Is pace of play *actually* hurting the game?

[Space Bandito]

It’s a huge problem. People need to play with a purpose and look at golf as as athletic endeavor, and not expect to be carted to their balls. Way too many lazy golfers.


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This is an interesting take. Do you think it wouldn't be an issue if golf were a walking sport in the US, as it is in Europe? Are they pace issues there?

 

[mpeterson]

Yes it is a problem. It’s less about the “I’m going to be gone for an extra 30 minutes” than it is the “I’m going to waste a day playing golf when half of the time is waiting for the group in front of me to speed up.

People don’t like to sit and wait 5-10 between shots. If it took 5 hours but was steadily moving, the pace would not be an issue.

I agree with the last comment - I have played 4:30 rounds that felt shorter because we just kept moving. I'm not sure you can get to 5 hours and have that happen. It's more flow than pace.

The problem is, one group who just doesn't care can completely screw up the course. We had a twosome in a cart in front of us (a walking foursome) that we were waiting on. That can't happen.

 

[Space Bandito]

pace was always far more an issue for those already playing it than it ever was for those wanting to or deciding to seek it out. I use to live in a place where gods honest truth if on the weekend and even a relatively early time we were done in 5 it was considered good. % and a half and even 6 was quite normal there. And for all those years (decades) it was always just as crowded and people always joined the sport anyway.

I do believe there area small percentage who left the game because of it. But that's far and very few between. Most people who don't play don't really know about the slow play issues. Its far much more the issue for those already playing. Most non (or future would be) players who are currently not playing are not doing so for a number of reasons and the slow play issues we face is not at all imo any major reason. Golf takes time and always did. It always requires significant disposable time and money and also a general interest in wanting to take it up. Our slow play issues are has little to no baring on more people playing.

Slow play existed before and during the influx and yet the game still had the greatest growth in its modern history anyway.

Also slow pace problems in many places are exaggerated. That happens for many reasons. For one thing whenever its slower than ones liking it becomes a slow pace problem even if its not all that slow. That goes on in so many places that it over exaggerates pace issues. yes I know there are places with real slow pace issues. As said I use to live in one of them. But that's not at all everywhere yet most places have the same complaints anyway.

I can go on and on about this. In the end I will confident to say if golf never took more than 4 hrs anywhere ever it would make a very small difference (maybe even negligible one) as to how many people play it vs how many do now. It wouldn't even make a noticeable dent. A 4hr round sgtill requires time to get to the course before tee time and maybe some extra early for warming up and putt practice and then of course time to pack up and get back home. Even a 4hr round can consume 5 to 6 hrs of ones day. Chances are most people who don't have that kind of disposable time or choose not to use theirs for golf are not going to do it whether the rounds are 4 hrs or 5 hrs. It simply wont matter much imo as for the game gaining participants or not. And besides everyone can simply leave whenever they want or have to anyway.

For the most part pace is really only a problem for existing players and will not have any significant measurable affect on new participation and very few (tinist percentage when vs the masses who play) may have left the game because of it.

This is very much along the lines of what I was thinking.

 

[mpeterson]

I have never heard of anyone not play because of this.

Yes an annoyance, but a hindrance to the growth of the game? I don't see it.

Posted by my thumbs.

I've absolutely walked off a course after an hour+ to play 3 holes because I was waiting 10 minutes on shots. And not returned to courses with that kind of play. Maybe that doesn't hurt "growing the game" but it might hurt courses. You can't get as many people through the course if pace is 5:30 or something. More greens fees if people are playing the correct pace.

 

[oiler3535]

For me I get frustrated with slow play. When you take 10 shots to only reach the green and another 4 or 5 to get the ball in the hole there a huge problem.
Or if your a single hitting it in the fairways and a foursome ahead of you does not let you play through. Yeah that happens quite a bit here

I agree with the latter point. I don’t necessarily agree with the former. I’ve played with many many people not coming close to breaking 100 (mostly women but not all) who are way faster than some of the scratch golfers I play with.

The more people who walk away from golf due to the pace of play then eventually pace of play won't be an issue.

That is an extremely good attitude to having public courses close and only being the sport of the rich.

 

[Space Bandito]

Yes it is an issue.
The time spent over the shot is not a problem, rather, it is is the being unprepared to play when it's your turn. Those of us who are prepping for the next shot while our playing partners are making their shots know what I mean.
I have no problem with someone taking 30 seconds over the ball if they are starting the clock quickly.

I think you're absolutely right, not playing ready golf is detrimental. But to what end? Are you tossing your sticks and taking up lawn bowling?

 

[bigapplehacker]

This is an interesting take. Do you think it wouldn't be an issue if golf were a walking sport in the US, as it is in Europe? Are they pace issues there?

Only have very limited experience playing abroad, but I do remember that my round at St. Andrews was played with locals and the pace was very fast. We were the first group out and played in about 3 hours max.

Golf is a game that should be walked (briskly!) if your health allows.


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[oiler3535]

This is an interesting take. Do you think it wouldn't be an issue if golf were a walking sport in the US, as it is in Europe? Are they pace issues there?

Ya, it’s quite the hot take they’ve got. I would say Europe is likely to have fewer pace issues only because there aren’t huge gaps between holes on many courses. Idk if any actual difference in time, but that could be one thing. Plus the number of times and holes with cart path only slows things down. I only care when forced, but play at home all the time with carters and I’m never being waited on.

 

[bigapplehacker]

Ya, it’s quite the hot take they’ve got. I would say Europe is likely to have fewer pace issues only because there aren’t huge gaps between holes on many courses. Idk if any actual difference in time, but that could be one thing. Plus the number of times and holes with cart path only slows things down. I only care when forced, but play at home all the time with carters and I’m never being waited on.

I have no problems with carts if the riders are willing to walk a little.

The idea of a rider walking 30 yards to his ball while his cart partner sizes up and hits his shot is a foreign one to many. Instead the second guy checks his phone while the first guy hits, and waits to be delivered to his ball (which they have not found yet).


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[Space Bandito]

I have no problems with carts if the riders are willing to walk a little.

The idea of a rider walking 30 yards to his ball while his cart partner sizes up and hits his shot is a foreign one to many. Instead the second guy checks his phone while the first guy hits, and waits to be delivered to his ball (which they have not found yet).


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That practice is incredibly frustrating.

Posted by my thumbs.

 

[Chisag]

... I played 107 rounds in 117 days in Phoenix his past winter, most of them as a single. Being paired up with slow groups is even worse than playing behind them because I can see the groups piling up and know their pain. One thing I have found out is slow players have no idea what slow play is. They usually never wait, get to tee off and hit shots at their own pace and have no reason to pay any attention to anyone else on the course. I had one instance playing with a slow group where three 4somes were behind us on the tee of a par 5. We "caught up" to some young guys that were drunk, blaring their music and spending much more time socializing than hitting shots, always driving their carts to every shot together instead of gong to their own balls. They were also hitting several shots. My group was furious which I found laughable and said "Now you know what it is like for the 3 groups behind us". Of course they looked back for the first time and took offense saying they were playing golf and just had a few bad holes looking for balls and taking penalty shots. NOTHING like the guys in front of them that had no respect for the game. I told them s-l-o-w is s-l-o-w to the group behind whether they are talking or just taking forever to hit a shot.

... I have been playing as a single for many years now after going to the PGA Show every winter and spending several weeks after playing golf and I have never, and I mean NEVER played with a slow group that thought they were slow. Most saying people are trying to play too fast. I am reminded of George Carlin that said " Have you ever noticed that anybody driving (playing golf) slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"

 

[oiler3535]

I have no problems with carts if the riders are willing to walk a little.

The idea of a rider walking 30 yards to his ball while his cart partner sizes up and hits his shot is a foreign one to many. Instead the second guy checks his phone while the first guy hits, and waits to be delivered to his ball (which they have not found yet).


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Fair enough. What you said originally came across very much as if you wanted carts banned because walking is an integral part of the game. Which I’m not against in competition. But for the vast majority of golf I disagree strenuously with it; out for fun 1st.

 

[bigapplehacker]

Fair enough. What you said originally came across very much as if you wanted carts banned because walking is an integral part of the game. Which I’m not against in competition. But for the vast majority of golf I disagree strenuously with it; out for fun 1st.

Oh I would indeed like carts banned if it were up to me. Not silly enough to expect it to happen on any course that I can routinely afford to play (except Black).


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[seastrunk]

I agree with others that it is a matter of respect for the game and the other players in the group and on the course. Slow players hardly ever think they are slow. Most of the time it is other people's problems that cause them to be slow. Many need to understand pace of play, ready golf, time spent in woods looking for a ball, and that you need to keep pace with the group in front of you. Sometimes even when you do all the above, for some reason, it is back up at the course. Just show respect for the game and others and slow play will get fixed.

 

[seastrunk]

Oh I would indeed like carts banned if it were up to me. Not silly enough to expect it to happen on any course that I can routinely afford to play (except Black).



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This is crazy. All the people like me who cannot carry the bag because of a broken back and all courses would need caddies like in Europe. You would eliminate 90% of the recreational golfers who cannot walk for various reasons. It would not help slow play as people who walk still spend time looking for balls, hit several shots, etc. Just because you walk does not mean you are a fast golfer.

 

[bigapplehacker]

This is crazy. All the people like me who cannot carry the bag because of a broken back and all courses would need caddies like in Europe. You would eliminate 90% of the recreational golfers who cannot walk for various reasons. It would not help slow play as people who walk still spend time looking for balls, hit several shots, etc. Just because you walk does not mean you are a fast golfer.

Of course, if you have health reasons that’s one thing.

If the default were walking, where everyone healthy enough to walks walks, then 6 hour rounds would not exist. Just my opinion and solely an academic discussion.


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[JB]

Penalizing players is a double edged sword. You might get rid of those causing a constant problem, but are also directly contributing to the games decline by alienating those same players. What do you think about penalizing the course for non-enforcement rather than the player for slow play? Not sure how you'd do that though.

Wait. How can you penalize the course for not enforcing pace of play, but not penalize players that are a problem because they will be alienated? The course would be doing what you say is an issue, to avoid penalty. And frankly the course is penalized as less people are coming out, and based on the closures across the country over the last 15 years, they know that it has at least been a contribution to it.

The course sets a rule of the longest it should take to play a round of golf. That is their discretion. That does not mean nobody should finish before that allotted time, its like a minimum speed sign on a highway. Unfortunately instead it is viewed as a speed limit by far too many.

Reprimanding players that are continuing to slow the course down is not a double edged sword to me. Doing nothing, which is largely what is done now is a major problem. It can be put aside with blinders but when half the golfing population says pace is an issue (according to far too many articles) and the golfing population continued to shrink from 2011 to 2017, something has to be done. The good news is that the USGA in all of their issues, believes it to be a problem and works to market alternatives like tee it forward. The PGA of America, believes it to be a problem and is working with booking systems hopefully alleviate. The entire symposium in Tokyo, was about future technology that will hopefully help in some ways alleviate the problem.

With all of that said, if people don't believe there is an issue, or are never told, or flat out don't care, then the game will continue to lose players.

Easy question. You pull up to the course and they say we can squeeze you in, but it's going to be 5+ hours are you staying? Most casual golfers or even more than recreational are saying no. That is where the problem exists.

 

[mpeterson]

This is crazy. All the people like me who cannot carry the bag because of a broken back and all courses would need caddies like in Europe. You would eliminate 90% of the recreational golfers who cannot walk for various reasons. It would not help slow play as people who walk still spend time looking for balls, hit several shots, etc. Just because you walk does not mean you are a fast golfer.

Not to mention what feels like the majority of newer courses here are not built at all with walking in mind.

I do think bad cart use is a major cause of some slowdowns, but something tells me those guys would probably be slow if they were on foot. And taking longer to get to the ball in the process.

 

[bigapplehacker]

Not to mention what feels like the majority of newer courses here are not built at all with walking in mind.

I do think bad cart use is a major cause of some slowdowns, but something tells me those guys would probably be slow if they were on foot. And taking longer to get to the ball in the process.

Good point re new course design. It’s blasphemy to the game and a silver lining to these aberrations being turned into subdivisions.

Re second point - a lot of those guys wouldn’t be on the course if they had to walk because they are not there to play golf.


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[Space Bandito]

Wait. How can you penalize the course for not enforcing pace of play, but not penalize players that are a problem because they will be alienated? The course would be doing what you say is an issue, to avoid penalty. And frankly the course is penalized as less people are coming out, and based on the closures across the country over the last 15 years, they know that it has at least been a contribution to it.

The course sets a rule of the longest it should take to play a round of golf. That is their discretion. That does not mean nobody should finish before that allotted time, its like a minimum speed sign on a highway. Unfortunately instead it is viewed as a speed limit by far too many.

Reprimanding players that are continuing to slow the course down is not a double edged sword to me. Doing nothing, which is largely what is done now is a major problem. It can be put aside with blinders but when half the golfing population says pace is an issue (according to far too many articles) and the golfing population continued to shrink from 2011 to 2017, something has to be done. The good news is that the USGA in all of their issues, believes it to be a problem and works to market alternatives like tee it forward. The PGA of America, believes it to be a problem and is working with booking systems hopefully alleviate. The entire symposium in Tokyo, was about future technology that will hopefully help in some ways alleviate the problem.

With all of that said, if people don't believe there is an issue, or are never told, or flat out don't care, then the game will continue to lose players.

Exactly why I said I'm not sure how you could do it. I suppose it would come down to what kind of penalty we're talking about for players. Loss of golf privileges for repeat offenders?

I can see a lot of folks getting scared off by the threat of penalty if rumors swirl around a particularly strict set of rules for pace.

I recall, when I was just starting out, playing at a popular course that had several reviews regarding a mean marshal who was very stern regarding pace. Knowing I was an absolutely terrible player, and my friends worse, we were extremely nervous going into that round. We implemented a max score on each hole simply because we were afraid of being reprimanded for taking too long.

It didn't make for a very fun round.


Now, I admit, this was my third or fourth time ever playing and I didn't know what to expect. I see it differently now, but I can see how that irrational fear might lead someone away from picking up the game.



Posted by my thumbs.

 

[JB]

Exactly why I said I'm not sure how you could do it. I suppose it would come down to what kind of penalty we're talking about for players. Loss of golf privileges for repeat offenders?

I can see a lot of folks getting scared off by the threat of penalty if rumors swirl around a particularly strict set of rules for pace.

I recall, when I was just starting out, playing at a popular course that had several reviews regarding a mean marshal who was very stern regarding pace. Knowing I was an absolutely terrible player, and my friends worse, we were extremely nervous going into that round. We implemented a max score on each hole simply because we were afraid of being reprimanded for taking too long.

It didn't make for a very fun round.


Now, I admit, this was my third or fourth time ever playing and I didn't know what to expect. I see it differently now, but I can see how that irrational fear might lead someone away from picking up the game.



Posted by my thumbs.

It should be very simple. You fall behind the allotted pace, you are asked to speed up. If you still stay out of place, you must pick up your ball and move forward to where you are back in place. There should be time checkpoints every 6 holes (3 times a round) to make sure people are not falling too far. It only takes a single foursome to kill an entire course on a busy day.

The problem is the entitlement of "I paid my fees, I get to play all of the holes". If this becomes commonplace in golf, you would have far less people discussing pace of play and either finding other issues not to play or coming back to the game. I think you would find more golfers are for more pace checkpoints than less.

 

[mpeterson]

Exactly why I said I'm not sure how you could do it. I suppose it would come down to what kind of penalty we're talking about for players. Loss of golf privileges for repeat offenders?

I can see a lot of folks getting scared off by the threat of penalty if rumors swirl around a particularly strict set of rules for pace.

I recall, when I was just starting out, playing at a popular course that had several reviews regarding a mean marshal who was very stern regarding pace. Knowing I was an absolutely terrible player, and my friends worse, we were extremely nervous going into that round. We implemented a max score on each hole simply because we were afraid of being reprimanded for taking too long.

It didn't make for a very fun round.


Now, I admit, this was my third or fourth time ever playing and I didn't know what to expect. I see it differently now, but I can see how that irrational fear might lead someone away from picking up the game.


Posted by my thumbs.

This is why a lot of clubs score weekly games stableford/quota - it essentially implements a max score and widens the range of people who can participate.

 

[bigapplehacker]

It should be very simple. You fall behind the allotted pace, you are asked to speed up. If you still stay out of place, you must pick up your ball and move forward to where you are back in place. There should be time checkpoints every 6 holes (3 times a round) to make sure people are not falling too far. It only takes a single foursome to kill an entire course on a busy day.

The problem is the entitlement of "I paid my fees, I get to play all of the holes". If this becomes commonplace in golf, you would have far less people discussing pace of play and either finding other issues not to play or coming back to the game. I think you would find more golfers are for more pace checkpoints than less.

I think that’s a great idea. And the course could provide clear guidance as to when this policy is in effect. You wouldn’t need to do this all the time, and those that have any issue with it can play another course or another less busy time at the same course.


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[Space Bandito]

It should be very simple. You fall behind the allotted pace, you are asked to speed up. If you still stay out of place, you must pick up your ball and move forward to where you are back in place. There should be time checkpoints every 6 holes (3 times a round) to make sure people are not falling too far. It only takes a single foursome to kill an entire course on a busy day.

The problem is the entitlement of "I paid my fees, I get to play all of the holes". If this becomes commonplace in golf, you would have far less people discussing pace of play and either finding other issues not to play or coming back to the game. I think you would find more golfers are for more pace checkpoints than less.

I am absolutely for them, so long as no one is commenting every 6 holes that I'm playing too quickly

Posted by my thumbs.

 

[Space Bandito]

This is why a lot of clubs score weekly games stableford/quota - it essentially implements a max score and widens the range of people who can participate.

I've never seen this. But I like it.

Posted by my thumbs.