What's Happening? Flagstick In or Out?

Just a general chime in....

Played in a member guest over the weekend. There was literally zero issue with any group we played. Some guys left it in on long putts but most agreed to take it out. It never once caused an issue nor did it slow down play


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PKorf;n8875239 said:
Just a general chime in....

Played in a member guest over the weekend. There was literally zero issue with any group we played. Some guys left it in on long putts but most agreed to take it out. It never once caused an issue nor did it slow down play


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Sure it slowed play. Not to any problematic level but this imo is where some disconnect is as for what leaving the pins saves us vs having had to pull them.
You see.....it doesnt have to cause a slow play problem nor be such an issue at all but it does (like anything else we do outside of actually taking our shots) to some degree add time to what we do. I mean someone always had to get the pin. That person is now pulled away from thier own opportunity to ready themselves (line up etc) for thier own shot/putt. They have to navigate lines to get the pin, perhaps have to man the pin, and have to navigate to lay it down somewhere. etc. The different scenarios of pin pulling (as it where the rule) and including those pulling it for chipping were endless. There always was time involved and always some disruption to soemones readiness or possibly more than one persons readiness to tend to and play thier own ball/s. Just because it was not always problematic slow, doesnt deny the fact that it uses time. And it was finally realized that (most often) it was unnecessary time. And compounded due to someone often having to only afterwards then be able to then line up and ready for thier own putt/shot.

That always was a disruption to flow and slowed things. Problematically slow? not most the time for most groups, but still slowed things. Whatever time frame a 4some were to play their round in, it would be added time.
 
i think i'm ready to say i prefer it left in. i think it's faster, and to me it's not a distraction at all. i played last week, and 2 of us didn't care but the other 2 wanted it out for pretty much every putt. i found myself wishing it was in.
 
I had a putt on Sunday hit the flag on a putt, bounce out that normally would have fallen cause it wasn't going that fast. I don't know if the flag was leaning the wrong way or not. But my position will always be to take the flag out
 
McLovin;n8878231 said:
i think i'm ready to say i prefer it left in. i think it's faster, and to me it's not a distraction at all. i played last week, and 2 of us didn't care but the other 2 wanted it out for pretty much every putt. i found myself wishing it was in.

And again, I continue to experience those who want it out being the only ones (among the two groups) who are never willing to accept things the other way. A number of rounds now where most people are leaving it in. Yet whenever even just one person from the other camp of preference is the only one among the group, the pin gets pulled. I consistently see and experience those wanting it in are the only ones willing to accommodate the other group and yet never (not once yet) do I experience the accommodation the other way. They are simply not willing to go with the majority. Whenever the pin in person is a minority 1-in-3 they accommodate the groups preference. Whenever its 50/50 the pin in folks again accommodate. Yet just do not at all ever experience it the other way. Just sayin its worth noting imo.
 
rollin;n8879604 said:
And again, I continue to experience those who want it out being the only ones (among the two groups) who are never willing to accept things the other way. A number of rounds now where most people are leaving it in. Yet whenever even just one person from the other camp of preference is the only one among the group, the pin gets pulled. I consistently see and experience those wanting it in are the only ones willing to accommodate the other group and yet never (not once yet) do I experience the accommodation the other way. They are simply not willing to go with the majority. Whenever the pin in person is a minority 1-in-3 they accommodate the groups preference. Whenever its 50/50 the pin in folks again accommodate. Yet just do not at all ever experience it the other way. Just sayin its worth noting imo.

I prefer it out in the 2-8 feet range but my general group wants it left in. I leave it in and don’t say a word.
 
oumagic;n8879616 said:
I prefer it out in the 2-8 feet range but my general group wants it left in. I leave it in and don’t say a word.

And I like most (pin in folks) are accommodating and even assisting the other way even when they are the only one. But you are not the norm from the other camp. At least not from what Ive witnessed thus far pretty much all season.
 
rollin;n8879622 said:
And I like most (pin in folks) are accommodating and even assisting the other way even when they are the only one. But you are not the norm from the other camp. At least not from what Ive witnessed thus far pretty much all season.

It is a mess, for sure. We (12 of us) tried leaving it in exclusively for a month. Some liked it and some didn’t. I like the thought of it, but just have an aversion to hitting the pin on short ones. I know it is mental and I hope to get over it, but I truly feel I miss one or two short ones per round because of my mental aversion to hitting that sucker. One or two shots a round is not worth me complaining when the others may want it in.

When I play as a single, I go with the majority and am happy to pull it for people that want it pulled and put it in if someone asks me to put it back.
 
rollin;n8879622 said:
And I like most (pin in folks) are accommodating and even assisting the other way even when they are the only one. But you are not the norm from the other camp. At least not from what Ive witnessed thus far pretty much all season.

The norm at the dozen or so courses I’ve played in Minnesota this summer is pin in for long putts and pull it for anything inside of 15 feet. I’ve only had one round this year where it was pin in for all putts.
 
tahoebum;n8879630 said:
The norm at the dozen or so courses I’ve played in Minnesota this summer is pin in for long putts and pull it for anything inside of 15 feet. I’ve only had one round this year where it was pin in for all putts.

well, all I can say is that on my 5 county public courses the majority are leaving it in or at least preferring it in. But as said its often coming out as the other camp is less willing even though the lessor. But to be fair it could just be coincidence that I happen to be in groups where the majority would rather leave it be.
 
rollin;n8638115 said:
perhaps they always felt it was an unnecessary task to being with.

Well then I guess when your in the minority you'll be pulling your own pins.

Here yet again another example how so many more of those who want it pulled are far less willing to allow the other way vs those who would rather leave it in. In fact you've even self appointed yourself the pin pull Gestapo and are assigning punishments. Quite comical really.

You're really projecting here (and you might have missed the part where I prefer it in). We pull it and replace it for each other without much fuss generally. We also give someone who acts lazy/inconvenienced about it either way a huge ration of sh*t. It's called camaraderie.

And with strangers, it's called being accommodating. If I and the rest are being accommodating (either way), and someone isn't, I'll tend to give them a little grief too.
 
rollin;n8879604 said:
And again, I continue to experience those who want it out being the only ones (among the two groups) who are never willing to accept things the other way. A number of rounds now where most people are leaving it in. Yet whenever even just one person from the other camp of preference is the only one among the group, the pin gets pulled. I consistently see and experience those wanting it in are the only ones willing to accommodate the other group and yet never (not once yet) do I experience the accommodation the other way. They are simply not willing to go with the majority. Whenever the pin in person is a minority 1-in-3 they accommodate the groups preference. Whenever its 50/50 the pin in folks again accommodate. Yet just do not at all ever experience it the other way. Just sayin its worth noting imo.
Sounds like you need some new playing partners, bud. I thought this rule had the potential to cause issues (which is why I didn't like it at first), but it hasn't been an issue in a single round I have played. Surprisingly, no one I've played with has has been too rigid, one way or the other. Most rounds, I putt with it both in and out, and I've not seen any difference in my putting stats. Though I do like it in for lag putts--just a better target.

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JMB3;n8879687 said:
Sounds like you need some new playing partners, bud. I thought this rule had the potential to cause issues (which is why I didn't like it at first), but it hasn't been an issue in a single round I have played. Surprisingly, no one I've played with has has been too rigid, one way or the other. Most rounds, I putt with it both in and out, and I've not seen any difference in my putting stats. Though I do like it in for lag putts--just a better target.

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I truly believe the stats portion will at best be negligible regardless.
Its not like this is ruining my enjoyment. As said I been accommodating the other way. Im just not a fan of it. Olayed today with a group who wanted it out. And so I went with the flow of pulling it. pain in the neck imo and unnecessary but still I just go with it.

But I really do hope they make it 100% in only (except for heavy winds) but even then just get poins with thin rigid bottom foot of the pole and there are no issues.

I find I aim better with the pin in. Imo it pinpoints the cup center so much clearer (to me and my eyes).

I honeslt have only seen a couple (maybe 3) putts hit and go out with pin in. Yet Ivge also seen the pin save several and or keep them close for an easy comebacker vs out.

either way honestly its so minimal. Imo its more about the flow to the play of the group.
 
Initially after the rule change I was for keeping the pin in. Lately I've been pulling it and actually putting better. For some reason with the pin in I was consistently over shooting my putts. No ryme or reason, just a stupid mental thing I think.

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Played today with a buddy and 2 strangers. It was stated no one cared if the pin was in or out. I stayed neutral just to see how things went since I haven't played with strangers in a while. Pin stayed in until everyone got close then whoever was closest got the pin and first out picked it up to replace it. Pin wasn't a distraction because it was out of the cup and out of the way. Just like golf etiquette was back before the rule changed and how it should be. Zero change in pace of play. Finished in 3:50 and the 2 strangers were at least 20 handicaps.
 
pilot25;n8880326 said:
Played today with a buddy and 2 strangers. It was stated no one cared if the pin was in or out. I stayed neutral just to see how things went since I haven't played with strangers in a while. Pin stayed in until everyone got close then whoever was closest got the pin and first out picked it up to replace it. Pin wasn't a distraction because it was out of the cup and out of the way. Just like golf etiquette was back before the rule changed and how it should be. Zero change in pace of play. Finished in 3:50 and the 2 strangers were at least 20 handicaps.

well, thats not the way it use to be because you all left it in till close. There is a huge difference in that. As for pace, did you really expect some huge difference? After all your grouop did leave it in till close, and besides regardless of your 350 time frame you couldn't know what it would have been had you just left it be because thats not what your group did.
 
pilot25;n8880326 said:
Played today with a buddy and 2 strangers. It was stated no one cared if the pin was in or out. I stayed neutral just to see how things went since I haven't played with strangers in a while. Pin stayed in until everyone got close then whoever was closest got the pin and first out picked it up to replace it. Pin wasn't a distraction because it was out of the cup and out of the way. Just like golf etiquette was back before the rule changed and how it should be. Zero change in pace of play. Finished in 3:50 and the 2 strangers were at least 20 handicaps.

We play very similar to that in our foursome. Unless someone needs the pin in because they can't see the hole, either the guy closest to the pin pulls it or one of us walking to our ball before anyone is even ready to putt will pull it. Then the first guy to hole out picks up the flagstick and puts it back in the cup when the last guy has finished the hole. Makes for a really consistent and nice flow for us. This also serves the purpose of us not adding to any damage to the cups, which I have seen far too much of this year, caused by people carelessly reaching into the hole with the flagstick in, or pulling the ball out using the flagstick or old guys using their "pick-em-up" devices in a careless manner.

We are out on the course early and typically play in well under three hours. The only times we even approach three hours is when we have to wait for the maintenance crew out on the course raking bunkers or cutting grass.
 
here is something to point out imo.
There are indeed very many folks being from the "out" camp who are leaving it in till closer. That in itself (even coming from that camp) imo whether realized or not speaks for the fact that dealing with the pin always was generally an unnecessary disruption to the play and flow of the group. That action imo whether you know it or not is in part admitting this very thing. Even those folks are finding things much simpler and or smoother flowing by having all tend to their own ball bushiness via not dealing at all with the pins till much closer. Just sayin :)
 
I realized after my round yesterday that I've now played four rounds in a row, three of them in threesomes and one in a foursome, without anyone pulling the pin a single time. So among my tiny little subset of the golfing world, the change to simply always ignoring the pin is proceeding pretty quickly. And honestly, my little subset of golfing world is all I really care about.

So for me, the new Rule is now officially a success. Basically took 7 months.

P.S. I did straighten the flagstick one time Saturday when someone had left it only half-seated in the bottom of the cup and it was leaning severely. So someone playing ahead of us must still be pulling it!
 
dsw1519;n8880081 said:
Initially after the rule change I was for keeping the pin in. Lately I've been pulling it and actually putting better. For some reason with the pin in I was consistently over shooting my putts. No ryme or reason, just a stupid mental thing I think.

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And much of golf is mental. To me the cup looks bigger with the flag stick out which makes sense because with it in there is not much real estate(only 0.195” of space when a golf ball is in the hole) before the ball hits the flagstick. I’ve been pulling even the small flagsticks on the practice putting greens since I was a kid on shorter putts so my brain is wired to see an empty hole. I look at the hole when putting and on breaking putts I’m looking at the spot where the putt should enter the hole and having the flagstick in tends to draw my attention to the center of the hole instead of my off center target. It’s visually very distracting and even more so when the wind is blowing. As a result I miss more breaking putts with the flagstick in on the low side because the flag in makes my brain play less break.

Luckily everyone I’ve played with has no problem with me pulling it for shorter putts. If it bothers them they keep it to themselves. I occasionally play with a guy who insists on having it in and we let him putt out before pulling it.
 
rollin;n8880341 said:
here is something to point out imo.
There are indeed very many folks being from the "out" camp who are leaving it in till closer. That in itself (even coming from that camp) imo whether realized or not speaks for the fact that dealing with the pin always was generally an unnecessary disruption to the play and flow of the group. That action imo whether you know it or not is in part admitting this very thing. Even those folks are finding things much simpler and or smoother flowing by having all tend to their own ball bushiness via not dealing at all with the pins till much closer. Just sayin :)

And the flagstick in has caused a new disruption, damaged edges to the hole that require time and effort to fix. Golfers are damaging the edge of the hole when pulling there balls out with the flagstick in, often causing areas around the perimeter of the hole to be pulled up higher than the surrounding green surface. Damaged holes are now much more common than ever before, an unintended consequence of the new rule that I’m guessing nobody anticipated. I spent a couple minutes fixing the edges of holes during my last round and am now checking the condition of the hole before any putt inside of 15 feet, something I didn’’t have to do in the past. During my last round, 8 or 9 holes had obvious damage from a careless or large handed golfer. We now have another way for lazy or clumsy golfers to do damage to the course.
 
tahoebum;n8880364 said:
And the flagstick in has caused a new disruption, damaged edges to the hole that require time and effort to fix. Golfers are damaging the edge of the hole when pulling there balls out with the flagstick in, often causing areas around the perimeter of the hole to be pulled up higher than the surrounding green surface. Damaged holes are now much more common than ever before, an unintended consequence of the new rule that I’m guessing nobody anticipated. I spent a couple minutes fixing the edges of holes during my last round and am now checking the condition of the hole before any putt inside of 15 feet, something I didn’’t have to do in the past. During my last round, 8 or 9 holes had obvious damage from a careless or large handed golfer. We now have another way for lazy or clumsy golfers to do damage to the course.

you play more golf than i do, but i play at crappier courses that get a ton of play. i haven’t seen anything like this.


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tahoebum;n8880351 said:
And much of golf is mental. To me the cup looks bigger with the flag stick out which makes sense because with it in there is not much real estate(only 0.195” of space when a golf ball is in the hole) before the ball hits the flagstick. I’ve been pulling even the small flagsticks on the practice putting greens since I was a kid on shorter putts so my brain is wired to see an empty hole. I look at the hole when putting and on breaking putts I’m looking at the spot where the putt should enter the hole and having the flagstick in tends to draw my attention to the center of the hole instead of my off center target. It’s visually very distracting and even more so when the wind is blowing. As a result I miss more breaking putts with the flagstick in on the low side because the flag in makes my brain play less break.

Luckily everyone I'’ve played with has no problem with me pulling it for shorter putts. If it bothers them they keep it to themselves. I occasionally play with a guy who insists on having it in and we let him putt out before pulling it.

Me too. I leave it in once in a while to try to keep the flow going and to see if this leopard can change his spots, but not comfortable yet.
 
McLovin;n8880377 said:
you play more golf than i do, but i play at crappier courses that get a ton of play. i haven’t seen anything like this.


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Or maybe the normal state of the holes at public courses is already worse. My club changes the pin locations daily has some of the best conditioned greens in Minnesota which makes it easy makes a damaged lip of the hole stick out like a sore thumb.
 
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