5 three-balls instead of 3 four-balls and a three-ball because for whatever reason four in a group always play slower.

Nowadays most of us have made our peace with three hours seeming like a pipe dream even in a three-ball. And four hours is a reality more often than not in prime season. I think relative newcomers to the game (those who started playing in the last 10-15 years) seem to treat a 4-hour round about like I used to think of a 3-hour round. It's just "normal speed".

 

[Golf Ghost]

I've been pretty big on trying to leave it in or at least just doing what the rest of the group decides to do.

Played a random 8 holes Saturday evening with the FIL. I found myself taking it out on anything inside 15 feet. I don't know why, but I liked it. I think I've found middle ground on liking it in for long putts, but out for short. I'm still ok with keeping it in 100% if everyone else is, but I think I've concluded my preference.

 

[golfinnut]

This idea that leaving the flag in saves more than 5 seconds per hole is something that I'm not experiencing. If you're playing ready golf or have any golf etiquette at all, the one closest to the hole is pulling the flag while someone else in the group is reading the green or going through their pre-shot putting routine. Another golfer that has putted out is holding the flagstick ready to put it in as soon as the last putt drops. It only takes him or her 5 seconds or less to walk to the hole and insert the flagstick.

I've played over a hundred nine-hole rounds with my daughter when she was a beginner that averaged a double bogey on each hole, and we never had any trouble finishing in 75 minutes. I have a regular walking threesome on Wednesday morning. Me, a 65-year-old buddy, and another 68-year-old buddy who's had multiple heart surgeries and unless we are waiting we always finish in 3:15 or less from the 6400-yard tees. Yes, we pull the flagstick on all 18 holes.

A significant factor in slow play is people not being ready when it's their turn and spending way too much time with their preshot routine, whether on the green or not.

Very true

I would add that the 1st person to hole out should be the one holding the flag, ready to put it in once the last person has holed out

 

[Hamfist]

I'm finding I prefer it out.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Very true

I would add that the 1st person to hole out should be the one holding the flag, ready to put it in once the last person has holed out

Assuming he'd rather stand around holding a flagstick rather than moving on to his golf bag and getting ready to head to the next tee.

 

[golfinnut]

Assuming he'd rather stand around holding a flagstick rather than moving on to his golf bag and getting ready to head to the next tee.

Why does he have to head to the next tee by himself? Not like he's going to tee off before anyone else. So he's just going to stand on the tee by himself instead of just waiting until everyone was done. And then walking to the tee with everyone. Instead he can put the flag in and still walk to the next tee

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[Et Tu Brute?]

Why does he have to head to the next tee by himself? Not like he's going to tee off before anyone else. So he's just going to stand on the tee by himself instead of just waiting until everyone was done. And then walking to the tee with everyone. Instead he can put the flag in and still walk to the next tee

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When nobody is fiddling around with the flagstick, by the time the last guy putts out all three of the others can be headed off to the next hole.

I know you can't believe it but not everyone wants golf to be a formal dance with each person taking turns doing their little rituals while the others stand around and watch. Some of us just want to put the ball in the hole and keep moving. Pretty mind-blowing, eh?

 

[rollin]

I'd be interested in knowing about what time period you came to the game.

I've only been playing since the mid-90's but that's long enough to see the general expectations of pace evolve considerably. When I first joined my current club, we'd play in foursome at a pace of 3-1/2 hours absolute max unless the course were totally jammed. But with threesomes it felt really slow to take more than 3 hours. In fact, if we had 15 guys we'd play as 5 three-balls instead of 3 four-balls and a three-ball because for whatever reason four in a group always play slower.

Nowadays most of us have made our peace with three hours seeming like a pipe dream even in a three-ball. And four hours is a reality more often than not in prime season. I think relative newcomers to the game (those who started playing in the last 10-15 years) seem to treat a 4-hour round about like I used to think of a 3-hour round. It's just "normal speed".

I have on several occasions mentioned in other threads (and perhaps maybe this one too at one point) That I came from a place (where I used to live) in which rounds took 5 hrs as almost a minimum. often 5.5 and wasn't uncommon to go even more than that. 7minute tee times was a 3 group pile up simply on the first tee before we began. So with that ive always referenced that is in part why I feel anything 420 or less is no real issue.

That said its been many years since then but I still feel that 4hrs is not at all slow and I do feel that 330 is quick. And honestly so do a lot of people. I have no issue playing in 330 if that's what the pace is running but it is quick. Especially when not playing well.

 

[jim54]

It must be awful having that much stress to hurry up and get done that 15 minutes could ruin your day.

flag in, flag out why not just enjoy the golf not have the challenge to finish ASAP.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

It must be awful having that much stress to hurry up and get done that 15 minutes could ruin your day.

flag in, flag out why not just enjoy the golf not have the challenge to finish ASAP.

I'm not in a hurry to finish. I'm just ALWAYS ready to play golf. Not play honors, not play flagstick, not play practice swing or alignment lines. Hit the ball, walk to the ball, hit the ball again. I just love it. Any time I'm standing around doing something else I would rather be playing golf.

There's a lot of stuff that people do on a golf course. Some people consider a dozen other things to be part of "golf". For my part, I'm all about hitting the ball and walking, the rest is just filler.

 

[golfinnut]

I'm not in a hurry to finish. I'm just ALWAYS ready to play golf. Not play honors, not play flagstick, not play practice swing or alignment lines. Hit the ball, walk to the ball, hit the ball again. I just love it. Any time I'm standing around doing something else I would rather be playing golf.

There's a lot of stuff that people do on a golf course. Some people consider a dozen other things to be part of "golf". For my part, I'm all about hitting the ball and walking, the rest is just filler.

Not play honors? So you hit before the guy that just made Birdie? Now that's wrong

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[rollin]

fwiw there are a lot of people on this forum an in this thread and other past threads (even before the rule change) who say when they played alone they would leave the flag in. A ton of people (even from the flag out camp) have stated that in the past.

I ask.....why?
I mean right there in itself is a very telling of just how much a disruption dealing with the pin sort of always was. No one around to assist and so you/we leave it be. But you/we have no issue having others tend to it for us when not alone. Just sayin
Dealing with the pins when we think about it has always been a disruption regardless the fact that we simply became so very use to doing it.

The only time I actually ever did get a tad annoyed was when people would want it our for chipping and I was still also off the green. I always liked it in for that yet some people would have it pulled for their chip and id be like "well, I don't want it out" . In the end I would usually not say anything and just leave it out but it did use to annoy me. I hope there are not many folks still doing that at least.

 

[rollin]

Not play honors? So you hit before the guy that just made Birdie? Now that's wrong

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Oh I think that's overrated. So what I made a bird....if your ready go right ahead. Not insulted at all I don't care if I eagled and that's a real honest truth. I mean I will respect your wishes if you want the bird honors and cant get over yourself but I find that whole thing kind of ridiculous. Just not imo any big deal at all. Imo anyone who is ready should just go regardless of score. I could truly care less what I scored as for the already played hole. It just doesn't mean anything once the hole is over. I'll cooperate if one feels insulted or ripped of his self rewarded knighthood for the bird. I congratulated you on the bird and imo that should be enough, its over in the past and now we move on. But that's just me.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Occasionally I'll make a birdie and when we get to the next tee someone is ahead of me. If they hesitate and look at me to see if I want them to wait I usually say, "No, I've made birdies before".

 

[golfinnut]

Oh I think that's overrated. So what I made a bird....if your ready go right ahead. Not insulted at all I don't care if I eagled and that's a real honest truth. I mean I will respect your wishes if you want the bird honors and cant get over yourself but I find that whole thing kind of ridiculous. Just not imo any big deal at all. Imo anyone who is ready should just go regardless of score. I could truly care less what I scored as for the already played hole. It just doesn't mean anything once the hole is over. I'll cooperate if one feels insulted or ripped of his self rewarded knighthood for the bird. I congratulated you on the bird and imo that should be enough, its over in the past and now we move on. But that's just me.

I guess I'm just a traditionalist then.

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[pilot25]

I guess I'm just a traditionalist then.

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There will be none of that allowed around here. You must play as fast as possible so everyone can get back inside to watch netflix and surf the web. Seconds count and if the round is over 3 hours, you will be publicly humiliated. So don't even think about sharing the enjoyment of your friend making a good putt for an under par. Golf isn't about that.