What's Happening? Flagstick In or Out?

Oh I think that's overrated. So what I made a bird....if your ready go right ahead. Not insulted at all I don't care if I eagled and that's a real honest truth. I mean I will respect your wishes if you want the bird honors and cant get over yourself but I find that whole thing kind of ridiculous. Just not imo any big deal at all. Imo anyone who is ready should just go regardless of score. I could truly care less what I scored as for the already played hole. It just doesn't mean anything once the hole is over. I'll cooperate if one feels insulted or ripped of his self rewarded knighthood for the bird. I congratulated you on the bird :) and imo that should be enough, its over in the past and now we move on. But that's just me.

I guess I'm just a traditionalist then.

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There will be none of that allowed around here. You must play as fast as possible so everyone can get back inside to watch netflix and surf the web. Seconds count and if the round is over 3 hours, you will be publicly humiliated. So don't even think about sharing the enjoyment of your friend making a good putt for an under par. Golf isn't about that.

Who is really saying that?
Certainly not me. I just find the whole honors for a score on the prior hole is not at all any big deal. I also did fwiw say that if its my bird I dont care who goes first on the next tee. I wouldnt feel disrespected nor do i feel it needs to be recognized via any honor on the next tee. I just think so what I got a bird on the last hole. im happy to have one of course but getting honors on the next tee for doing so? nah, why would or should that bother me? I simply really wouldnt care is all. has nothing at all to do with rushing the golf which by the way is something i dont even like to do.

fwiw I always walk and if with one or others who has a cart I am usually the first one on the next tee because i have no cart top go and get and pull around. If im with all walkers and I had a bird i just tell whomever is there first to go ahead and hit. If im there first ill hit. If im there first and not the bird scorer I will nod the tee to that bird because i know how some peopl;e feel about it. And sometimes they say tell me go ahead if Im rweady. But sometimes thye dont as some people get insulted. I just think it ridiculous to be insulted. Its something that simply doesn't do anything for me is all.

there have been times i forgot about another bird within a 4some or simply didnt realize someone had one. i dont always pay attention to others scores and just give a comngratz to any goof shot or putt. I have gone and teed over birds unintentionally. i (if i know afterwards0 usually apologize for it. But its an honest mistake. But thats the thing.....ity shouldnt imo even be a mistake cause i find that tradition holds little to no real value. Play thouisands of rounds have made countless birds even at my mid/high cap. and so have many others. Imo great but no big deal. nothing to do with rushing. and nothing im to do with the next hole. Just ready golf and what i think is an overrated necessary antic. But again i will respect your wishes of the self rewarded knighthood if you find it disrespectful not to. I have no problem doing that. It doesnt make me angry or anything. I just find its not something i care much about is all.
 
There are so many strawmen built in this thread that we propably should make a business of it and profit like h3ll :) Everyone seems build their own bunkers (pun intended) and fortifications and will hold their stance (pun again intended). The rules allow the flagstick to be left in and for goodness sake you're not penalized for hitting it (what a dumb rule that was). I personally don't care if the stick is in or out, I just wish that we (meaning the flight) can agree how to play (within the boundaries given by the rules) before first tee to ensure good flow of play. This rule change shouldn't be harder than that.
 
With my group, anyone who jumps in front of a birdie buys the next round whether it’s at the turn or after the round. I played with one new player on my first 18 yesterday and two new players on the second round. All wanted the flag out on putts inside of 20 feet which is what I’ve seen from all but one golfer this year.
 
There are so many strawmen built in this thread that we propably should make a business of it and profit like h3ll :) Everyone seems build their own bunkers (pun intended) and fortifications and will hold their stance (pun again intended). The rules allow the flagstick to be left in and for goodness sake you're not penalized for hitting it (what a dumb rule that was). I personally don't care if the stick is in or out, I just wish that we (meaning the flight) can agree how to play (within the boundaries given by the rules) before first tee to ensure good flow of play. This rule change shouldn't be harder than that.

well, I dont really think people are out there fighting over it but i can see that being a possibility. Im sure somewhere someone has fought about it (in an argument sense at least).

here is what i think is going to eventually happen. I think as leaving the pin in grows more and more (which its already begun to do), the "pin out" camp is going to dwindle. In places where slow play is a big problem a new majority of "pin in" people are going to begin to get on the minority camp of "pin outters". Much the same way now that people frown upon tee choice of others and poor play of others , people will begin to frown on the "pin out" camp. Reason being is because they look for anything to blame slow play on. whether its right.wrong. or indifferent the problematic slow round courses are going to push it heavily. may even make local rule that the pin has to stay put with maybe the exception of the windiest days where as it will be posted.

And i think because of this they are eventually going to just make it a "pin in" only rule with no choice.

Imo they should just rule it 100% always in.....and get pins with a thin bottom and only get thicker a couple inches (more than a ball width) above the ground. This way no one has to worry about the "maybe' once per round on average it may hurt them or help them.
 
With my group, anyone who jumps in front of a birdie buys the next round whether it’s at the turn or after the round. I played with one new player on my first 18 yesterday and two new players on the second round. All wanted the flag out on putts inside of 20 feet which is what I’ve seen from all but one golfer this year.

how about if i dont jump it and still by a round :)

I think i should get honors just for my charm and good looks :alien:

Im seeing about 60% leaving it (maybe even more). My last about 5 rounds only in 2 of them was there one person wanting it out. And both those people of course as usual even though the minority got their way as such is the case with most the pin out camp. But i suppose it could just be coincidence that i just so happen to be around more pin in people lately than pin out people in my groups and the near by groups.
 
well, I dont really think people are out there fighting over it but i can see that being a possibility. Im sure somewhere someone has fought about it (in an argument sense at least).

here is what i think is going to eventually happen. I think as leaving the pin in grows more and more (which its already begun to do), the "pin out" camp is going to dwindle. In places where slow play is a big problem a new majority of "pin in" people are going to begin to get on the minority camp of "pin outters". Much the same way now that people frown upon tee choice of others and poor play of others , people will begin to frown on the "pin out" camp. Reason being is because they look for anything to blame slow play on. whether its right.wrong. or indifferent the problematic slow round courses are going to push it heavily. may even make local rule that the pin has to stay put with maybe the exception of the windiest days where as it will be posted.

And i think because of this they are eventually going to just make it a "pin in" only rule with no choice.

Imo they should just rule it 100% always in.....and get pins with a thin bottom and only get thicker a couple inches (more than a ball width) above the ground. This way no one has to worry about the "maybe' once per round on average it may hurt them or help them.

Im not playing courses that have slow play but I’m not seeing that at all here. I’ve played with about 30 different golfers this year and only one wanted the flagstick in for all putts. Yesterday I saw another long putt that would have gone in bounce off the flagstick and my buddy was pissed as it would have been his first eagle of the year. If anything I’m seeing it taken out from longer distances than I was back in April and May.
 
To be clear about my "fortifications" I do not think pulling the flag or not materially impacts pace of play. Leaving it in is faster but only trivially so in most cases.

I just enjoy no longer having to do that one small thing that's an utterly ridiculous distraction and (small) waste of time. I wish the way people play could be simplified and streamlined in many other ways but I'll take this one little improvement in the Rules of Golf, thank you very much.
 
Im not playing courses that have slow play but I’m not seeing that at all here. I’ve played with about 30 different golfers this year and only one wanted the flagstick in for all putts. Yesterday I saw another long putt that would have gone in bounce off the flagstick and my buddy was pissed as it would have been his first eagle of the year. If anything I’m seeing it taken out from longer distances than I was back in April and May.
you play so much more golf than me and yet only played with about 30 different people. I suppose due to you having a somewhat standard group or three of 4some/s you regularly play with.
myself on the other hand am playing 90% as a single and on a municipal. As a result I cant even count the amount of different people but in my far less amount of rounds have played with probably a hundred different people. Plus im noticing the other groups ahead and or behind. And im simply seeing a whole lot of pins staying in now. I see the orther way too but its definitely (slowly) becoming more and more of them staying in. But of course this just could be on my courses and at the times i play.
 
you play so much more golf than me and yet only played with about 30 different people. I suppose due to you having a somewhat standard group or three of 4some/s you regularly play with.
myself on the other hand am playing 90% as a single and on a municipal. As a result I cant even count the amount of different people but in my far less amount of rounds have played with probably a hundred different people. Plus im noticing the other groups ahead and or behind. And im simply seeing a whole lot of pins staying in now. I see the orther way too but its definitely (slowly) becoming more and more of them staying in. But of course this just could be on my courses and at the times i play.

I'm like friend Tahoe in usually playing with more or less the same group of 25-30 guys week in and week out. I think we're down to three or four pull-it-out guys now and one of them is moving out of town soon.

But like yourself, when I do play with random other people I almost never see anyone pull it out. Whether at a resort course down at the beach, playing the local muni or whatever, it is nigh universal to leave it in. Although often someone in the group (of random pair-ups) generally asks on the first green if everyone's OK with it in.
 
What's Happening? Flagstick In or Out?

Imo they should just rule it 100% always in.

There is zero chance of this becoming the rule for 100% of players. Many players prefer to visually putt into an empty cup (myself included, and I’m sure a bunch of tour players as well), which will keep them from making the pin-in rule a requirement for all players.



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There is zero chance of this becoming the rule for 100% of players. Many players prefer to visually put into an empty cup (myself included, and I’m sure a bunch of tour players as well), which will keep them from making the pin-in rule a requirement for all players.

I agree that Rules of Golf is never going to require that. Or not in my lifetime anyway.

But I do predict that a few years from now, pulling it out will be viewed a quirky thing that might get you the stink eye in certain groups.

Kind of like marking your ball with a ginormous "manhole cover" poker chip. No Rule against it, lots of people do it. But I've played with groups where the peer pressure is to knock it off and just use a coin or normal ball marker.
 
I agree that Rules of Golf is never going to require that. Or not in my lifetime anyway.

But I do predict that a few years from now, pulling it out will be viewed a quirky thing that might get you the stink eye in certain groups.

Kind of like marking your ball with a ginormous "manhole cover" poker chip. No Rule against it, lots of people do it. But I've played with groups where the peer pressure is to knock it off and just use a coin or normal ball marker.

haha, i have a double ball marker. Its a US flag poker chip size ball marker but it has a magnetic removable small center piece marker in the center. I use the whole thing when afar or when in no ones way but pop out the small cneter when close. But to be honest doesnt get much use at all because as long as im in noones line my ball stays on the green a lot. i give on initial check for mud or dirt and quickly back down never to be picked up again unless in anothers way.
 
There is zero chance of this becoming the rule for 100% of players. Many players prefer to visually putt into an empty cup (myself included, and I’m sure a bunch of tour players as well), which will keep them from making the pin-in rule a requirement for all players.



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it doesnt have to be a tour rule but just ours. But you know what? even tour players will get use to it quickly. All it takes is to have no choice and most everyone will get use to it and find ways to overcome the mental part. Just do it every round all the time and by default we most all would eventually get very use to it. You wouldnt have a choice so youd have to get use to it.
 
Let's just design a flag that is mounted in concrete so it doesn't move. (greens keepers won't like that idea though) Or better yet let's make it electrified, so if you grab it to take it out, it gives you a shock. Problem Solved! Pin stays in no matter what
 
it doesnt have to be a tour rule but just ours. But you know what? even tour players will get use to it quickly. All it takes is to have no choice and most everyone will get use to it and find ways to overcome the mental part. Just do it every round all the time and by default we most all would eventually get very use to it. You wouldnt have a choice so youd have to get use to it.

You can justify it however you want, there is still zero chance the RoG will make that change.


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In or out, the only minor nuisance I've come across is occassionally during Wednesday skins matches.

Most don't care, in or out, but a few are fairly adamant one way or the other. When players with an opposing preference are in a group together, there's a little flag dance that ensues.

I'll generally help out the first few holes but after that it starts to feel as if I'm caddying while playing. Eventually they work it out amongst themselves, shielding us "don't care guys" from the dance.

Most often, when feasible, in or out guy guy putts first (usually putts out, too) so the stick is pulled just that one time as we others don't care. I don't recall any group that I've played with discussing this tact, just seems to happen naturally as the round continues.
 
For those who want it in at all times, what do you do if the flagstick is leaning toward you on your putt either because it is windy or because the hole is cut on a slope? You leave it in? If so I guess what you shoot isn't important to you like it is to so many other golfers.I made a point of checking every flagstick the last couple of days and every one of them has some "play" such that the flagstick is not vertical but leaning in one direction or another. Maybe you guys always play on flat greens and have no wind but the course I belong to has slope and contour on every green with very few if any "flat spots".
 
For those who want it in at all times, what do you do if the flagstick is leaning toward you on your putt either because it is windy or because the hole is cut on a slope? You leave it in? If so I guess what you shoot isn't important to you like it is to so many other golfers.I made a point of checking every flagstick the last couple of days and every one of them has some "play" such that the flagstick is not vertical but leaning in one direction or another. Maybe you guys always play on flat greens and have no wind but the course I belong to has slope and contour on every green with very few if any "flat spots".

For my part, I don't "want it in at all times". I don't care whether it is in or out. I simply don't want to mess with it either way so I leave it in if it's in. If someone pulls it out then that's OK but I'd rather they put it back when they're done.

I've been leaving flags in when playing solo for as long as I've played golf. And for non-solo rounds for, what, about 7-1/2 months now. Normally if the flag is leaning it's because someone didn't place it all the way down in the cup. I just give it a rattle to seat it better. Of course that, too, is not a problem if everyone is leaving it in all day long!

As for wind making it lean toward me, I only play in that kind of wind a couple times a year. If it's leaning toward me, obviously, I pull it out. Very infrequent occurrence though.
 
Had two flagstick occurrences today

First one, hit it a little hard, not too bad but glanced off the flagstick and out of the cup two putt bogey (from 10 feet)

2nd instance, 30 footer for birdie hit a very firm putt, got the line spot on and hit the flagstick square and straight in the cup - if I missed it would have been another 20-30 feet away

depending on flagstick base, I usually leave it in - however in a serious match I will pull it inside of 10 feet.
 
For those who want it in at all times, what do you do if the flagstick is leaning toward you on your putt either because it is windy or because the hole is cut on a slope? You leave it in? If so I guess what you shoot isn't important to you like it is to so many other golfers.I made a point of checking every flagstick the last couple of days and every one of them has some "play" such that the flagstick is not vertical but leaning in one direction or another. Maybe you guys always play on flat greens and have no wind but the course I belong to has slope and contour on every green with very few if any "flat spots".
The onlt time "in the Pelz study" that the bent or leaning pin was an issue would be if it leaned so far as to not allow space for the ball to enter and even that would only be on a dead on strike. Other than that a bent/leaning pin actually increased his odds of sinking it (in his study). Because it deflected the ball down. But fwiw I did say the local course would post (based on winds for the day) that today is a pin out choice day (if you want).

But just make pins with a very narrow and stiffer bottom portion till it reaches a height a few inches above the ground level. This way there will be almost zero chance the pin ever affects any putts at all. Would all be even more minimal than it already is now and also wouldn't matter if windy. There are certainly materials where as the bottom of the pin can be quite thin and sturdy yet still be more than strong enough for any winds that are bending the upper 3/4 of the pin.
 
For those who want it in at all times, what do you do if the flagstick is leaning toward you on your putt either because it is windy or because the hole is cut on a slope? You leave it in? If so I guess what you shoot isn't important to you like it is to so many other golfers.I made a point of checking every flagstick the last couple of days and every one of them has some "play" such that the flagstick is not vertical but leaning in one direction or another. Maybe you guys always play on flat greens and have no wind but the course I belong to has slope and contour on every green with very few if any "flat spots".

if it is clearly leaning towards me or to the sides I remove it every time. I do not believe I have removed one because of the wind though. Also throughout the season, I have yet to have an experience of the flagstick preventing a ball from going in the hole.
 
The onlt time "in the Pelz study" that the bent or leaning pin was an issue would be if it leaned so far as to not allow space for the ball to enter and even that would only be on a dead on strike. Other than that a bent/leaning pin actually increased his odds of sinking it (in his study). Because it deflected the ball down.

I don't know how long or how much golf you have played, but obviously you rely a great deal on the Pelz study. Me? I base my decision to pull the pin (on what I perceive as "makeable" putts) on over 60 years of playing golf (God only knows how many thousands of rounds that might add up to) and what I have witnessed on the course under actual playing conditions.
 
As for those who want it out...…..there is one thing I can get, and one thing I cant get.

I can understand one simply feeling more confident and comfy with it out. That being said I do think that is something that would work itself out in time provided you always did it and stayed with it. But at least I can see that reasoning (even though temporary) would be a concern.

But what I cant get is the idea that some have that it really does hurt them significantly enough to make any real change in cap or any measurable difference in average score on any consistent basis. I really believe that is overrated and being over thought of. No matter whether one believes it hurts more or helps more it still only so very minimal to begin with. But here is the extra kicker to that.....When we also consider (from either camp) that it also does the opposite sometimes too it then negates a good percentage of which ever way we believe. So that brings what is an already minimal affect down even much further. It really is negligible in the end.
 
I don't know how long or how much golf you have played, but obviously you rely a great deal on the Pelz study. Me? I base my decision to pull the pin (on what I perceive as "makeable" putts) on over 60 years of playing golf (God only knows how many thousands of rounds that might add up to) and what I have witnessed on the course under actual playing conditions.

I (as indicated in my above post) don't really think it makes any real measurable difference.
 
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