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Is pace of play *actually* hurting the game?

Elbow Jobertski said:
Plenty of them are having fun. People who unabashedly stink at golf are almost always having a better time than the people who are emotionally invested in their score.
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Regarding people having fun on the golf course, my observations are different from yours.
I've noticed that those playing well, striking good shots, making scores they like etc....are having fun. Golf, like most things in life I think, is more fun and rewarding when done well.
When I try to bowl and throw gutter balls I am not having much fun. When I go fishing my casting is not very good, my line usually ends up getting tangled, I rarely catch fish, and it's not much fun.If I learned how to bowl or fish properly I expect that doing things well would be a lot more fun for me than they are now.
When I play with guys who are making doubles, triples, and "x's" all day long they appear frustrated and don't seem to be having much fun.
 
DG_1234 said:
Regarding people having fun on the golf course, my observations are different from yours.
I've noticed that those playing well, striking good shots, making scores they like etc....are having fun. Golf, like most things in life I think, is more fun and rewarding when done well.
When I try to bowl and throw gutter balls I am not having much fun. When I go fishing my casting is not very good, my line usually ends up getting tangled, I rarely catch fish, and it's not much fun.If I learned how to bowl or fish properly I expect that doing things well would be a lot more fun for me than they are now.
When I play with guys who are making doubles, triples, and "x's" all day long they appear frustrated and don't seem to be having much fun.
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The guys there to just hack around aren't having fun playing with a two handicap who thinks competence at golf is necessary to have a good time? I'd imagine that would be the result.

In my low handicap days these guys didn't like playing with me either because no matter what I would say it made them feel self-conscious and like they were burdening me or something. They had more fun without me.

There are dudes playing multiple times each week who feel accomplishment at breaking 110 on a course with a rating of 64. There is a whole thread here about breaking 100. Either there is an alarming tendency towards masochism among golfers (plausible I guess) or some people are able to enjoy things they aren't all that good at as long as they aren't made to feel self-conscious about their lack of skill.
 
Elbow Jobertski said:
The guys there to just hack around aren't having fun playing with a two handicap who thinks competence at golf is necessary to have a good time? I'd imagine that would be the result.

In my low handicap days these guys didn't like playing with me either because no matter what I would say it made them feel self-conscious and like they were burdening me or something. They had more fun without me.

There are dudes playing multiple times each week who feel accomplishment at breaking 110 on a course with a rating of 64. There is a whole thread here about breaking 100. Either there is an alarming tendency towards masochism among golfers (plausible I guess) or some people are able to enjoy things they aren't all that good at as long as they aren't made to feel self-conscious about their lack of skill.
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Eloquently stated

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Elbow Jobertski said:
The guys there to just hack around aren't having fun playing with a two handicap who thinks competence at golf is necessary to have a good time? I'd imagine that would be the result.

In my low handicap days these guys didn't like playing with me either because no matter what I would say it made them feel self-conscious and like they were burdening me or something. They had more fun without me.

There are dudes playing multiple times each week who feel accomplishment at breaking 110 on a course with a rating of 64. There is a whole thread here about breaking 100. Either there is an alarming tendency towards masochism among golfers (plausible I guess) or some people are able to enjoy things they aren't all that good at as long as they aren't made to feel self-conscious about their lack of skill.
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and to be fair, I have seen many people...low cappers, high cappers, in between...who are using the time to imbibe heroic quantities of cold adult beverages, make exceedingly inappropriate remarks to the cart girl, drop obscenely large tips and have a great time, some scoring low, some scoring high. For many, choking off a giant cigar, vaping, maybe a little "Oregon tobacco" are just as much a part of the game for them as drive-pitch-two tap par. Their enjoyment of the game has nothing to do with their talent.

I play a few times a year in a group of between 8 and 16 people depending on which round of the weekend that plays what they like to call "street golf" with loud music, lots of Titos doubles, lots of side bets, lots of smack talk. There are guys shooting anywhere from a 68 to a 104 and all having a great time. And it makes for some great stories like the time someone ran full speed...let me re-phrase that, full so drunk he could barely walk speed...from the green to the cart to change the excellently timed "put your back into it" lyrics and the mom and her two pre-teens biked by...


I am sure that group is not hugely popular with some other grops because a made putt with money on the line might get a cheer that echoes over 3-4 holes...but their is no doubt everyone is having a fantastic time.
 
Molten said:
I came to a strange realization today - I want to stop complaining about pace of play when we are, maybe, 20 minutes over or less. I’ve already devoted a large chunk of time to playing a sport I love. Sometimes it happens to run a bit over what I might think is ideal but I don’t run the world.

New attempt - if it isn’t excessive, I’ll just enjoy the birds.
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I've recently come to the same realization, brother, so I think we can start a support group...of at least 2. :D My dad is my main playing partner, so even more reason to adopt a better attitude and enjoy the time spent with him.
 
shanewu said:
I've recently come to the same realization, brother, so I think we can start a support group...of at least 2. :D My dad is my main playing partner, so even more reason to adopt a better attitude and enjoy the time spent with him.
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Support group started! I dig it
 
Stemmy66 said:
Um, definitely sure you deserved it....


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Muuuaaaahahhahahahaaaaa!!

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shanewu said:
I've recently come to the same realization, brother, so I think we can start a support group...of at least 2. :D My dad is my main playing partner, so even more reason to adopt a better attitude and enjoy the time spent with him.
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I agree. I play with my older brother almost every Saturday. He's soooooooo slooooooow! Him and his regular partner are slower than molasses. But, it's either don't let it bother me and enjoy some time spent with my brother, or don't play. I choose time spent with my brother. It's an extra half an hour spent with people you enjoy being around. Not a big deal, and they're too old and set in their ways to change anyway. Hell they don't even think they're slow.

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shanewu said:
I've recently come to the same realization, brother, so I think we can start a support group...of at least 2. :D My dad is my main playing partner, so even more reason to adopt a better attitude and enjoy the time spent with him.
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Molten said:
Support group started! I dig it
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I'm with y'all on this. #3!
 
JB said:
So based on that, nobody would ever quit because of pace haha.
I can tell you there were thousands of people that didn’t play on the 4th because of that very reason though. Hell it was all over social media.
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yes but there were also still people by the train load playing golf. If there wasnt there wouldnt have been any issues that day.

I still feel that most people who dont play golf dont consider our pace problems in thier decsion to get involved or not. And most of them wouldnt be playing even if a round never took more than 4.

I would bet there are also a percentage who leave/left the game due to feeling rushed too. especially in places (and there many) where the 5 hr or more rounds are not a norm and they are feeling pressure to rush.

There are also a whole world of people who fwiw do actually feel that playing in 4 especially less is a bit too rushed for their enjoyment. We just dont hear from them. And many people dont like speed demons who think and play like 4hrs is a disaster. point of all this is not to advocate for slow golf rounds but is just to note that very many people do try the game and find it too intimidatingly rushed by those already playing.

I would bet there might be as many (would have been avid participants) but who dont play because of that as there are those who left the game because of the slow play.

and before anyone (as usual) misunderstands this...Im not saying long slow rounds are good nor a problem. Only that even at the 4hr mark most who dont play still imo wouldnt and that there are some who dont because that feels too rushed at the places whos courses dont have a real pace problem.
 
rollin said:
yes but there were also still people by the train load playing golf. If there wasnt there wouldnt have been any issues that day.

I still feel that most people who dont play golf dont consider our pace problems in thier decsion to get involved or not. And most of them wouldnt be playing even if a round never took more than 4.

I would bet there are also a percentage who leave/left the game due to feeling rushed too. especially in places (and there many) where the 5 hr or more rounds are not a norm and they are feeling pressure to rush.

There are also a whole world of people who fwiw do actually feel that playing in 4 especially less is a bit too rushed for their enjoyment. We just dont hear from them. And many people dont like speed demons who think and play like 4hrs is a disaster. point of all this is not to advocate for slow golf rounds but is just to note that very many people do try the game and find it too intimidatingly rushed by those already playing.

I would bet there might be as many (would have been avid participants) but who dont play because of that as there are those who left the game because of the slow play.

and before anyone (as usual) misunderstands this...Im not saying long slow rounds are good nor a problem. Only that even at the 4hr mark most who dont play still imo wouldnt and that there are some who dont because that feels too rushed at the places whos courses dont have a real pace problem.
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Umm, Im no expert, but pace of play works two ways : )

And for the last 15 years, every survey done counts pace as a problem and cost, yet nobody on them has ever mentioned golf being too fast haha.
There are countless examples in this thread of people playing less because of pace (just as a small example). Golf as a whole has been down every year since the last couple, but yeah as a whole its probably because players are blazing and feeling rushed.
 
JB said:
Umm, Im no expert, but pace of play works two ways : )

And for the last 15 years, every survey done counts pace as a problem and cost, yet nobody on them has ever mentioned golf being too fast haha.
There are countless examples in this thread of people playing less because of pace (just as a small example). Golf as a whole has been down every year since the last couple, but yeah as a whole its probably because players are blazing and feeling rushed.
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i didnt say lol golf is down due to people feeling rushed. Only that there are new people who do feel rushed at the places where long slow rounds are not an issue and more normal rounds are played.
I dont think golf is down due to pace. Ive said from the start pace is far much more our realization than it ever is of those not playing. People who dont play are not going to flock to courses if every round everywhere never took more than 4. Golf participation will always go up and down due to far more other reasons than our pace problems. Economics and disposable income and disposable time are required. A lot of disposable time is required even if 4 hrs was a max for rounds.
Its likely 5 to 5.5 hrs door to door is still needed to play a 4 rnd for many people (maybe more). may half .5 hr drive or more both ways is an hr (or more). Arrive .5 hr before tee time to chek in and putt, warm up etc. Put all back in car and still drive back home. not even to mention the person putting there things away and showering and changing after they get back home. Its likely 5 to 5.5 of disposable time is required considering everything involved even in a 4hr round. And not even considering those who have to drive more than 30 minutes.

The rounds that take an hr longer are bad I get it and i dont like it either. It was a regular norm for me where i use to live. But that hr is not at all a main reason for golf participation as it requires lots of disposable time either way. and It doesnt happen everywhere anyway. those courses i use to play were always crwoded for all those years and still today those same 5 or more hr rounds are still playing and still crowded.

Imo the percentage difference in over all participation would barely be enough to make a noticeable difference if 5hr rounds didnt exist. Most folks who dont have the time dont have enough of it anyway. We shouldnt keep golf going in the longer direction of course. Its not an "Ok thing imo. But i reall dont beleive its any main reason for golf particpation lacking. That imo is far more econmics and general interest as well. Golf had its slow rounds during the influx and all the people still played anyway.
 
I want to say pace of play is much better then 20 years ago in my area. However, my groups overall tolerance of waiting (may or may not be slow play) is much less. Recently one of the guys in my foursome went home after 9 holes.

Some of it is expectations. We play winter golf rounds at about 3.5 hours and this pace has become our normal pace. Put us on a Saturday 4.75 hour round and we go crazy.

One of the courses we play in Lexington KY has tried to renumber all the tees to get people to play shorter tees with theory play will be faster. That appears to me a complete failed idea.
 
rollin said:
i didnt say lol golf is down due to people feeling rushed. Only that there are new people who do feel rushed at the places where long slow rounds are not an issue and more normal rounds are played.
I dont think golf is down due to pace. Ive said from the start pace is far much more our realization than it ever is of those not playing. People who dont play are not going to flock to courses if every round everywhere never took more than 4. Golf participation will always go up and down due to far more other reasons than our pace problems. Economics and disposable income and disposable time are required. A lot of disposable time is required even if 4 hrs was a max for rounds.
Its likely 5 to 5.5 hrs door to door is still needed to play a 4 rnd for many people (maybe more). may half .5 hr drive or more both ways is an hr (or more). Arrive .5 hr before tee time to chek in and putt, warm up etc. Put all back in car and still drive back home. not even to mention the person putting there things away and showering and changing after they get back home. Its likely 5 to 5.5 of disposable time is required considering everything involved even in a 4hr round. And not even considering those who have to drive more than 30 minutes.

The rounds that take an hr longer are bad I get it and i dont like it either. It was a regular norm for me where i use to live. But that hr is not at all a main reason for golf participation as it requires lots of disposable time either way. and It doesnt happen everywhere anyway. those courses i use to play were always crwoded for all those years and still today those same 5 or more hr rounds are still playing and still crowded.

Imo the percentage difference in over all participation would barely be enough to make a noticeable difference if 5hr rounds didnt exist. Most folks who dont have the time dont have enough of it anyway. We shouldnt keep golf going in the longer direction of course. Its not an "Ok thing imo. But i reall dont beleive its any main reason for golf particpation lacking. That imo is far more econmics and general interest as well. Golf had its slow rounds during the influx and all the people still played anyway.
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Either you skimmed this thread or are just going to say the same thing you say in every thread about pace haha. I still love you rollin.

People are not talking as much about the round being 5 hours instead of 4.5. People are talking about golf being less fun because it is more time siting and waiting than it is actually playing. People have left and continue to over it. In my opinion thinking that is not real, when both the NGF and others have said it is, is sticking one's head in the sand because "their location is not bothered" rather than dealing with the reality that golf has faced over the last 15 years.
 
I think someone needs to like to be outside and active to enjoy golf. if you don't then the view of standing around grows. one way to avoid the concept of standing around is to walk which is the only way I like to play. walking eats up some of the waiting time.

On July 4 got my 18 year old son to play his first real round with me and my father and friend. He walked and never said a word after about pace of play and we did some weighting. On the way home, he mentioned costs and many of his friends could not afford to play. so his barrier to playing and bringing his friends into it was cost.
 
JB said:
Either you skimmed this thread or are just going to say the same thing you say in every thread about pace haha. I still love you rollin.

People are not talking as much about the round being 5 hours instead of 4.5. People are talking about golf being less fun because it is more time siting and waiting than it is actually playing. People have left and continue to over it. In my opinion thinking that is not real, when both the NGF and others have said it is, is sticking one's head in the sand because "their location is not bothered" rather than dealing with the reality that golf has faced over the last 15 years.
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i did skip some this thread from my last post but read alot of it. But in that case I can say this. most anytime anyone waits becomes an annoying problem for that person. It also happens in rounds that are 4 hrs too and people still get bothered. If we are not talking specific long rounds then we can say there is a pace problem in most any rounds but that is mostly then just a personal pace issue. Its always about me (meaning any of us) and what suits us. anything outside of that for most of us is considered an annoyance or an unwanted scenario we have to put up with right, wrong, or indifferent. There are faster and slower players always even at the 4 and 4.5 hr round and heck even within the 3.45 round. Whenever anyone waits on anyone its usually an unwanted pain and not desired. No one wants to be delayed in most anything even at the grocery store line..LOl or at a red light.

Unless groups are seperated more than far enough golf is most the time (even at the 4hr round) going to have some waiting involved. especially if quicker players are there as well. i think its kind of the nature of the game itself to a certain degree as we all move about in a none synced pace. Unless im misunderstanding the point, are we not only looking to do away with the 5hr round (which would be wonderful imo) but now also do away with any waiting anywhere? And that is why golf is down?

Im not suggesting pace and slow rounds are not an isuue. obviously they are and they can be for me too. I just dont think our pace problems is making or breaking the games over all participation to near the degree of which vs the many other far greater reasons for it.
 
Acesteve said:
I think someone needs to like to be outside and active to enjoy golf. if you don't then the view of standing around grows. one way to avoid the concept of standing around is to walk which is the only way I like to play. walking eats up some of the waiting time.

On July 4 got my 18 year old son to play his first real round with me and my father and friend. He walked and never said a word after about pace of play and we did some weighting. On the way home, he mentioned costs and many of his friends could not afford to play. so his barrier to playing and bringing his friends into it was cost.
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walking imo is good i like to and rather walk any day. Knock on wood i hope im able to for a very long time.
 
Acesteve said:
I think someone needs to like to be outside and active to enjoy golf. if you don't then the view of standing around grows. one way to avoid the concept of standing around is to walk which is the only way I like to play. walking eats up some of the waiting time.

On July 4 got my 18 year old son to play his first real round with me and my father and friend. He walked and never said a word after about pace of play and we did some weighting. On the way home, he mentioned costs and many of his friends could not afford to play. so his barrier to playing and bringing his friends into it was cost.
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My entire reason for taking up golf in my 30's was to find a pleasant and non-boring way to get regular physical activity in my life. So I always, always walk and my desire to *move* is probably why a 4 or 4-1/2 hour round of golf seems such a ripoff. At 4-1/2 hours there's actually more standing around than walking.

Which is why I can't quite parse the frequent comments here along the lines of, "I don't mind being out there 4-1/2 hours as long as we can keep moving and not stand around". How can you take 4-1/2 hours to play a course that's walkable in 3 hours without an hour and a half of standing around? Do you walk laps around the tee box while waiting for the group ahead to clear the fairway?
 
Regarding the frequent survey responses about "takes too long" and "cost", I think that's not entirely about the pace of play itself. Every single thing about the way some modern courses are set up and managed seems designed to keep golfers on the property as long as possible. There's one really nice (formerly private, now semi-private) course that I love playing in terms of the experience from tee to green on the actual course.

But a few years ago they built a new clubhouse and moved the pro shop from right next to the practice green and first tee about 250 yards around on the back side of the clubhouse on the lower level. Then they rearranged the parking so you park another 100-200 yards from the clubhouse.

So now you park your car, either walk 1/4 mile to the pro shop or wait on an attendant to pick you up in a cart. Once you pay it's back up the hill and around the 'house to get to the practice green (don't even ask about the driving range which is a long way!). Then another 100 yards walk to find the starter and be sent off to the first tee which is no longer right by the starter.

Want a quick bottle of water or rest room break at the turn, then you'll be covering several hundred yards by the time you leave the 9th green and arrive at the 10th tee. Which does wonders for pace of play.

This place is a somewhat spread out residential development course and is quite hilly. So it's always going to take 4 hours or unless you are a quick player in a cart. And years ago that's what it generally took. The quick rounds were 3:50 or slow, weekend mornings maybe 4:00 or 4:10. But now that they've spread everything out, unless you are in a cart there is literally no way to arrive, sign in, play and get back to your car is under 5 hours. Usually longer than that because the round itself is often 4-1/2 hours.

And if you want to eat afterward, the only food service is sit-down at tables with tablecloths and servers that do the whole "My name is James and I'll be taking care of you today, what can I bring you from the bar while you look at the menu" thing. Sheesh, I just finished a 4-1/2 hour round of golf, I want a cheeseburger with fries and a cold beer, James. Hop to it!

The place is obviously designed for people wanting to be there for 6 hours and to spend $20 a person for food and drinks after, in addition to the (actually fairly reasonable) greens fee. A lot of the "takes too long and costs too much" feedback may be influenced by newcomers to the game encountering version of this sort of place.
 
here is a comment that I do not recall seeing addressed.

I recently played 2 rounds solo, 1 with 2 of us, and one with 4. The times were 2:32, 2:47, 3:37 and 4:42.

In the two solo rounds the courses were underplayed and I passed through 2 and 3 groups respectively. I did have some waiting time as I try not to push groups, hanging well back from the tee boxes, etc as I know I play faster than most when left to my own devices. The 2:32 was walking, the 2:47 with a cart and most of the time discrepancy was wait time on groups.

The 3:37 was as a twosome at a course where tee times were every 8 minutes. Hilariously, a twosome that had been trailing us but hanging back allowed themselves to be invited to join us on 18 and I commented "this group ahead of us is like molasses, we are not going anywhere if you want to play in with us." And it felt that way. One group had dropped off at the turn and we had been waiting on them every hole since 10. They were a foursome. We were a twosome playing poorly. I shot a 91 and doubt seriously Dave broke 110. Yet if you look at the time...3:37 is a very respectable time in my humble yet accurate opinion. But it FELT slow because we were waiting on every shot, every hole. There was a group in front of the group in front of us at the very least and pretty sure it was like that all along the course, I did not see a lot of holes in their tee sheet.

It felt long not because of how long it took but because of the waiting between shots which was, at least in part, because there were two of us. Note that we took time to do all the little niceties...refilling divots on the tee box, I emptied both sand bottles in the cart, we repaired many, many more divots than we made, we hacked our way around the course...case in point, uphill 227 yard par 3 with bunkers short left and right. Dave cannot drive it and by skill definition alone laid up, although not intentionally. I also laid up because I executed one of the worst swings of my life, dribbling a 3h about 15 yards. I then shanked a 7i pin high but wide right, hit a pitch shot into the sand, came out and two putted for a not very proud of it 6, won the hole by a stroke, and we had to wait to tee off. It just takes 4 people longer to tee off, move to their second shot, wait for the green to clear, and hit their approach whether they move at a good pace or not...and as mentioned, they had to wait, it is not like they were behind.

In the foursome, it was a 7:30ish tee time on a holiday (July 4th) so you know going in it will not be fast. We were paired with a couple guys we did not know, very friendly, cool dudes. We had to wait on several holes but because there were 4 of us the waits were not as long as the wait when there were two of us even though the round was nearly an hour longer. It just plain takes 4 people more time to play a hole than 3, 3 more than 2 and 2 more than 1 (yes, their are exceptions but as a general observation, this is accurate. I have been around 2-somes that played slower than foursomes and been stuck behind them. Since they were very elderly, could barely move and I was just glad they were still on the course instead of sitting in their house waiting to die, I held my irritation in check. But I also skipped them at the first opportunity which hilariously upset them. They did not want to let anyone play through but also did not want anyone to skip them.

Anyhow, the point is a shorter round can feel longer and a longer one shorter, and sometimes, I emphasize sometimes, this might be because of group sizes and the realities of it flat out takes a larger number of people longer no matter how much move to the ball, line your putt while others are taking their shot, etc a person does.
 
darthweasel said:
here is a comment that I do not recall seeing addressed.

I recently played 2 rounds solo, 1 with 2 of us, and one with 4. The times were 2:32, 2:47, 3:37 and 4:42.

In the two solo rounds the courses were underplayed and I passed through 2 and 3 groups respectively. I did have some waiting time as I try not to push groups, hanging well back from the tee boxes, etc as I know I play faster than most when left to my own devices. The 2:32 was walking, the 2:47 with a cart and most of the time discrepancy was wait time on groups.

The 3:37 was as a twosome at a course where tee times were every 8 minutes. Hilariously, a twosome that had been trailing us but hanging back allowed themselves to be invited to join us on 18 and I commented "this group ahead of us is like molasses, we are not going anywhere if you want to play in with us." And it felt that way. One group had dropped off at the turn and we had been waiting on them every hole since 10. They were a foursome. We were a twosome playing poorly. I shot a 91 and doubt seriously Dave broke 110. Yet if you look at the time...3:37 is a very respectable time in my humble yet accurate opinion. But it FELT slow because we were waiting on every shot, every hole. There was a group in front of the group in front of us at the very least and pretty sure it was like that all along the course, I did not see a lot of holes in their tee sheet.

It felt long not because of how long it took but because of the waiting between shots which was, at least in part, because there were two of us. Note that we took time to do all the little niceties...refilling divots on the tee box, I emptied both sand bottles in the cart, we repaired many, many more divots than we made, we hacked our way around the course...case in point, uphill 227 yard par 3 with bunkers short left and right. Dave cannot drive it and by skill definition alone laid up, although not intentionally. I also laid up because I executed one of the worst swings of my life, dribbling a 3h about 15 yards. I then shanked a 7i pin high but wide right, hit a pitch shot into the sand, came out and two putted for a not very proud of it 6, won the hole by a stroke, and we had to wait to tee off. It just takes 4 people longer to tee off, move to their second shot, wait for the green to clear, and hit their approach whether they move at a good pace or not...and as mentioned, they had to wait, it is not like they were behind.

In the foursome, it was a 7:30ish tee time on a holiday (July 4th) so you know going in it will not be fast. We were paired with a couple guys we did not know, very friendly, cool dudes. We had to wait on several holes but because there were 4 of us the waits were not as long as the wait when there were two of us even though the round was nearly an hour longer. It just plain takes 4 people more time to play a hole than 3, 3 more than 2 and 2 more than 1 (yes, their are exceptions but as a general observation, this is accurate. I have been around 2-somes that played slower than foursomes and been stuck behind them. Since they were very elderly, could barely move and I was just glad they were still on the course instead of sitting in their house waiting to die, I held my irritation in check. But I also skipped them at the first opportunity which hilariously upset them. They did not want to let anyone play through but also did not want anyone to skip them.

Anyhow, the point is a shorter round can feel longer and a longer one shorter, and sometimes, I emphasize sometimes, this might be because of group sizes and the realities of it flat out takes a larger number of people longer no matter how much move to the ball, line your putt while others are taking their shot, etc a person does.
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Good point about feelings of pace. Often longer rounds can feel faster than they were and longer ones can feel quicker. I suppose technically pace vs time to play are actually two different things. Though we do refer to it as the same when we generally converse.

I disagree that maximizing time efficiency matters not if with 4.
Certainly 4 will take longer than two regardless and assuming all things being equal. But this is why it does matter to then do things as time efficient as practical. We need to then maximize the use of the time in between everything instead of letting it waste. Imo it becomes even more important because of the fact that 4 does take longer. Taking longer and also allowing time to go unused and be wasted then takes even longer and hence then we begin to have a problem. With 3 other people having to do their thing we should all be taking advantage of that extra time to do everything we can to be efficient and then ready.
 
First tee first hole. Already backing up.

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Johan185 said:
First tee first hole. Already backing up.

Friday Golf
2a1d61aaef2c6c19b47700b8d12289a7.jpg


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What course?

Looks like admiral baker in San Diego

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