What's Happening? Flagstick In or Out?

[Phil75070]

I (as indicated in my above post) don't really think it makes any real measurable difference.

Agreed! Over the long run it has little measurable effect on handicap or average score but what you seem to ignore is that it can have a major impact on that day's result. That day, it is not a minute fraction of a stroke, it is a full stroke which can be the difference between winning a match, winning a tournament, achieving a personal goal such as shooting par, shooting a personal best or breaking 100, 90, 80, 70 for the first time.

 

[rollin]

Agreed! Over the long run it has little measurable effect on handicap or average score but what you seem to ignore is that it can have a major impact on that day's result. That day, it is not a minute fraction of a stroke, it is a full stroke which can be the difference between winning a match, winning a tournament, achieving a personal goal such as shooting par, shooting a personal best or breaking 100, 90, 80, 70 for the first time.

and the fact that there are times it can both help and hurt still leaves even what you mention as meaningless because no matter which camp your in there are still times it works the other way.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Agreed! Over the long run it has little measurable effect on handicap or average score but what you seem to ignore is that it can have a major impact on that day's result. That day, it is not a minute fraction of a stroke, it is a full stroke which can be the difference between winning a match, winning a tournament, achieving a personal goal such as shooting par, shooting a personal best or breaking 100, 90, 80, 70 for the first time.

You can name all sorts of things that might, conceivably, once in a great while save you a FULL stroke and win a match. You could walk up and read the break on the green before hitting a 60-yard wedge shot. You could have the flagstick tended in case a bunker shot might be coming in at a speed you think the stick would keep it out (right? if it can happen with a putt it can happen with any shot). You could ask someone to stand in the rough at about your driving distance just in case you might lose sight of a ball and not be able to find it.

Or you can just get on with it and let the good breaks and bad breaks average out like the rest of us.

 

[wubears71]

I wonder if we would be having this debate if it weren’t for Bryson?

I honestly expected that the flag would come out just like before and all it really did was make it okay for us that play alone to keep it in and it technically no longer be a penalty.


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[BuckNasty]

What's Happening? Flagstick In or Out?

I wonder if we would be having this debate if it weren’t for Bryson?

I honestly expected that the flag would come out just like before and all it really did was make it okay for us that play alone to keep it in and it technically no longer be a penalty.


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I’m not sure solo play had any impact on the rule since you’re technically are not allowed to post those rounds.


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[Et Tu Brute?]

I assumed everybody would start leaving it in except for Tour players and people who wanna be just like Tour players.

Seems I was pretty close to correct.

 

[tahoebum]

One of the best reasons to pull the flagstick is the potential damage to the hole pulling the ball out with it in. Today we had to fix five holes before we putted because of damage to the hole from some lazy or clumsy golfer in front of us who had pulled sections of grass and dirt on the top edge upward. In the past, I rarely have seen it, and now I see it nearly every round. It's the same type of golfer that doesn't fix ball marks or replace divots, and as we all know they are all too common. Now we've given them one more way to damage the golf course.

 

[wubears71]

One of the best reasons to pull the flagstick is the potential damage to the hole pulling the ball out with it in. Today we had to fix five holes before we putted because of damage to the hole from some lazy or clumsy golfer in front of us who had pulled sections of grass and dirt on the top edge upward. In the past, I rarely have seen it, and now I see it nearly every round. It's the same type of golfer that doesn't fix ball marks or replace divots, and as we all know they are all too common. Now we've given them one more way to damage the golf course.

This is becoming a big issue.


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[rollin]

One of the best reasons to pull the flagstick is the potential damage to the hole pulling the ball out with it in. Today we had to fix five holes before we putted because of damage to the hole from some lazy or clumsy golfer in front of us who had pulled sections of grass and dirt on the top edge upward. In the past, I rarely have seen it, and now I see it nearly every round. It's the same type of golfer that doesn't fix ball marks or replace divots, and as we all know they are all too common. Now we've given them one more way to damage the golf course.

that's one that I can agree with and I see sometimes too. But I would say as people become more accustomed to grabbing the ball that problem should become less and less of one.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

At least among the groups I play with there seems be a peer pressure thing not to try and gouge your ball out of the cup with your putter. A couple guys over the years have used those suction-cup things but everyone else mostly reaches down with their hand and does it properly. When someone does root around down there with the toe of a putter it tends to get the stink-eye from the rest of the group.

 

[tahoebum]

that's one that I can agree with and I see sometimes too. But I would say as people become more accustomed to grabbing the ball that problem should become less and less of one.

I'm mostly playing at private courses and it's a big issue and hasn't improved since the season started in April. I haven't had a round where I haven't had to fix the hole on at least two or three holes unless I've been the first tee time of the day. I used to go ten plus rounds without having to fix any holes. At the public courses I've played this year, the problem has been worse. I think a lot of older guys and guys with big hands have a tough time pulling the ball out with the flagstick in without doing some damage. Later in the day, this becomes a big problem after 30 foursome have already played the course.

 

[rollin]

I'm mostly playing at private courses and it's a big issue and hasn't improved since the season started in April. I haven't had a round where I haven't had to fix the hole on at least two or three holes unless I've been the first tee time of the day. I used to go ten plus rounds without having to fix any holes. At the public courses I've played this year, the problem has been worse. I think a lot of older guys and guys with big hands have a tough time pulling the ball out with the flagstick in without doing some damage. Later in the day, this becomes a big problem after 30 foursome have already played the course.

yea, I can see an issue with that.
That being said and mostly playing public courses I cant really say cup damage has been much worse. Even pulling pins causes damages and fwiw the ones caused by pins are from my experiences the worst ones. Nothing more dominating than one destroying the edge by carelessly or accidentally taking a chunk with the pin. And the whole trying to grab the ball with the putter is a bad one too. Suction cups are a good way to do it imo flag in or out. I don't have one but I just use 2 fingers. Either way people just need to be a tiny tad less careless is all it takes. But good luck with that. Actually kind of surprises me at a private club that your players wouldn't be.

 

[golfinnut]

I'm mostly playing at private courses and it's a big issue and hasn't improved since the season started in April. I haven't had a round where I haven't had to fix the hole on at least two or three holes unless I've been the first tee time of the day. I used to go ten plus rounds without having to fix any holes. At the public courses I've played this year, the problem has been worse. I think a lot of older guys and guys with big hands have a tough time pulling the ball out with the flagstick in without doing some damage. Later in the day, this becomes a big problem after 30 foursome have already played the course.

yea, I can see an issue with that.
That being said and mostly playing public courses I cant really say cup damage has been much worse. Even pulling pins causes damages and fwiw the ones caused by pins are from my experiences the worst ones. Nothing more dominating than one destroying the edge by carelessly or accidentally taking a chunk with the pin.

If people would just take the pin in & out carefully, there wouldn't be a problem. But everyone gets pissed off at their play or something & the first or second thing they take it out on is the flagstick ... yank it out hard, drill it into the cup & miss completely, taking a chunk of turf with it. I've seen it happen way too often. And in my younger days, I was one of these golfers. But after I started working on golf courses & seeing what it does to the greens & how long it takes to repair such damage, I refrained from doing it any longer.
Allow the flag to come out like usual. Or put the sticky suction cup on the end of every putter of players 50 years & older before each round at the clubhouse, free of charge. No bending required, no large fat hands having to get the ball out of the hole, etc.

Problem solved

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

If people would just take the pin in & out carefully, there wouldn't be a problem. But everyone gets pissed off at their play or something & the first or second thing they take it out on is the flagstick ... yank it out hard, drill it into the cup & miss completely, taking a chunk of turf with it. I've seen it happen way too often. And in my younger days, I was one of these golfers. But after I started working on golf courses & seeing what it does to the greens & how long it takes to repair such damage, I refrained from doing it any longer.
Allow the flag to come out like usual. Or put the sticky suction cup on the end of every putter of players 50 years & older before each round at the clubhouse, free of charge. No bending required, no large fat hands having to get the ball out of the hole, etc.

Problem solved

Yeah, that problem has been endemic to every course I've ever played. And all it takes is for each hothead to lose his rag like that once or twice a round and in no time all the cups are beat up. If you figure one out of every ten golfers is a hothead and each hothead does it twice a round and each time he does it has a 1-in-3 chance of taking a divot out of the cup...

 

[FreddieMac]

I leave it in unless a playing partner wants it out and then I putt with it out.


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[OldandStiff]

I mostly leave it in unless someone wants it out. Which, depending on the group, someone usually does. So most of my short puts seem to still be with it out unless I'm playing in my regular twosome. I definitely feel it helps me on longer putts though. I'm partially blind from an injury (took a wedge to the forehead right above my left eye when I was 10) and I can see the pin on that side a LOT easier than just the hole. Makes lining up putts much easier for me.

The hole damage thing is a real problem around here too. Not on my home course, but there are a couple others that have more older players and they get pretty bad. One doesn't rotate their pins as often and it's especially bad if you're there on the wrong day. I don't necessarily share rollin's optimism on it getting better over time though. We're pretty late in the season here and if anything the problem is getting worse.

 

[brianmk24]

I want it out 99% of the time if I can see the hole and now I feel like I'm the @$$hole if I'm the only one who wants it out during a round. This rule is good for solo or twosome play, but is making it difficult for some foursomes.

 

[OldandStiff]

I want it out 99% of the time if I can see the hole and now I feel like I'm the @$$hole if I'm the only one who wants it out during a round. This rule is good for solo or twosome play, but is making it difficult for some foursomes.

If someone I play with acts like it's an imposition to pull it for anyone I give them hell. I mean, how fast can someone who's been pulling it for their entire life until now really get that lazy?! Ugh. Roll your eyes about it and you're on pin duty the rest of the round as far as I'm concerned.

 

[leftshot]

At this point, I'm finding most groups all want to leave it in under pretty much all conditions. The exceptions are just that. Having said that, I too am noticing damage to the inside of the holes a consequence of retrieving balls with the pin still in the cup.

 

[rollin]

If someone I play with acts like it's an imposition to pull it for anyone I give them hell. I mean, how fast can someone who's been pulling it for their entire life until now really get that lazy?! Ugh. Roll your eyes about it and you're on pin duty the rest of the round as far as I'm concerned.

perhaps they always felt it was an unnecessary task to being with.

Well then I guess when your in the minority you'll be pulling your own pins.

Here yet again another example how so many more of those who want it pulled are far less willing to allow the other way vs those who would rather leave it in. In fact you've even self appointed yourself the pin pull Gestapo and are assigning punishments. Quite comical really.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

If someone in my group wants it out, I'm happy to leave it to them to do it. Unless I'm standing nearby and can pull it quicker than they can, thereby keeping things moving along.

As I've said previously, it's like the alignment line business. I don't like it, I wish people wouldn't do it but it's not up to me to tell them they can't do something that's allowed by the Rules of Golf. So I just ignore it. Same for pulling the pin. If that's what floats your boat, go for it. And I'll help out if it's convenient to do. But I wish you would just stop.

 

[rollin]

If someone in my group wants it out, I'm happy to leave it to them to do it. Unless I'm standing nearby and can pull it quicker than they can, thereby keeping things moving along.

As I've said previously, it's like the alignment line business. I don't like it, I wish people wouldn't do it but it's not up to me to tell them they can't do something that's allowed by the Rules of Golf. So I just ignore it. Same for pulling the pin. If that's what floats your boat, go for it. And I'll help out if it's convenient to do. But I wish you would just stop.

for whatever reason this made me laugh a little. But I agree

 

[teed-off]

The majority of the people that I have played with (including myself) leave the pin in even for birdie putts. It seems to move the game along much faster

 

[PhillyV]

One of the best reasons to pull the flagstick is the potential damage to the hole pulling the ball out with it in. Today we had to fix five holes before we putted because of damage to the hole from some lazy or clumsy golfer in front of us who had pulled sections of grass and dirt on the top edge upward. In the past, I rarely have seen it, and now I see it nearly every round. It's the same type of golfer that doesn't fix ball marks or replace divots, and as we all know they are all too common. Now we've given them one more way to damage the golf course.

I saw this allllll day during my last round. Its slowing things down now on the green and honestly Ive yet to get comfortable putting with the pin in. Its as bad as trying to putt knowing theres another golf ball in the hole

 

[rollin]

I saw this allllll day during my last round. Its slowing things down now on the green and honestly Ive yet to get comfortable putting with the pin in. Its as bad as trying to putt knowing theres another golf ball in the hole

I can get that you may prefer to putt with it out. But to suggest leaving it in has slowed the game due to cup damage has to be a far over exaggeration or you just happened upon one exception of a round. . You would be one of very few (if any) to state the game is slower via not having to ever deal with the pin at all. I mean Alllll day for better part of 18 holes you had to repair the cup? How many is Alllll day? 18? 15? 12? how many are we talking? That must been one horrible careless individual on the course that day and one given exception to a norm because while Ive seen it...in no way is it anything at all on majority of holes. And fwiw I would often enough see some of it even when we were removing pins all the time. Its increased a tad I can agree but overall not all that much and still a huge amount of people continue to claim they find things flow a bit smoother and quicker when leaving the pin. I have to believe that you just came across a rarer unlucky round where some idiot was horrible prior.