Is pace of play *actually* hurting the game?

[wubears71]

Seeing 3+ groups on a hole with two more waiting. Some courses pace the holes and hold groups accountable for sticking with it. Its less about the time it takes to play the course for many, and more about getting back into position when falling behind pace. If a course is a 4 hour course and groups are turning in 2:20, there is a major problem somewhere.

This!!! My home course sqeezes way too many golfers on the course when really busy. They have squeeze times, which means they put a group on the course at every hour - so there may be a 9:54 tee time and a 10:03 tee time, but they will "squeeze" a 4 some in at 10 AM. I don't agree with it, but in all reality, it doesn't make the course play any slower - we all still finish in the 4.5 hr suggested pace and it makes the course a few extra thousand dollars on a day. They will move groups in position when they start to fall behind - 1 hole behind and you will get moved to the next hole.

Ironically, it's the days where the course is 3/4 full that the pace becomes atrocious. There are just too many groups that fall behind and the course does not do a good job monitoring it. These are the days when there are 2-3 groups on the Par 5 13th, one in the fairway and one on the green and everyone is painfully waiting. These are the 5+ hour rounds that we get frustrated with and just stop enjoying the round. Hit, wait... hit, wait... hit, wait...
I actually played less rounds last year in over 5 years because I was not enjoying the game due to the wait.

 

[rollin]

Maybe but we will never know as slow golf at public courses is as certain as death and taxes. I do know one thing, when golf is fast me and many of my buddies will play more than 18 holes. At least once a week I play 36+ holes and last week it only took 6.5 hours for 41 holes, about 10 minutes per hole. If golf took 4.5 hours, we would skip trying to play another 18 because the 5 minutes of waiting in between shots on each hole is not something any of us want to do. When the resort courses around here are dead after Labor Day, we will play 45 holes a day on the weekends and finish in less than 8 hours. These marathon days of golf with a handful of buddies are some of my favorite days of the year and these add another 30 rounds to my annual total over the years when I didn’t have access to faster play. More golf is a good thing!

More han anything Im now simply just jealous that you can play as much as you do

 

[darthweasel]

Good comment. Is it the only course you play? Do you play elsewhere on Saturdays?

Posted by my thumbs.

as a general rule, if my group is playing I play where they are, if not I want to go here and play and work on specific things. right now my wedge game is ^&* so I want to go out, try to get within 75 and 100 out on every hole and play wedges. I will not be going there Saturday for that. It takes someone off the course on a Saturday. And because I have a variety of things I enjoy, at some point the guitar, piano or harmonica playing takes over and then I play less.

Here is where it matters: I am but one person. Golf does not care if I play or not.

BUT... When I don't head out, I don't call some of the various people I play with and for some of them, I am the motivating factor. If I don't get JJ or Gina or Jim or Dave or Phillip and Tracy or Jessica out...they don't go. So now 2-4 people are not going out on any given day that would have if I had gone. Not a lot of dollars...but you start losing the motivators around the edges, it shrinks the overall population of golfers. Less dollars are spent at the course. Courses start shutting down...as the one in my old home town just did specifically because people like me stopped going there.

It was not a great course but it was one of just 2 courses within 45 minutes. Small town of 9000 people, used to have a thriving mens club, thriving womens club. Lot of golfers. Now zero.


Overall, did that hurt golf? nope, still seeing some stacked tee sheets up here in Portland. Did it make a trickle dent in numbers playing? yes, that will grow as many people are moving there from Portland.

 

[tahoebum]

More han anything Im now simply just jealous that you can play as much as you do

Last year I only played 25 rounds. This year is my first full year of retirement and I’ve played 42 rounds and 39 rounds since our course opened April 19th. I’m guessing I’ll get to over 100 rounds by mid September which hasn’t happened since before I was married 25 years ago! Now I just need to get my index moving in the right direction...

 

[Parrot]

I have issues with the way that the golf cart has (most places) become the tail that wags the dog. From courses built in a way that makes them unplayable on foot to courses which are perfectly walkable but require everyone to be in a cart anyway

Maybe it's not now but, for a long time, for many public courses cart revenue was either the source of any profit it made or it was badly needed to meet the budget. Just another factor in how carts became so prevalent and at some courses, mandatory.

 

[darthweasel]

=.

On a separate note.....Top Golf has been mentioned in this thread a couple or so times. I think TG in itself is a pretty cool thing. However I do feel that if it has an affect on actual golf participation it will be much more a negative one than a positive one. Most Topgolf-ing from my experiences is much more a party eating/drinking/goofing atmosphere. People taking most that to then begin playing out on the courses would be an issue imo. Etiquettes including pace would all be affected in a very negative way.

.

my inlaws were with us recently and my wife wanted us to go out golfing on Memorial Day. I suggested they might have more fun at Top Golf. I wanted no part of 2 people that can't swing and one that barely can on the course. I had ulterior motives no doubt. I personally don't love Top Golf. But to get them involved in golf like Emily wanted, that seemed a good compromise.



We went there, they had a great time. My mother in law never cleared the netting on the fly. My wife did maybe 4 or 5 times...but didn't maybe 50 times. My father in law put about 70% of his shots in the "sand" to the left.

And had a FANTASTIC time sucking up the place. those balls they dribbled off the front went in the short hole. I was whacking balls from the left side just to be funny and see if I should stick a lefty club in my bag for those rare occasions.


And now my wife is, for the first time, seriously wanting to take lessons. We went to the driving range and worked on it, she is talking more about golf.


Anecdotal, but Top Golf CAN be a way to get people into it.


Side note; there are some TERRIBLE swings on display at Top Golf I am glad are not on the course...

 

[ProZoneGolf]

The find a lost ball 5min rule could be changed to drop were it crossed, 1 stroke penalty. No lookie, No going back.
Lets say there are 150 players on the course and 5% lose a ball, That equates to 7peepsx5min=35mins...some of the problem... besides a stacked tee sheet imo

 

[rollin]

my inlaws were with us recently and my wife wanted us to go out golfing on Memorial Day. I suggested they might have more fun at Top Golf. I wanted no part of 2 people that can't swing and one that barely can on the course. I had ulterior motives no doubt. I personally don't love Top Golf. But to get them involved in golf like Emily wanted, that seemed a good compromise.



We went there, they had a great time. My mother in law never cleared the netting on the fly. My wife did maybe 4 or 5 times...but didn't maybe 50 times. My father in law put about 70% of his shots in the "sand" to the left.

And had a FANTASTIC time sucking up the place. those balls they dribbled off the front went in the short hole. I was whacking balls from the left side just to be funny and see if I should stick a lefty club in my bag for those rare occasions.


And now my wife is, for the first time, seriously wanting to take lessons. We went to the driving range and worked on it, she is talking more about golf.


Anecdotal, but Top Golf CAN be a way to get people into it.


Side note; there are some TERRIBLE swings on display at Top Golf I am glad are not on the course...

It can i agree, but i just fear more negatives than positives as for that a large percentage of it will come with the Topgolf mindset and not with enough of what is best for the courses and the game.

 

[tahoebum]

The find a lost ball 5min rule could be changed to drop were it crossed, 1 stroke penalty. No lookie, No going back.
Lets say there are 150 players on the course and 5% lose a ball, That equates to 7peepsx5min=35mins...some of the problem... besides a stacked tee sheet imo

They already changed it to 3 minutes, BTW.

 

[5150]

Yes it is a problem. It’s less about the “I’m going to be gone for an extra 30 minutes” than it is the “I’m going to waste a day playing golf when half of the time is waiting for the group in front of me to speed up.

People don’t like to sit and wait 5-10 between shots. If it took 5 hours but was steadily moving, the pace would not be an issue.

This /\/\/\/\

Generally speaking, in my circles at least, the total length of the round doesn't really upset anyone. It's standing around waiting to hit a shot that gets people riled up.

I usually try to do something fun on the tee box like see who can chip their driver closest to the tee marker while we wait, or some other diversion.

To the OP's point: there are times when I wonder why we're all in such a hurry. If it's a nice day and I'm enjoying the company then I don't mind waiting now and then.

 

[Stryker]

I get the point you are making but the math of waiting 10-15 minutes on every single shot for 2 hours through 7 doesn't work.

I didn’t catch the slowest in the first hole. The ones in front of me were slow but then they caught even slower. So by the time I got to I would say 5 or 6 that’s when the long waits started.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[alexped2393]

Seeing 3+ groups on a hole with two more waiting. Some courses pace the holes and hold groups accountable for sticking with it. Its less about the time it takes to play the course for many, and more about getting back into position when falling behind pace. If a course is a 4 hour course and groups are turning in 2:20, there is a major problem somewhere.

Totally get the 3+ groups on one hole thing that sounds awful. The worst I've had with my group on the teebox is one group just leaving teebox, another has hit their second shot to a par 5 and another group is just walking onto the green

When this situation happens you almost feel guilty going for a green in 2 as you are holding up people behind you as you have had to wait for 2 groups to clear the green rather than one to clear the layup area.

 

[Canadan]

Yes it is a problem. It’s less about the “I’m going to be gone for an extra 30 minutes” than it is the “I’m going to waste a day playing golf when half of the time is waiting for the group in front of me to speed up.

People don’t like to sit and wait 5-10 between shots. If it took 5 hours but was steadily moving, the pace would not be an issue.

I am fully on board with this mentality.

Has never been about how long the round takes, always about how much I'm waiting that bothers me.

 

[wubears71]

When this situation happens you almost feel guilty going for a green in 2 as you are holding up people behind you as you have had to wait for 2 groups to clear the green rather than one to clear the layup area.

I completely understand that. Outside of one Par 5 on my home course, I can reach the other ones in two. There are plenty of times where I have perfect position into the green in 2 and I feel so bad waiting that I end up just hitting the short or mid iron to the layup area.

 

[Rusty Dave]

There’s one way to fix the problem, all the other stuff are band aids. Most recreational golfers don’t know the new rules or could care less.
Have a minimum of 4-5 marshalls on the course that are there to enforce the pace. That’s the only way IMHO.

 

[alexped2393]

There’s one way to fix the problem, all the other stuff are band aids. Most recreational golfers don’t know the new rules or could care less.
Have a minimum of 4-5 marshalls on the course that are there to enforce the pace. That’s the only way IMHO.

I'll be the thorn in your side. Who's paying for these extra marshals on smaller courses :arrogant:

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

How can I keep continuously moving and playing for 5 hours with no sitting and waiting? That's an oxymoron. If I can play the course in 3 hours but am stuck behind a group that's taking 5 hours, I will be waiting for a total of 2 hours. No way around it.

 

[Rusty Dave]

I'll be the thorn in your side. Who's paying for these extra marshals on smaller courses :arrogant:

Most of them are volunteers around here. They are retired and get free golf. But yes, I get it but honestly it’s the only way.

 

[rollin]

On another note i would really like to know who this person is that is causing all the slow play everywhere. I mean its obviously not me right? It also none of you right? (cause most of you are speed demons). Ive yet to play with anyone that doesnt complain of the pace of others nor point out the problems. We also all have the solutions to pace issues and can fix it in a second. No one ive ever met through all the years has ever not been in conversations as to what and why and how everyone else is doing to ruin pace. We are all efficient and we all play ready golf and absolutely none (zero) of what any of us ever do ever takes longer than it should. The slow play discussions go on prior to rounds of which they dont have time but somehow show up an hr or more before tee time to practice, during rounds, and then even also often enough after the round that they couldn't wait be done with because of time they dont have yet have the discussion while having the time to have beers in the clubhouse. But regardless of that, no one, not one single person was ever slow. i mean they couldnt be because they are discussing how slow things are all the time. If they were slow they wouldnt discuss it because it wouldnt seem slow to them.
So just where/who is this person that is causing all the slow play?

 

[Parrot]

I'll be the thorn in your side. Who's paying for these extra marshals on smaller courses :arrogant:

Give them free golf. I've been surprised at how many retirees want to do that job at my course because they would get free golf. And management - whether an actual pro or a course manager - has to back them up on the decisions the marshals make.

 

[wubears71]

I'll be the thorn in your side. Who's paying for these extra marshals on smaller courses :arrogant:

Haha. We can't even get people to buy a $6 bucket of balls for the range. Increasing each round by a few bucks will never fly. Heck, there were complaints when the "lunch special" went up $1 - 18 holes, with lunch for under $30 that is booked solid on a nice weekend at $80-$90 round prices.

 

[wubears71]

Most of them are volunteers around here. They are retired and get free golf. But yes, I get it but honestly it’s the only way.

Sorry - edit - my first part got deleted. The "free golf" marshals around me is what I was referring to, not your course free golf marshals.

And they suck at Marshalls because the courses give them absolutely no authority to enforce pace of play. The course doesn't want the golfnow, google review, yelp complaint about the crotchety old man forcing them to speed up when they paid "good money" for the round. After-all, they paid so it's their god given right to play at the pace they want to regardless of others.

 

[tahoebum]

Waiting between shots is the worst part of it especially when golf rarely should take more than 4 hours. I’ve played in two city league senior tournaments this year that were shotgun starts with one or two foursomes on each hole. This is a bunch of guys in their 50’s and 60’s taking more than an average amount of time on the greens with obviously zero gimmies but I finished in just under 4 hours the first event and 4:05 the second one. Had half the guys not been going through their full putting routine for every putt under 18”, these rounds would have been 3:45 or faster. If these tournaments averaged 4:40 rounds there is zero chance I participate in them.

I’m likely skipping the club championship this August because I’ve heard that it takes 5+ hours each day. I’d rather spend the day playing a 3 hour round at 7 am and then have the day to enjoy the jet skis and boat with my family and friends than suffer a slow round of golf in the middle of the day.

 

[alexped2393]

Most of them are volunteers around here. They are retired and get free golf. But yes, I get it but honestly it’s the only way.

I feel similarly. Haven't seen a marshal on a course for years and he only went out to make sure you had paid your way (pretty rough muni course where you could sneak on).

The only time to complain about slow play here is once you get back in and tell the pro shop. If they are members then the committee might have a word but every committee I've experienced is an old boys club where if you are one of them then you can do no evil.

 

[Canadan]

There’s one way to fix the problem, all the other stuff are band aids. Most recreational golfers don’t know the new rules or could care less.
Have a minimum of 4-5 marshalls on the course that are there to enforce the pace. That’s the only way IMHO.

I think one per side with the actual ability to tell people what's up would be sufficient... but here's the problem;

Good luck finding people willing to argue with golfers all day and get paid what little they get paid. Much easier to just let it ride and look important.