Is pace of play *actually* hurting the game?

[tahoebum]

You know what though? Those weekends (and maybe some late day) golfing is often the only time most people can go. I mentioned earlier the pace where I use to live was indeed an area where 5 to 5 and a half was quite normal. BUt we had no choice because either we put up with it or we didnt play at all. And yet everyone still played, the courses were still jam packed with 4somes and new people still came. It sucked at times no doubt but everyone still played anyway. If you were pressed for time you simply left after 9 or whenever it was convenient for you to leave.

I personally feel 3 hr rounds for a 3some or a 4some is too fast. I know a lot of people claim they golf in 3 to 3.5 but I also know a lot of people are more obsessed and proud with playing fast than they are with the actual playing. Golf for most is a recreation Imo and wasnt meant to be rushed but was meant to be a casual enjoyment. I know people say they play that fast and never feel rushed at all doing it but at some point when does it go from being the leisurely recreational enjoyment that it is suppose to be to then feeling like a work assignment or a chore? I know some people love to play that way but For many people a big part of their choice of recreation which we call golf is to be able to soak in the surroundings and the environment without it feeling like your on a mission.

Through the years i have played many rounds well under 4 and near the 3.5 hr mark. And fwiw Ive done so while shooting in the upper 80's and also plenty while shooting near or even over 100 too. On a side note, thats why I know that tees and poor play dont at all have to be a pace issue. But back to my point, I feel when finishing that quick it sort of takes away from the enjoyment too. Imo its like "my golf is done for the day".
One time that I was with a group where as we finished in about 3.5. And so one the guys says aloud to the whole group "now thats how to get it done!" And so my response to him was, "I didnt know I came to play just to get it done and over with"

3 to 3.5 hours does not involve any rushing for me or my golf buddies as a threesome or foursome. We just play ready golf and are less deliberate on the greens than many golfers. In the UK most golfers walk and the normal time for a round of golf is 3:45 or less. Sadly the norm at many public U.S. courses has become 4:20 and at manny places 5 hours plus can be the norm. If you consider travel time to and from the course it easily can take 6-7 hours which makes many golfers I know to choose not to play that day.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

I don't have "issues" with people who use carts. Not most of 'em anyway.

I have issues with the way that the golf cart has (most places) become the tail that wags the dog. From courses built in a way that makes them unplayable on foot to courses which are perfectly walkable but require everyone to be in a cart anyway to the twosome ahead of me circling aimlessly for ten minutes "looking for their ball" instead of getting out and actually trying to find it.

And there's a special level of hell reserved for the guy who rides his motorcycle back and forth to the golf course every day but then asks for a red-flag "handicap" cart so he can drive it literally up onto the fringes of the green and make sure he never has to walk more than 20 paces. If you're able-bodied enough to handle a 700lb Harley you're able-bodied enough to walk from the cart path to the green and back.

 

[radiman]

Pace of play is most definitely a problem in some places. My friend and I teed off at 1:30. I knew it would be a slower round because of our chosen time of day. When we were getting ready, I saw a foursome tee off ahead of us. We get out on the course and were immediately on their tail. No big deal. I understand that we aren't going to break any speed records. As we get through the 4th, 5th, and 6th holes, we notice that the group ahead of them is already a couple of holes ahead of them. As we make the turn, the group ahead of them is long gone. We waited every shot on the entire back nine. We finished our round in 4:15. It felt like 6 though. There was a long line of groups behind us and there was one foursome holding up the pace. While I understand that they were at the stated pace, they were still holding up play. I don't expect them to play speed golf. But, I do expect them to allow the faster groups through. It's one of the course rules. Unfortunately, the course doesn't have a ranger, so we just had to deal with it.

It's an awareness issue. The slow groups don't ever seem to be aware of their surroundings. They are only concerned about their game with no regard to the people behind them. Add to that, our course uses 8 minute gaps in tee times. So, when they do fill the tee sheet, the sheer number of golfers dictates that the round will be slow. For the first time, I am seriously pondering a membership at the one affordable private club in town.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

3 to 3.5 hours does not involve any rushing for me or my golf buddies as a threesome or foursome. We just play ready golf and are less deliberate on the greens than many golfers. In the UK most golfers walk and the normal time for a round of golf is 3:45 or less. Sadly the norm at many public U.S. courses has become 4:20 and at manny places 5 hours plus can be the norm. If you consider travel time to and from the course it easily can take 6-7 hours which makes many golfers I know to choose not to play that day.

There's one club near me, over a century old, which has always prided itself on having a lot of good players and on not having slow play. Twenty years ago when I'd go play there with my buddy who was a member, we'd go out in foursomes for the daily dogfight game and if it took longer than three hours there was grumbling. If it had ever taken 3-1/2 hours back then, I'll bet some guys would walk in without finishing the round.

Fast forward two decades. Same club, same course, in many cases a lot of the same members. It is 4 hours more often than not at weekends and on the rare occasion a Saturday/Sunday round finishes in 3-1/2 hours people commented about how fast we got around out there today.

Every place I know of, the norm has changed. A three-hour round was once considered perfectly normal for a twosome or threesome if the course wasn't crowded. And four-plus hours was something that happened in tournaments. Now wanting to play in three hours marks you as some kind of speed demon. And I'm talking courses with an average green-to-next-tee distance of well under 100 yards.

 

[rollin]

Ugh, ran into the course pro at Subway Saturday evening and he talked me in to slipping out Sunday afternoon. I only had time for a quick 9 because I had to meet a client. Quick was not happening. After 2 hours, I was still on the 8th hole waiting forever on every single shot for 10-15 minutes. I finally left without even finishing 8. I had things to do and I just can not play that slow. There are definitely times pace of play is a major disruption and that was one. I don't know how anyone can get in any sort of rhythm at that sort of pace.

Then how do pros get into a rhythm?

 

[radiman]

Then how do pros get into a rhythm?

The pros complain about their pace of play as well. They are also professionals who are the best golfers in the world.

 

[MrDC]

It would be nice if courses managed their fields better, it seems rangering is a thing of the past, I rarely see anyone coming to the rescue of a course crawling because of hackers.

And maybe they should use technology that forces groups to finish a hole in a certain amount of time, if not they have to pick up and leave the hole, obviously it would really help the problem if it could be done.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

It would be nice if courses managed their fields better, it seems rangering is a thing of the past, I rarely see anyone coming to the rescue of a course crawling because of hackers.

And maybe they should use technology that forces groups to finish a hole in a certain amount of time, if not they have to pick up and leave the hole, obviously it would really help the problem if it could be done.

It doesn't matter if it is "rangers" or technology or the honor system. Not one course in 1,000 is going to tell a paying customer that they have to skips holes, much less leave the course.

 

[rollin]

I don't have "issues" with people who use carts. Not most of 'em anyway.

I have issues with the way that the golf cart has (most places) become the tail that wags the dog. From courses built in a way that makes them unplayable on foot to courses which are perfectly walkable but require everyone to be in a cart anyway to the twosome ahead of me circling aimlessly for ten minutes "looking for their ball" instead of getting out and actually trying to find it.

And there's a special level of hell reserved for the guy who rides his motorcycle back and forth to the golf course every day but then asks for a red-flag "handicap" cart so he can drive it literally up onto the fringes of the green and make sure he never has to walk more than 20 paces. If you're able-bodied enough to handle a 700lb Harley you're able-bodied enough to walk from the cart path to the green and back.

How do you know? What does riding a motorcycle have to do anything with what may be someones issue as for not being able to walk so well? And also....would you rather have that same person take too long of a time to walk or rather have him use the cart so that he deosnt have to slow things down via the extra walking. Your not making much sense with that. And your also assuming one is capable just because he rides a motorcycle. There are plenty things that different physical ailments allow one to do while certain things not so much. You cant ever assume just because someone does one thing ok that they can also then do other things well.

 

[rollin]

The pros complain about their pace of play as well. They are also professionals who are the best golfers in the world.

and just like many of us, being slow doesnt matter when its their own turn.

 

[Golf Ghost]

It doesn't matter if it is "rangers" or technology or the honor system. Not one course in 1,000 is going to tell a paying customer that they have to skips holes, much less leave the course.

We were in a different financial position than most courses, but did do it. Both skip holes and leave.

 

[radiman]

and just like many of us, being slow doesnt matter when its their own turn.

Pretty broad stroke. There are pros that play fast. There are amateurs that play fast and with a purpose.

Edit: I will add this. Fast is probably the wrong choice of words. It's not a matter of playing fast, it's a matter of not playing slow. Play with a purpose, keep a steady pace. It's not hard. I don't care what you think pace is or should be. If there's a faster group behind you and room ahead of you, you let them through. If every group that comes up behind you is faster, that means you are playing too slow. Pretty simple.

 

[JB]

It doesn't matter if it is "rangers" or technology or the honor system. Not one course in 1,000 is going to tell a paying customer that they have to skips holes, much less leave the course.

Actually there are. Highlands of Elgin where we held a THP Event has told players to pick up and they can come back to the holes they missed after their round because of the backup.
Hammock Beach Conservatory does it routinely.
Caledonia told a group in front of us at a THP Event that they had to pick up and move ahead two holes.
These are just off the top of my head. They do exist, and while it's not the norm, it should be if it is causing major slowdowns.

 

[rollin]

3 to 3.5 hours does not involve any rushing for me or my golf buddies as a threesome or foursome. We just play ready golf and are less deliberate on the greens than many golfers. In the UK most golfers walk and the normal time for a round of golf is 3:45 or less. Sadly the norm at many public U.S. courses has become 4:20 and at manny places 5 hours plus can be the norm. If you consider travel time to and from the course it easily can take 6-7 hours which makes many golfers I know to choose not to play that day.

Ill go back to something i mentioned earlier. Imo if a golf round never took more than 4 hrs anywhere ever, it would not make any real measurable difference in golf participation.

 

[JB]

Ill go back to something i mentioned earlier. Imo if a golf round never took more than 4 hrs anywhere ever, it would not make any real measurable difference in golf participation.

Its easy to state that, when its an impossibility, but when pace of play is one of the top things mentioned as why people either exit the game or play less, odds are very real that you are incorrect.

 

[rollin]

Actually there are. Highlands of Elgin where we held a THP Event has told players to pick up and they can come back to the holes they missed after their round because of the backup.
Hammock Beach Conservatory does it routinely.
Caledonia told a group in front of us at a THP Event that they had to pick up and move ahead two holes.
These are just off the top of my head. They do exist, and while it's not the norm, it should be if it is causing major slowdowns.

Ive seen it done as well. Extremely rare but done. Unfortunately damage was already done by the time it was taken care of. But I suppose it prevented things from getting even worse.

 

[alexped2393]

Actually there are. Highlands of Elgin where we held a THP Event has told players to pick up and they can come back to the holes they missed after their round because of the backup.
Hammock Beach Conservatory does it routinely.
Caledonia told a group in front of us at a THP Event that they had to pick up and move ahead two holes.
These are just off the top of my head. They do exist, and while it's not the norm, it should be if it is causing major slowdowns.

What is a major slowdown? I've never even heard of this sort of thing, but I am in the UK.

When it's busy here it is generally because of a stacked tee sheet and "it is what it is". I think people put too much stock on 18 holes taking x amount of time, it really depends on the course, how hilly it is, distances between tee boxes etc etc. One course near me isn't particularly hard or long but it 100% takes 4 hours to play as a 2 or 3 some. Then some others can be raced around in 2 and a half hours without breaking a sweat.

Cart path only I feel really slows down a course, but most of the time I am walking with my push trolley or carrying.

 

[JB]

What is a major slowdown? I've never even heard of this sort of thing, but I am in the UK.

When it's busy here it is generally because of a stacked tee sheet and "it is what it is". I think people put too much stock on 18 holes taking x amount of time, it really depends on the course, how hilly it is, distances between tee boxes etc etc. One course near me isn't particularly hard or long but it 100% takes 4 hours to play as a 2 or 3 some. Then some others can be raced around in 2 and a half hours without breaking a sweat.

Cart path only I feel really slows down a course, but most of the time I am walking with my push trolley or carrying.

Seeing 3+ groups on a hole with two more waiting. Some courses pace the holes and hold groups accountable for sticking with it. Its less about the time it takes to play the course for many, and more about getting back into position when falling behind pace. If a course is a 4 hour course and groups are turning in 2:20, there is a major problem somewhere.

 

[Stryker]

Then how do pros get into a rhythm?

1. I am not a pro
2. I also have back issues that will bother me when I am standing around waiting.
3. Everyone gets into a rhythm differently. I never said nobody can, I said I don’t know how anyone can. Major difference.


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[Parrot]

Ugh, ran into the course pro at Subway Saturday evening and he talked me in to slipping out Sunday afternoon. I only had time for a quick 9 because I had to meet a client. Quick was not happening. After 2 hours, I was still on the 8th hole waiting forever on every single shot for 10-15 minutes. I finally left without even finishing 8. I had things to do and I just can not play that slow. There are definitely times pace of play is a major disruption and that was one. I don't know how anyone can get in any sort of rhythm at that sort of pace.

I get the point you are making but the math of waiting 10-15 minutes on every single shot for 2 hours through 7 doesn't work.

 

[rollin]

Its easy to state that, when its an impossibility, but when pace of play is one of the top things mentioned as why people either exit the game or play less, odds are very real that you are incorrect.

You right its probably not possible to truly know but If the average person doesnt have 6 hrs of disposable door to door time its very likely they dont have 5 either. Id bet the number of people who left the game due to pace is barely measurable among the total amount of people who play it. Ill bet far more measurable amount leave it due to it being too difficult a game vs it taking longer than it should. I think for many the game simply takes too long even when pace is not a real issue. It still takes hours door to door. We cant lump those people in when talking of pace hurting the game because that wouldnt be fair to do. The game itself does require a significant amount of disposable time no matter what.

 

[JB]

You right its probably not possible to truly know but If the average person doesnt have 6 hrs of disposable door to door time its very likely they dont have 5 either. Id bet the number of people who left the game due to pace is barely measurable among the total amount of people who play it. Ill bet far more measurable amount leave it due to it being too difficult a game vs it taking longer than it should. I think for many the game simply takes too long even when pace is not a real issue. It still takes hours door to door. We cant lump those people in when talking of pace hurting the game because that wouldnt be fair to do. The game itself does require a significant amount of disposable time no matter what.

You are viewing it as hours, rather than the idea that it is less fun for people to stand around before they hit every shot.
Its not about the extra 45 minutes away from home for most. Its about not finding it enjoyable to wait.

 

[tahoebum]

Ill go back to something i mentioned earlier. Imo if a golf round never took more than 4 hrs anywhere ever, it would not make any real measurable difference in golf participation.

Maybe but we will never know as slow golf at public courses is as certain as death and taxes. I do know one thing, when golf is fast me and many of my buddies will play more than 18 holes. At least once a week I play 36+ holes and last week it only took 6.5 hours for 41 holes, about 10 minutes per hole. If golf took 4.5 hours, we would skip trying to play another 18 because the 5 minutes of waiting in between shots on each hole is not something any of us want to do. When the resort courses around here are dead after Labor Day, we will play 45 holes a day on the weekends and finish in less than 8 hours. These marathon days of golf with a handful of buddies are some of my favorite days of the year and these add another 30 rounds to my annual total over the years when I didn’t have access to faster play. More golf is a good thing!

 

[rollin]

Cart path only I feel really slows down a course, but most of the time I am walking with my push trolley or carrying.

I agree, that is one thing that always hurts pace whenever its the rule that day.

 

[radiman]

You right its probably not possible to truly know but If the average person doesnt have 6 hrs of disposable door to door time its very likely they dont have 5 either. Id bet the number of people who left the game due to pace is barely measurable among the total amount of people who play it. Ill bet far more measurable amount leave it due to it being too difficult a game vs it taking longer than it should. I think for many the game simply takes too long even when pace is not a real issue. It still takes hours door to door. We cant lump those people in when talking of pace hurting the game because that wouldnt be fair to do. The game itself does require a significant amount of disposable time no matter what.

Just speculation. I know quite a few people that don't play once they have kids or start a new career. Good players. The game didn't all of a sudden become more difficult for them. They don't have the necessary time to dedicate 4, 5, or 6 hours away from home anymore.