Flagstick - Science says you should pull it 99.9% of the time.

tahoebum

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Interesting article explaining why leaving the flagstick in will result in more putts missed. The science in this article makes sense to me and I’m glad someone took the time and effort to use the scientific method to measure this.

A quote from the summary section:

“Leaving the flagstick in may have some benefits but from a physics standpoint, there is zero evidence to suggest that the flagstick helps in any but the rarest of situations. What the flagstick may do is occasionally reduce the length of a second putt and therefore possibly help reduce three-putts. Of course, it also will clearly and substantially reduce the number of one-putts. It’s also clear from our research that the fiberglass type of flagstick is the least detrimental (but still nowhere near as good as taking the flagstick out).”

https://www.insidehook.com/daily_br...d-pull-the-flagstick-99-9-percent-of-the-time
 
:comp:
Interesting article explaining why leaving the flagstick in will result in more putts missed. The science in this article makes sense to me and I’m glad someone took the time and effort to use the scientific method to measure this.

A quote from the summary section:

“Leaving the flagstick in may have some benefits but from a physics standpoint, there is zero evidence to suggest that the flagstick helps in any but the rarest of situations. What the flagstick may do is occasionally reduce the length of a second putt and therefore possibly help reduce three-putts. Of course, it also will clearly and substantially reduce the number of one-putts. It’s also clear from our research that the fiberglass type of flagstick is the least detrimental (but still nowhere near as good as taking the flagstick out).”

https://www.insidehook.com/daily_br...d-pull-the-flagstick-99-9-percent-of-the-time

You need to send this to Bryson D! lol
 
Unless I missed it, the study didn't take into account breaking or up/downhill putts. It so didn't take into account putts that grab a varying amount of cup, possible lip out situations etc.

The situation where it hurts you make sense, situations where it makes glancing hard impact. Definitely something to take into account. But it doesn't seem complete yet.
 
All these studies are cracking me up.

Never thought a flagstick would lead to so much debate.
 
All these studies are cracking me up.

Never thought a flagstick would lead to so much debate.

Me either, it’s such a topic these days. Every round at my club, someone will bring it up. I can tell you that leaving it in doesn’t speed some people up. Slow is slow no matter what you do
 
This should say "one scientific experiment says you should pull it 99.9% of the time". There have been others that have had different results under slightly different conditions. But that's the nature of experimentation.

The one interesting thing they did not is 3 putt avoidance with the flagstick in - if the ball hits the flag, it's likely to stay (reasonably) close to the hole, and a good deal closer than it would have otherwise. To say there are a lot of moving pieces/conditions to measure here is an understatement.

Me, I keep it in most of the time when coming in with a long putt, take it out when I'm close if I think it's going to cause problems. Anecdotally, I haven't had a putt bounce off the stick yet that didn't go in, but I tend to be a dead weight putter.
 
60% of the time, it works everytime
 
Unless I missed it, the study didn't take into account breaking or up/downhill putts. It so didn't take into account putts that grab a varying amount of cup, possible lip out situations etc.

The situation where it hurts you make sense, situations where it makes glancing hard impact. Definitely something to take into account. But it doesn't seem complete yet.

It did take into account putts that didn’t hit the center of the hole, which is about 72% of all putts. Putts that would close enough to the edge of the cup to lip out would not be hitting the pin at all until they were below the surface of the green. I don’t think from a physics standpoint that it matters much if it’s a breaking putt as the ball is rolling end over end and not spinning into the hole.

They definitely proved that for the flagstick to help you would have to hit center cup(only happens 27.6% of the time for a PGA Tour quality putter) and also have to have the ball traveling fast enough to finish 9+ feet past the hole which happens only 1.27% of the time. Us amateurs don’t putt as well so that 27.6% would be even lower. I personally don’t hit many putts past the hole more than 9 feet and if I do I’m putting from beyond 40 feet and certainly not likely to be anywhere near center cup or hitting the hole at all.

I thought it was interesting that with a putt hit at a speed that would finish 2.5 feet pass the hole 100% of the putts went in wether the flagstick was in or not. But when hitting a putt at a speed that would have it finish 4.5’ past the hole, leaving the flagstick in cut your chances of making the putt in half! Double the chance of making on those 72% of putts that hit the hole and don’t hit center cup is a big deal to me. I certainly hit a lot of putts like that, maybe one or two per round. If it’s once per round that means leaving the flagstick in on all putts would raise my index .5 strokes.

Before reading this I was planning on leaving the flag in on longer putts(unless someone has already pulled it) and having it pulled when I get inside of about 15 feet as I find the shadow and the flag moving visually distracting especially short putts. Now I will likely always have it pulled when I’m inside of 30 feet unless I’m playing alone.
 
I like it in on long putts...out on short. Its a mess on the greens...some want it in, some out, How about if the ball is ejected by the big fat pin no one pulled for you...count it as a holed putt! FWIW leave it in for the first putts, then out for 2nd putts.
 
I don’t think from a physics standpoint that it matters much if it’s a breaking putt as the ball is rolling end over end and not spinning into the hole. They definitely proved that for the flagstick to help you would have to hit center cup(only happens 27.6% of the time for a PGA Tour quality putter) and also have to have the ball traveling fast enough to finish 9+ feet past the hole which happens only 1.27% of the time. Us amateurs don’t putt as well so that 27.6% would be even lower. I personally don’t hit many putts past the hole more than 9 feet and if I do I’m putting from beyond 40 feet and certainly not likely to be anywhere near center cup or hitting the hole at all.

I thought it was interesting that with a putt hit at a speed that would finish 2.5 feet pass the hole 100% of the putts went in wether the flagstick was in or not. But when hitting a putt at a speed that would have it finish 4.5’ past the hole, leaving the flagstick in cut your chances of making the putt in half! Double the chance of making on those 72% of putts that don’t hit center cup is a big deal to me. I certainly hit a lot of putts like that, maybe one or two per round. For me that means leaving the flagstick in on all putts would likely raise my index .5 strokes or more.

Before reading this I was planning on leaving the flag in on longer putts(unless someone has already pulled it) and having it pulled when I get inside of about 15 feet as I find the shadow and the flag moving visually distracting especially short putts. Now I will likely always have it pulled when I’m inside of 30 feet unless I’m playing alone.

I think it does matter very much, if the cup is on a grade it's also going to matter which side of the flag you hit. I also think not addressing how much you miss the center by leaves alot of potential results out. It doesn't even address uphill vs downhill putts, which we know makes a difference.

I do think this study has some validity, it just isn't nearly as far reaching as it claims.
 
The easiest way to measure this is not some scientist rolling balls at a stick. It's by measuring putting statistics on tour over time. The PGA Tour will know by the end of this season.
 
The Bryson logic still cracks me up. "If I smash it into the pin dead center from three feet away, there's no WAY it would go in without the pin" lmao

Team flag pull 100% within 30-35 feet. Love the debate, love the science behind some of it.
 
I'm good either way. I have had a couple hit the pin and go off but stayed with in two feet. For those instances they where just to fast of putts. I don't think it speeds play at all but that is another discussion.
 
The Bryson logic still cracks me up. "If I smash it into the pin dead center from three feet away, there's no WAY it would go in without the pin" lmao

Team flag pull 100% within 30-35 feet. Love the debate, love the science behind some of it.

Let’s you be aggressive on short putts, which is a big deal for a lot of golfers. Has been huge for my HS girls from that range.
 
Dave Pelz did an extensive test of this years ago which many considered definitive, but like many things Pelz says IMO it was always questionable.

There are newer tests that are showing the OP article may be correct, it depends greatly on the type of flagstick shaft.

Here is a good testing on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=122&v=q6Rs22gAkeg
 
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The Pelz study - which was scientific - came to the exact opposite conclusion
 
I think there is a psychological factor to leaving it in that can't really be taken into account scientifically. As someone alluded to before, if your miss is short (shame on you!), then it might help to keep it in. Although if that was you, I would suggest investing in that $50 putting strip from Skilz with the last foot up an incline.

Regarding pace of play which was the reason for the rule change, I have played rounds where we just left it in the whole time and I do think it speeds things up. But I have also played rounds where one person wants it in and the next person wants it out and then back in etc which feels like it slows things down. Also having to ask every time instead just leaving it or pulling it creates more talk then otherwise was needed.
 
I was firmly in the "I don't care" camp until last weekend. I'd sometimes been leaving it in and sometimes been pulling it and I hadn't seen any difference whatsoever. But in a two-man tournament on Saturday, my partner had about a 5-foot putt slightly downhill, breaking to the right. The putt was to win the hole and he hit it fairly firmly, but not with excessive speed by any means. It was solidly in the hole, but not dead center--ever so slightly on the left (high) side of the stick. It looked like it was going to drop, but the pin kicked it out on the high side of the hole. It was the first time I've seen it and it's purely anecdotal, but I'm going back to pulling it, at least inside of 20 feet or so.
 
This should say "one scientific experiment says you should pull it 99.9% of the time". There have been others that have had different results under slightly different conditions. But that's the nature of experimentation.

The one interesting thing they did not is 3 putt avoidance with the flagstick in - if the ball hits the flag, it's likely to stay (reasonably) close to the hole, and a good deal closer than it would have otherwise. To say there are a lot of moving pieces/conditions to measure here is an understatement.

Me, I keep it in most of the time when coming in with a long putt, take it out when I'm close if I think it's going to cause problems. Anecdotally, I haven't had a putt bounce off the stick yet that didn't go in, but I tend to be a dead weight putter.

Exactly, one science says it is better to leave it in, another says it is better to pull the flag... I had a 40' birdie putt lip out with the pin in, it caught the high side corner and rode the back of the cup never touching the flag and a guy in my group goes "that is why you should pull the pin".... Ball never touched the stick, so it had ZERO impact on that particular putt going in or out...

I think many of these studies have confirmation bias, they want a certain outcome so they focus on proving it right. Personally I could care less. If the people putting in front of me want it in, leave it in, if someone in front of me wants it out, leave it out.
 
I have always felt the flag in makes the hole smaller but that’s just my opinion


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I have always felt the flag in makes the hole smaller but that’s just my opinion


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is the most cogent argument I have heard. There is no arguing that a flagstick is .75" in diameter, a golf hole is 4.25" so that is almost 20% (0.18 to be more exact) so this is not an insignificant size to have in the middle of the hole. What I can't determine and not sure how to, but think it is more of what BDC and Pelz would argue is that hitting the stick with the ball will result in a ball being closer to the hole than if the stick was not in.

That assumes that you have enough pace to get past the flag, if you are coming up short, it obviously has zero impact, if it is dying at the hole... well then you are probably better having the flag out (more area in the cup with the flag out). So I think it really depends on how you putt, and even then I am not sure that having closer putts on ones you bang off the stick makes up for all the ones that would drop into the cup if the flag was out.

Regardless of all of that, it would take a lot of putts, probably in the thousands to get any advantage one way or the other as it is gong to be fractions (at least I think it would be) one way or the other.
 
I came to post Pelz and these results:

stats_low.jpg


stats_high.jpg


So it seems like the jury is still out on this one.
 
The same thing happened to me. Had about a 15 footer for birdie in a tournament hit the pin at what was a normal pace (maybe would have rolled 3-4 ft by) and the flag kicked it out. For the rest of the day everyone in my group pulled the flag. I still leave it in on long putts, but if I think I've got a good chance to make it, I'm pulling it.

I was firmly in the "I don't care" camp until last weekend. I'd sometimes been leaving it in and sometimes been pulling it and I hadn't seen any difference whatsoever. But in a two-man tournament on Saturday, my partner had about a 5-foot putt slightly downhill, breaking to the right. The putt was to win the hole and he hit it fairly firmly, but not with excessive speed by any means. It was solidly in the hole, but not dead center--ever so slightly on the left (high) side of the stick. It looked like it was going to drop, but the pin kicked it out on the high side of the hole. It was the first time I've seen it and it's purely anecdotal, but I'm going back to pulling it, at least inside of 20 feet or so.
 
I came to post Pelz and these results:

stats_low.jpg


stats_high.jpg


So it seems like the jury is still out on this one.

How did he define center strike vs off center strike? You'd think a putt only rolling 6' passed with a center strike (no pin) would go down more than 35% of the time.
 
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