Is pace of play *actually* hurting the game?

[alexped2393]

There's always variables. Again though, I still believe it goes back to mindset more than anything based on 5 years of collecting pace of play data for two courses.

It is a mindset to play at an acceptable speed. But as someone else has said a 4 ball of 28 handicappers will not finish in the same time as a 4 ball of 5 handicappers on most courses, if both groups have the same ethics and such around slow play.

 

[alexped2393]

yea I can agree but the problem is that very many better cappers are very capable of causing gridlock in a desert. can be human rain delays. Many can spend much more time playing there better played game than the higher cappers do playing their lousy one. That is not at all uncommon. In fact is far from uncommon. It does work both ways. And because of the better play that better player who is the human rain delay dos not for one second even consider that he is a problem.

Get you, but I put the caveat in that everyone has the same principles around playing to an acceptable speed, eg hitting when it is your turn, no wandering around etc etc

 

[Golf Ghost]

It is a mindset to play at an acceptable speed. But as someone else has said a 4 ball of 28 handicappers will not finish in the same time as a 4 ball of 5 handicappers on most courses, if both groups have the same ethics and such around slow play.

Correct when the bolded is true.

 

[alexped2393]

Correct when the bolded is true.

Oh it's a big IF I know

 

[rollin]

Agreed, a group of decent players will usually outpace a group of poor players, and the notion that a poor player making 8's is going to keep up with a bogey golfer easily if they just play ready golf is plain wrong, they can't.

This disparity in player skill is probably the biggest cause of slow play on any given course, although just plain old congestion and the courses unwillingness to gap tee times to allow for it is really the biggest issue IMO.

that is so not true. A pace aware bad player can certainly make 8's as fast as the better player plays the hole if he is not one who plays with a sense of pace awareness. Ive played many my worst rounds (100+) in well under 4hrs many times. Ive also seen the people playing better golf hold me up while playing my bad golf. I have been with many groups of 90's players waiting on groups of single digit players all the time.

Yes if a 20 capper and a 8 capper both have the same mindset (all things being equal) about pace the 8 capper should on average be quicker. But the 20 capper doesn't have to be a problem. He wil have to work harder but doent have to be a problem at all if he does. And when the 20 capper is the one with the correct pace mindset while the 8 capper isn't then the 20 capper may not only keep up but may even play faster. And your not even talking 8 capper but talking bogey player who himself is hitting 4's 5's and 6's. V]But very many better players do not think they are slow because of their good play and that really is just not true. They very often are the ones bogging up the greens taking sweat time doing just about everything, and refusing to let their occasional lost ball go.

 

[rollin]

Get you, but I put the caveat in that everyone has the same principles around playing to an acceptable speed, eg hitting when it is your turn, no wandering around etc etc

I played with a group (me being single) with some pretty decent players. They were talkers. one of which would begin conversation whil his turn to tee it up. he would pull off from his routine in the midst of it just to freaking talk. I was like..."hello, hmmm hmm , we need to hit the ball" ?? if you cant alk and hit at the same time then just hit first and talk after. I could actualy talk to you while Im hitting but many people cant do that which is fine of course I understand that. But then if that's the case don't talk as its your turn, get your ball hit and then talk your mind after.

 

[alexped2393]

Just thought of something.


Do the majority of higher handicappers just walk up to a ball and belt it? Because I know a fair few older folk who don't hit it very far at all and because of this only ever have one option when over 150 from the green and that is lay up. So they just dink, dink, dink, putt, putt, putt and off they go. Rather that having to think if you will carry a hazard, have to turn it a little to not run through the fairway. When 220 out do I lay up, where should I lay up, where are the hazards, do I go for it, can I go for it, is someone on the green still etc etc etc.

Flippin heck I'm going into a slow play rabbit hole

 

[darthweasel]

Agreed, a group of decent players will usually outpace a group of poor players, and the notion that a poor player making 8's is going to keep up with a bogey golfer easily if they just play ready golf is plain wrong, they can't.

This disparity in player skill is probably the biggest cause of slow play on any given course, although just plain old congestion and the courses unwillingness to gap tee times to allow for it is really the biggest issue IMO.

they not only can, I have seen it often. I have seen way too many bogey golfers looking at the putt from all four sides, checking out the cup, check from above the hole again...they take more time on the greens than the poor player did playing his army golf to get there. The notion that decent players are faster because they are taking fewer shots is demonstrably wrong and it is not a rare thing.


I have played with many, many poor players...arguably, at this moment I myself am a poor player as injuries have my handicap over 20...and most of us, we grab a club, take a practice swing, maybe two, and whack away. Get to the green, take a quick glance, roll it.

Meanwhile the good players are grabbing some blades of grass and throwing it in the air to test the wind, looking at the two clubs every single shot just happened to land between, shooting the flag, the sand trap, that tree over there, considering the yardage, take 8 practice swings, visualize the shot, and then when they get to the green taking even longer.

Sure, there are crap players that take a bunch of practice swings and time lining up putts...just as there are some good players that know what they are going to do and execute it pretty quick. But the idea player skill disparity is the time issue is not anywhere near accurate. Overall, the better the players I am matched with the longer the round, and that includes random matchups while traveling, local tournaments and observing other groups to see why we are waiting on many a course.

 

[alexped2393]

I played with a group (me being single) with some pretty decent players. They were talkers. one of which would begin conversation whil his turn to tee it up. he would pull off from his routine in the midst of it just to freaking talk. I was like..."hello, hmmm hmm , we need to hit the ball" ?? if you cant alk and hit at the same time then just hit first and talk after. I could actualy talk to you while Im hitting but many people cant do that which is fine of course I understand that. But then if that's the case don't talk as its your turn, get your ball hit and then talk your mind after.

You don't get what I said earlier, everyone has the same principles around playing speed so none of these situations are occurring.

In theory IF you ALL have the SAME pre-shot routine, SAME walking speed, SAME shot/club selection speed then the person who swings the LEAST will take the LEAST amount of time.

IN THEORY

 

[rollin]

Just thought of something.


Do the majority of higher handicappers just walk up to a ball and belt it? Because I know a fair few older folk who don't hit it very far at all and because of this only ever have one option when over 150 from the green and that is lay up. So they just dink, dink, dink, putt, putt, putt and off they go. Rather that having to think if you will carry a hazard, have to turn it a little to not run through the fairway. When 220 out do I lay up, where should I lay up, where are the hazards, do I go for it, can I go for it, is someone on the green still etc etc etc.

Flippin heck I'm going into a slow play rabbit hole

Imo it doesn't matter, its about walking to the ball quicker and planning your next decision prior to arriving. have an idea what your going to do. being prepared for your game. that one of the many potential issues with carts. Enough people in carts do tend to get involved with other conversation and do nothing to prepare for their next play mentally. only when they arrive do they afterwards make all their decisions. basically they sort of lose the focus of playing ready golf.

 

[Golf Ghost]

Agreed, a group of decent players will usually outpace a group of poor players, and the notion that a poor player making 8's is going to keep up with a bogey golfer easily if they just play ready golf is plain wrong, they can't.

This disparity in player skill is probably the biggest cause of slow play on any given course, although just plain old congestion and the courses unwillingness to gap tee times to allow for it is really the biggest issue IMO.

It's really not.

You're looking at all golfers have the same mindset surround pace of play and ready golf. The course I worked at had a terrible pace of play issue, we made a change an started tracking 9 hole times along with 18 hole times. We started to encourage ready golf and started to chat with groups that were slow. If anything, higher handicappers are the ones who are more open to the idea of ready golf and being aware of their groups where abouts on the course.

There's too many variables to just pinpoint handicap or ability as the issue.

 

[rollin]

You don't get what I said earlier, everyone has the same principles around playing speed so none of these situations are occurring.

In theory IF you ALL have the SAME pre-shot routine, SAME walking speed, SAME shot/club selection speed then the person who swings the LEAST will take the LEAST amount of time.

IN THEORY

I get you but I just through a story out there....lol
Yes all else being equal (I thought I mention that too) then a better player should be quicker of course.
But in the end a poorer player of the game even if slower than the equally pace minded better player dosnt have to add up to being a problem. Slower and a problem are two different things.

 

[alexped2393]

There's too many variables to just pinpoint handicap or ability as the issue.

:micdrop:

Can we leave it at this??

 

[Golf Ghost]

:micdrop:

Can we leave it at this??

Unfortunately, I don't think that will happen.

 

[Space Bandito]

My private course has Women's day on Wedensdays and its a real PITA. Not because of the players but because of the way it's run. They set aside all the morning tee times for women and only women which is fantastic if there were more than about 8 women that actually play during that designated time. The course reserves 24 freaking premium tee times for 1-4 groups. It's our club's way of saying "look you matter too." Of course, there are absolutely no restrictions on women playing any other time the course is open.

How does that relate to pace of play? Well, it really doesn't... So I digress.

I wonder if it's not some back-handed way of dealing with pace of play. Perhaps there is a notion amongst members that the ladies cause a pace issue. To provide a large amount of time for a small group of people and give it a special name is a way to gently push the issue into a designated area in the guise of making the "issue" feel special. I don't know. Too conspiracy theory?

 

[Space Bandito]

and its also a mindset of the course management itself. I go back to my post about tee time intervals needing elbow room in order for pace to ever work in the first place.

My old place of residence area was constant 5 plus hr rounds and often 5.5 and even longer vs where I live now for years is 4 to 4.5 (usually about 4:20) on weekends an often can be 4 or rarer but can even be less. The only difference between the two areas is that my county uses 10 minute tee intervals vs my old place/s used 7 minutes. Same types of players and people, nothing different about anyone or anything. The only difference was tee time intervals. A golf course has no business preaching pace when they themselves are causing the issue from the first tee and want to get as many greens fees as they can and it comes at the expense of good pace. Its a farce and its hypocritical.

Unfortunately my county this year decided to bring the intervals down to 9 minutes from the 10. I did not know this at first. I usually head out as a single with no reservation and so I just plug when when a spot opens. Without having any clue about the new tee times I did notice that the pace had become a bit slower than normal. It just seemed liked the rounds were living more on the longer side of the normal spectrum. I was simply thinking I was just got a bit unlucky that several rounds I played in were the ones which took a bit longer. And then I come to find out they changed the times down to 9 from 10. And that's when I realized I wasn't just unlucky ending up in a few slower sided paced rounds but instead that one less minute of less elbow room between tee times has now increased the rounds times a bit. That one minute is all it took. Ok so its not 7 but it made a noticeable difference being 9 vs 10. We use toi get to part 3's with a group on the green and wait an now its become norm to have a grouo still teeing off as we make our way to the 3. I mean just that one minute has affected things. As said I had no idea and simply thought I was unlucky to coincidentally play in rounds that were slower than average. But now I see because of the one minute difference it has actually had a negative affect and moved the average up a to be a bit longer.

They got too greedy. Not only increased fees but now squeezing in more groups. One minute sounds like nothing but tee times (concerning the required elbow room neede in order to work well) reach a curve of diminished returns at some point. From 12 to 11 may not mean anything pace wise and from 11 to 10 may have some but minimal affect. But 10 to 9 has become very noticeable and imo crosses that line where now its felt and no longer works so well. And of course less than 9 would be even worse eventually reaching the disaster my old courses had pace wise with their 7 minute tee times.

This sounds more they may be in need of the extra revenue. But this day and age, who knows. It's either "costs are up, and we have no choice to pass it on to the consumer," or "hey we can squeeze 32 extra seats into this 737 if we just tell our customers to cut off their legs, or better yet, charge them for bringing their legs on the plane!"

 

[Space Bandito]

that is so not true. A pace aware bad player can certainly make 8's as fast as the better player plays the hole if he is not one who plays with a sense of pace awareness. Ive played many my worst rounds (100+) in well under 4hrs many times. Ive also seen the people playing better golf hold me up while playing my bad golf. I have been with many groups of 90's players waiting on groups of single digit players all the time.

Absolutely! I have often holed a double or triple bogey, walked back to my bag, marked it on the card, and had something to drink all while waiting for a friend of mine to play his 2nd shot. The problem really lies in the fact that this friend doesn't play anywhere near as well as I do, and his pre-shot routine takes a ridiculous amount of time. So now I'm sitting around waiting for him to take his 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc.

 

[Space Bandito]

It's really not.

You're looking at all golfers have the same mindset surround pace of play and ready golf. The course I worked at had a terrible pace of play issue, we made a change an started tracking 9 hole times along with 18 hole times. We started to encourage ready golf and started to chat with groups that were slow. If anything, higher handicappers are the ones who are more open to the idea of ready golf and being aware of their groups where abouts on the course.

There's too many variables to just pinpoint handicap or ability as the issue.

Perhaps another case of "golf ego." In their minds, better players couldn't possibly be part the problem.

 

[DG_1234]

The recent trend in my area is for golf shop staff and course marshalls to proclaim "our course pace of play policy is 4 hours 15 minutes". In other words, if a group is on pace to meet or beat 4:15, the groups following that group do not have a legitimate claim for slow play.
This type of policy is absurd. A much better one is " you must keep up with the group in front of you", which is the long time, traditional standard policy most golf courses used.

 

[Awstyn]

On the beginner, high handicap, or poor play causing delay. That is something I can't allow myself to get frustrated with. Waiting is waiting but this isn't lack of consideration or ignorance. Lost balls, hitting trees, etc. happens to everyone and we've all made people wait. This is where some consideration before teeing off might help. My enjoyment should not take away from others.

When I'm taking more shots than others around me, I try to acknowledge it. But I do not want anyone (including myself) to feel rushed.

All I can ask is for golfers to make an effort to keep the play flowing. Five practice swings, the stare downs at address, story time at the wrong time... That is what hurts the game.

 

[Golf Ghost]

The recent trend in my area is for golf shop staff and course marshalls to proclaim "our course pace of play policy is 4 hours 15 minutes". In other words, if a group is on pace to meet or beat 4:15, the groups following that group do not have a legitimate claim for slow play.
This type of policy is absurd. A much better one is " you must keep up with the group in front of you", which is the long time, traditional standard policy most golf courses used.

What happens in a scenario where you have three open times between groups, what's the latest group to tee off suppose to do?

 

[DG_1234]

What happens in a scenario where you have three open times between groups, what's the latest group to tee off suppose to do?

My point is that setting an arbitrary "pace of play time", such as 4 hours or 4:15, encourages slow play and gives those guilty of it justification for their behavior.
To answer your question , if a tee sheet had its 8:00 a.m. spot filled, open times at 8:07, 8:14, and 8:21, then filled again from 8:28 onward, the 8:28 group is obligated to not have the groups behind waiting on them (especially since ahead of them is three open times/holes).
In the above scenario, should the 8:35 group be consistently waiting on the 8:28 group, then by about the 3rd green the 8:28 group should step aside and allow the 8:35 to play thru. If there are open holes ahead the offending slow group may have to repeatedly let faster play thru, which is not fun for anyone, but is most fair to all playing the course that day.

 

[Golf Ghost]

My point is that setting an arbitrary "pace of play time", such as 4 hours or 4:15, encourages slow play and gives those guilty of it justification for their behavior.
To answer your question , if a tee sheet had its 8:00 a.m. spot filled, open times at 8:07, 8:14, and 8:21, then filled again from 8:28 onward, the 8:28 group is obligated to not have the groups behind waiting on them (especially since ahead of them is three open times/holes).
In the above scenario, should the 8:35 group be consistently waiting on the 8:28 group, then by about the 3rd green the 8:28 group should step aside and allow the 8:35 to play thru. If there are open holes ahead the offending slow group may have to repeatedly let faster play thru, which is not fun for anyone, but is most fair to all playing the course that day.

Mind expanding on this?

 

[radiman]

My point is that setting an arbitrary "pace of play time", such as 4 hours or 4:15, encourages slow play and gives those guilty of it justification for their behavior.
To answer your question , if a tee sheet had its 8:00 a.m. spot filled, open times at 8:07, 8:14, and 8:21, then filled again from 8:28 onward, the 8:28 group is obligated to not have the groups behind waiting on them (especially since ahead of them is three open times/holes).
In the above scenario, should the 8:35 group be consistently waiting on the 8:28 group, then by about the 3rd green the 8:28 group should step aside and allow the 8:35 to play thru. If there are open holes ahead the offending slow group may have to repeatedly let faster play thru, which is not fun for anyone, but is most fair to all playing the course that day.

One of our local courses used to have a shotty GPS system in their carts. It had pace of play labeled at 4:30 for some reason. A foursome of elderly individuals were ahead of us. We caught up to them on the 10th hole after they stopped in the shop at the turn. As a twosome, we were on their butts up until hole 13. Finally, one of the gentlemen basically had to dictate to his group that they were going to let us through. One of the ladies with them got mad at us for pressing them because their cart said they were keeping pace. Point being, that it can be a justification of sorts to discourage ways of increasing the flow of the course. As a twosome, we waited, having smaller groups wait seems to slow everything down behind. Since we teed off well after them, there was no issues having a twosome go out or a single behind us, or another twosome. The issue wasn't an issue until traffic caught up to the slow group on the back nine.

 

[rollin]

The recent trend in my area is for golf shop staff and course marshalls to proclaim "our course pace of play policy is 4 hours 15 minutes". In other words, if a group is on pace to meet or beat 4:15, the groups following that group do not have a legitimate claim for slow play.
This type of policy is absurd. A much better one is " you must keep up with the group in front of you", which is the long time, traditional standard policy most golf courses used.

That ideology is just as wrong the other way around. Just like most all don't like long rounds, who is to say we should all play in whatever time frame some quicker group ahead plays in? First of all you do have to allow for poorer play even among those of poorer ability who do make effort to not be a slow problem. You also have to allow people to play the game at different time frames and pace (even while not problematic). You cannot expect any given group to play up with speedier players. People do have a right to play the round slower than others would like yet without being a pace problem. Not all pace issues are actual pace issues just because some groups would like to play faster than others.