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Is pace of play *actually* hurting the game?

I'm too isolated to know if it keeps people from playing. I will say this though, I think hearing people complain about pace might be more discouraging to new golfers than anything. I am not a slow player (3:30ish a round), but I'm not a good player either. I don't know how many strokes it will take me to get around the course. Usually it's a lot. While I'm not slow, I don't like playing speed golf either. I avoid crowded courses. I try to pick tee times with the most gaps around it and hope no one else shows up.

When I first started playing, my buddy and I were at a local muni. We were waling and the duo in front was in a cart. We could always see them in front us. The marshall comes up with a nasty attitude, telling us to speed up. I never played there again. Golf already didn't have the reputation of being welcoming and that almost made me never want to play again. Luckily I had better experiences at other places.
 
When it takes 6 hours to play a round of golf, its a problem. Not everyone has all day.
 
pmm21 said:
But it sounds like it doesn't keep you from playing, or turn you away from the game permanently, thus not contributing to the decline.

Posted by my thumbs.
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I'd argue that, simply by having this discussion on an internet golfing forum, you're talking to about as close as amateur playing golf has to a rabid fanbase. There's not a lot that's likely to stop most of us from playing golf.

That being said, I don't play golf as often as I'd like because of the investment of time. So it's hurting the game in the sense that it is depriving local courses of my hard earnt cash.
 
For me I get frustrated with slow play. When you take 10 shots to only reach the green and another 4 or 5 to get the ball in the hole there a huge problem.
Or if your a single hitting it in the fairways and a foursome ahead of you does not let you play through. Yeah that happens quite a bit here


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Do I care about 5 hours if I'm constantly moving forward? Probably only afterwards. Now if I'm constantly waiting, then yeah I'll be agitated. 5 hrs is 5 hrs, but one is more enjoyable than the other.

Do I enjoy a super short round that takes less than 3 hrs? It's nice. But unless I'm playing at an odd time by myself it's not going to happen often.

It's all a balance. I do think people play less due to amount of overall time it takes to play especially on courses that get backed up a lot.
 
The more people who walk away from golf due to the pace of play then eventually pace of play won't be an issue.
 
Is pace of play *actually* hurting the game?

While I think the time in general, not necessarily slow play of that pace, is the biggest problem for people who don’t want to play for time constraints...I do think places with constant slow play can hurt those courses, which hurts golf. We’ve had plenty of courses close recently, so anytime a few people don’t play because of slow play, it does hurt golf IMO because it will start to add up. If people played faster would those courses stay open? Who knows. Might be able to figure that out. But I think any course around here is only a few bad years of it from being in a similar place. There are some places people avoid like the plague during middle weekend times because it just brings the course to a crawl.
 
It’s a huge problem. People need to play with a purpose and look at golf as as athletic endeavor, and not expect to be carted to their balls. Way too many lazy golfers.


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pmm21 said:
I have never heard of anyone not play because of this.

Yes an annoyance, but a hindrance to the growth of the game? I don't see it.

Posted by my thumbs.
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It is more of a course issue. While some people are going to golf no matter what on a Saturday they are far more likely to avoid a course that is known to be slow.
 
ntanygd760 said:
It is more of a course issue. While some people are going to golf no matter what on a Saturday they are far more likely to avoid a course that is known to be slow.
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Right. And presumably play somewhere else (right?) That's what I do.

Posted by my thumbs.
 
Paladin said:
I'd argue that, simply by having this discussion on an internet golfing forum, you're talking to about as close as amateur playing golf has to a rabid fanbase. There's not a lot that's likely to stop most of us from playing golf.

That being said, I don't play golf as often as I'd like because of the investment of time. So it's hurting the game in the sense that it is depriving local courses of my hard earnt cash.
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Solid argument. Thanks!

Posted by my thumbs.
 
pace was always far more an issue for those already playing it than it ever was for those wanting to or deciding to seek it out. I use to live in a place where gods honest truth if on the weekend and even a relatively early time we were done in 5 it was considered good. % and a half and even 6 was quite normal there. And for all those years (decades) it was always just as crowded and people always joined the sport anyway.

I do believe there area small percentage who left the game because of it. But that's far and very few between. Most people who don't play don't really know about the slow play issues. Its far much more the issue for those already playing. Most non (or future would be) players who are currently not playing are not doing so for a number of reasons and the slow play issues we face is not at all imo any major reason. Golf takes time and always did. It always requires significant disposable time and money and also a general interest in wanting to take it up. Our slow play issues are has little to no baring on more people playing.

Slow play existed before and during the influx and yet the game still had the greatest growth in its modern history anyway.

Also slow pace problems in many places are exaggerated. That happens for many reasons. For one thing whenever its slower than ones liking it becomes a slow pace problem even if its not all that slow. That goes on in so many places that it over exaggerates pace issues. yes I know there are places with real slow pace issues. As said I use to live in one of them. But that's not at all everywhere yet most places have the same complaints anyway.

I can go on and on about this. In the end I will confident to say if golf never took more than 4 hrs anywhere ever it would make a very small difference (maybe even negligible one) as to how many people play it vs how many do now. It wouldn't even make a noticeable dent. A 4hr round sgtill requires time to get to the course before tee time and maybe some extra early for warming up and putt practice and then of course time to pack up and get back home. Even a 4hr round can consume 5 to 6 hrs of ones day. Chances are most people who don't have that kind of disposable time or choose not to use theirs for golf are not going to do it whether the rounds are 4 hrs or 5 hrs. It simply wont matter much imo as for the game gaining participants or not. And besides everyone can simply leave whenever they want or have to anyway.

For the most part pace is really only a problem for existing players and will not have any significant measurable affect on new participation and very few (tinist percentage when vs the masses who play) may have left the game because of it.
 
On the courses I play, normal pace of play is 4 to 4:30. That's without having to wait anyone nor keeping anyone waiting. I don't know if it's slow or not. We always play ready golf and walk with good pace. Having trouble seeing how one could play those courses under 3h without running.

I agree with rollin; slow pace is not deciding factor for those that are thinking to start golf. 3-5 hours is a lot of time for non-player it makes little to no difference if it's 3 or 5. Same applies to people "quitting golf due to time constraints". It actually doesn't make a lot of difference, it's still lot of time if one has other responsibilities like family. Playing golf is always an investment of time and money. Very personal if it's good or bad one. I admit it's annoying when you have to wait.

One thing about research; you get the results you want by addressing the "correct" questions. If for example people are quitting golf because they no longer have time for it and they are asked reasons: slow play, course condition or cost of play. They will answer slow play as it's the only option reflecting their time constraints. They would still quit golf even if the rounds were 3h as they don't have time for it.
 
What is an acceptable pace of play? 3 hours, 3:30, 3:45, 4? Walking v. riding? Twosome or more? From leaving the house to returning to it, what is an acceptable amount of time to allot to a round?
 
Parrot said:
What is an acceptable pace of play? 3 hours, 3:30, 3:45, 4? Walking v. riding? Twosome or more? From leaving the house to returning to it, what is an acceptable amount of time to allot to a round?
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This is why I don't believe it is as much about the amount of time away, as it is about the amount of time golfers are spent sitting waiting on tee boxes and in fairways to hit shots. Nobody likes to play golf when they have 10 minute waits constantly. There isn't a governing body in golf that does not believe that we have a pace issue. Correcting it is the problem because as I mentioned earlier, there are virtually no ramifications for playing slow, and nobody thinks they are slow.
 
JB said:
This is why I don't believe it is as much about the amount of time away, as it is about the amount of time golfers are spent sitting waiting on tee boxes and in fairways to hit shots. Nobody likes to play golf when they have 10 minute waits constantly. There isn't a governing body in golf that does not believe that we have a pace issue. Correcting it is the problem because as I mentioned earlier, there are virtually no ramifications for playing slow, and nobody thinks they are slow.
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Is no waiting the only acceptable pace? A couple of minutes here or there? I agree 10 minutes on every shot is unacceptable. Rather than try to insert waiting times in each situation, I’m just addressing it in terms of pace of play.

This is just my observation. The view of what golf is has changed. When I started, it was a way to relax. So, folks weren’t fast. But we still played a country club 18 in less than 4-4:15. Tee times were 10 minutes apart.

The first club I joined in Dallas, pace of play average on the weekend was 4.5 to 5 early morning to 5.5 plus after about 9 am. Tee times were 8 months mutes apart and you went off in groups of 4 or 5 until late in the day on Saturday and Sunday. This is a recipe for disaster on even a not so difficult course when you have 2-3 beverage carts running. The pro wouldn’t (couldn’t?) enforce pace of play on certain groups but he’d hammer hell out of new or less influential members and their groups. Some of them would argue and raise hell to the point the pro relented. Many times, their kids saw and experienced this, as well as the pro saying he can’t make those members play quicker. It definitely effected my enjoyment of the game but not enough to run me off.

When I joined another club after moving back home, pace of play was 4.5ish but with an intentionally small membership it wasn’t an issue. Across the street at a semi-public executive course, pace was bad because tee times were 7 minutes apart and it was affordable. Pace at a regulation public course not far away was a little longer. It had 10 minute tee time intervals and 2 par 3s in the first 4 holes and back to back reachable par 5s on both sides.

Now, I play a university-municipal course. Students come out to drink beer and whack a ball around. I’ve had to wait on slow players. I don’t like it. I get the complaints. If my group can play through or just skip a hole, we’ll do it. But we try to remember that we’re there to enjoy playing, not play as fast we can. Pace of play reminders help but that’s only as good as it is if players activate the GPS system in the cart.

All along the way, the play quicker drums beat more loudly.

All that to say, it’s not just golfers who cause slower play. The lack of a standard (everyone seems to do their best to meet a time deadline) plays a part. Trying to cram as many players onto the course as possible every hour plays a part. Pros scared to address slow play with influential members or, in my case now, the course manager (we don’t have a pro) will not address it with city or university officials, and older players. Teaching kids and setting a good example of a good pace, cart etiquette, etc, will help. Most will just repeat what they saw as a kid, or that their friends are doing. I also believe that until the governing organizations start penalizing the big names in a meaningful way, a lot of recreational golfers (a few times a month) or players just coming to the game are just going to emulate the pros.

In the end, I guess if I come to a point where I have to play as fast as possible, and lose the relaxation I seek, I’ll likely be selling stuff.
 
Parrot said:
Is no waiting the only acceptable pace? A couple of minutes here or there? I agree 10 minutes on every shot is unacceptable.

This is just my observation. The view of what golf is has changed. When I started, it was a way to relax. So, folks weren’t fast. But we still played a country club 18 in less than 4-4:15. Tee times were 10 minutes apart.

The first club I joined in Dallas, pace of play average on the weekend was 4.5 to 5 early morning to 5.5 plus after about 9 am. Tee times were 8 months mutes apart and you went off in groups of 4 or 5 until late in the day on Saturday and Sunday. This is a recipe for disaster on even a not so difficult course when you have 2-3 beverage carts running. The pro wouldn’t (couldn’t?) enforce pace of play on certain groups but he’d hammer hell out of new or less influential members and their groups. Some of them would argue and raise hell to the point the pro relented. Many times, their kids saw and experienced this, as well as the pro saying he can’t make those members play quicker. It definitely effected my enjoyment of the game but not enough to run me off.

When I joined another club after moving back home, pace of play was 4.5ish but with an intentionally small membership it wasn’t an issue. Across the street at a semi-public executive course, pace was bad because tee times were 7 minutes apart and it was affordable. Pace at a regulation public course not far away was a little longer. It had 10 minute tee time intervals and 2 par 3s in the first 4 holes and back to back reachable par 5s on both sides.

Now, I play a university-municipal course. Students come out to drink beer and whack a ball around. I’ve had to wait on slow players. I don’t like it. I get the complaints. If my group can play through or just skip a hole, we’ll do it. But we try to remember that we’re there to enjoy playing, not play as fast we can. Pace of play reminders help but that’s only as good as it is if players activate the GPS system in the cart.

All that to say, it’s not just golfers who cause slower play. The lack of a standard (everyone seems to do their best to meet a time deadline) plays a part. Trying to cram as many players onto the course as possible every hour plays a part. Pros scared to address slow play with influential members or, in my case now, the course manager (we don’t have a pro) will not address it with city or university officials, and older players. Teaching kids and setting a good example of a good pace, cart etiquette, etc, will help. Most will just repeat what they saw as a kid, or that their friends are doing. I also believe that until the governing organizations start penalizing the big names in a meaningful way, a lot of recreational golfers (a few times a month) or players just coming to the game are just going to emulate the pros.

In the end, I guess if I come to a point where I have to play as fast as possible, and lose the relaxation I seek, I’ll likely be selling stuff.
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Yes it’s not just golfers. As I posted above the average time per hole vs average tee time spacing causing a problem. With that said to think the pace of play is not or has not caused a decline is just not accurate.

As you said waiting is not as fun. So if you know a course leads to that, you will either seek alternatives or not play. That is a problem and immediately shows a decline.

And the biggest one is that there is no ramifications for pace issues at a cause level and nobody thinks they are.
 
Is pace of play *actually* hurting the game?

I believe that pace of play effects current golfer satisfaction, but I don’t know any golfers that quit the game because rounds went from 4 hours to 5 hours. I know many that have quit courses over pace of play to go elsewhere. That in itself is detrimental to the game, but I am not sure 5 hour rounds versus 4 is why people leave the game. My best friend uses pace of play as a reason he doesn’t play anymore, but if I ask him to play nine, he doesn’t have time for that either. He has 3 young kids in youth sports...

I think there are more that give up the game or don’t start the game because they don’t have time for a normal round. I know I went through a 10 year period where my rounds went from 50/year to 5. It was because we started a family, we were spending time with the children, I was coaching the kids on Saturday and going to church on Sunday, etc.

I feel places like Top Golf are such a good opportunity to get people into the game. When people go there and have fun for two hours, then maybe they will give the real game a try. Courses should work on nine hole rates and push how that can be done in roughly the same amount of time as a range session. So many courses around me don’t allow walking. In my opinion, the game could grow by pushing nine holes and walking in the park for two hours. There is one very successful par 3 course by me that does this. I would love to see some course have 27 holes and nine is only for walking. Just push the heck out of going for a fun walk. But I am getting way off topic...




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Before pace of play can blamed on the players, check to see the tee sheet interval times. IF the course is sending out groups every 7min, I think that's were the problem arises...rather than sending groups out every 10mins, thus compensating for some slow group play, and ensuring the players on the course don't get bottle necked... Like today busy US Open Sat, why not ask the time intervals before you book, it might show that busy course at 7min intervals is 5+hr round. Sat I sometime play Lost City private course that a buddy gets me on. There players go off 15mins or longer. Round 3:15-3:30h.
 
Yes it is an issue.
The time spent over the shot is not a problem, rather, it is is the being unprepared to play when it's your turn. Those of us who are prepping for the next shot while our playing partners are making their shots know what I mean.
I have no problem with someone taking 30 seconds over the ball if they are starting the clock quickly.
 
Yes slow play is the worst. You’re playing a sport, to not have control of the pace you do it at is very disruptive. Why do you think some relief pitchers purposely have funky deliveries or strange pre-pitch routines? To throw you off
 
Pace of players is broad term and encompasses more than just the final time it takes to play a round. I think the lack of playing “ready golf” or using common sense during a round is hurting more. This doesnt mean for players to rush or not have fun either, but more of being aware of your situation.

Examples would be

if someone in you group is looking for a ball and one or two guys at helping him look for it do you need a 4th? Hit your shot, get that done and help if you want, but you’ve hit already instead of waiting for it to be “your turn”

Same with balls that are OB, just drop nearest the point of entry and move on. Don’t make the guy go back to the tee or spot of the original shot and “re-tee/hit again” because it’s the rules. If it’s a tournament I get it, but a causal weekend round that’s a bit much imo.

If someone is struggling around the greens, tell them “pick it up” give them a double bogey and onto the next hole.

I think the pace of play gets wrapped up with other small issues throughout the round that are easily fixed and can help move the round along without “rushing” anyone or taking away from their golfing experience. Golf can be fun and at the same time being considerate of the situations and the players behind you.
 
I don’t know if pace of play is hurting the game. I’m sure there are people who don’t play anymore due to the time it wastes of their day to play.

I for one will not go back to courses if the round took me over 5.5 hours. Maybe I was spoiled playing golf growing up by playing a round in just over 4 hours. But that (5.5 hours) just takes too much out of my day, especially when it is done in the middle of the day.

So as you can imagine, there are quite a few courses in San Diego where I don’t play if I can’t get out early bird.
 
JB said:
I agree with this. Between management companies and online booking agents, the experience wanes. With that said as the link above illustrates, nobody ever thinks they are slow so that is part of the problem.

Play slow and hold up the whole course and what are the ramifications? A powerless ranger chirping at someone twice in 5.5 hours? Literally no penalty at all for killing a course for a day.
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Penalizing players is a double edged sword. You might get rid of those causing a constant problem, but are also directly contributing to the games decline by alienating those same players. What do you think about penalizing the course for non-enforcement rather than the player for slow play? Not sure how you'd do that though.
 
I haven't played a weekend round in years and that's only because I know I could get stuck behind slow pokes. I'd rather not play than have to wait out a 4;30-5 hour round.
 
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